Is it possible to buy house and rent it to previous owner under HAP etc?

Donald Trump · 30-11-2019 1:30am #1

Suppose someone has their own house but is down on their bad luck financially.

Would it be possible to sell/transfer their house to someone else and then have the original owner apply for some rental assistance and just pay some rent to the new owner - if such an agreement was reached between them?

Dav010 · 30-11-2019 9:57am

Bank will insist on vacant possession, after sale completion it would be up to the buyer whether they want to rent. I can’t imagine it being a condition of sale that any buyer would agree to.

Gumbo · 30-11-2019 10:16am

Donald Trump wrote: »

Suppose someone has their own house but is down on their bad luck financially.

Would it be possible to sell/transfer their house to someone else and then have the original owner apply for some rental assistance and just pay some rent to the new owner - if such an agreement was reached between them?

Where will the cash from the purchase go?
Will the owner entitled to hap if they have this cash bundle?

Donald Trump · 30-11-2019 11:51am

Thanks for attempted replies but you are all giving me replies to questions I did not ask. I kept the original post short to keep it simple. I can't anticipate every possible scenario that other posters might imagine and include it in the details so I kept it succinct. Perhaps that meant it was unclear.

So if you are wondering about the buyers credit rating or whether they might need a mortgage - it is not relevant to the question. So you can assume it is not an issue

If you are wondering if the current owner would remain eligible for HAP if they had savings/cash then that is a different question. Assume that they would not have enough after debts are settled to put them over any limits

Similarly, if for whatever reason you imagine a scenario in which the new owner might want to replace the kitchen and have the previous owner move out during it, please ignore it for now.

My scenario is that person A owns a house today. They are having financial difficulties that won't be going away anytime soon. They receive no state help towards the mortgage. They will end up losing the house the way that things are going. Then tomorrow someone else buys the house (legitimately) and pays off mortgage. They will allow the previous owner to stay there with some rent. Can the original owner then apply for some kind of rent assistance to help pay rent to the new owner. New owner is not going to kick them out while they are getting assessed if it only takes a few weeks.

Please don't worry about the probability of this scenario in real life based on your own personal experiences. Assume that it is a possibility.

Gumbo · 30-11-2019 12:54pm

If they qualify for HAP under the hap requirements then they are fine. Please check the hap requirements for confirmation.

antoinolachtnai · 30-11-2019 1:16pm

This scheme is along the lines of what you might be thinking.

https://icarehousing.ie/

dennyk · 30-11-2019 1:33pm

In general, yes, there's nothing inherently impossible in such a scenario. The buyer of a house is free to agree to let the house to the seller following the sale. The former seller is now a tenant and is free to apply for HAP. Whether a buyer who would be willing (and able) to make such an arrangement could be found and whether the former seller would subsequently qualify for HAP assistance are separate questions, of course, but assuming both were true, it could be done. Whether such an arrangement would accomplish the ultimate goal of the seller (whatever that might be) is also an open question, of course.

Grumpypants · 30-11-2019 1:44pm

You can't rent a HAP house from a family member. But otherwise i guess if you can find someone with enough cash to buy the house and then rent it back to the person then it is possible.

Zenify · 30-11-2019 1:51pm

You are saying to ignore all the variables and keep it simple. Simple: if you are entitled to HAP obviously you can get HAP.

That seems to be the answer you want. However, you will encounter a lot of difficulties during this. Selling to connected parties and suspicions arising from the council to name a few.

Victor · 30-11-2019 2:01pm

This: https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/housing_assistance_payment.html says "You must be on the local authority’s housing list – which means that you qualify for social housing support." https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/local_authority_and_social_housing/social_housing_waiting_lists.html

I understand you can't be on the local authority’s housing list if you have previously owned a property. However, you should investigate this so see if it applies in this case.

Donald Trump · 30-11-2019 2:11pm

Victor wrote: »

This: https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/housing_assistance_payment.html says "You must be on the local authority’s housing list – which means that you qualify for social housing support." https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/local_authority_and_social_housing/social_housing_waiting_lists.html

I understand you can't be on the local authority’s housing list if you have previously owned a property. However, you should investigate this so see if it applies in this case.

Ok. So this is the kind of information that is really useful. If that is true then it appears that my scenario is not possible. Although it would seem to be unfair that someone who lost a house could never be placed on a housing list? Perhaps that is not correct?

[Deleted User] · 30-11-2019 2:18pm

Donald Trump wrote: »

Ok. So this is the kind of information that is really useful. If that is true then it appears that my scenario is not possible. Although it would seem to be unfair that someone who lost a house could never be placed on a housing list? Perhaps that is not correct?

In the scenario you have outlined the person hasn't lost a house. They have sold one.

Edit: one other thing to consider - will the property meet the required standards of the HAP scheme?

Donald Trump · 30-11-2019 2:23pm

pg633 wrote: »

In the scenario you have outlined the person hasn't lost a house. They have sold one.

What's the difference? In either case they have no money or assets now.

Donald Trump · 30-11-2019 2:37pm

pg633 wrote: »

Edit: one other thing to consider - will the property meet the required standards of the HAP scheme?

What's this related to? Is it an inherent property of the house such as location or something that can be remediated such as not being clean enough or having a washing machine? If it is the former then it is relevant. If it is the latter then it is irrelevant to my question

Empty_Space · 30-11-2019 2:37pm

Op lives up to name .
ðŸ˜‚

Gumbo · 30-11-2019 3:17pm

Donald Trump wrote: »

What's this related to? Is it an inherent property of the house such as location or something that can be remediated such as not being clean enough or having a washing machine? If it is the former then it is relevant. If it is the latter then it is irrelevant to my question

OP. You are on an internet board. You will get various answers.
If your responses continue along the line of this then you won’t get many replies.

The official answer lies with the HAP scheme in Limerick.

handlemaster · 30-11-2019 4:56pm

So it seems the OP is asking can you sell your property and then apply for social assistance fr housing.. ?? Interesting , I hope this is not possible but you never know there are alot of people who think they are owed housing in this country.

OP you are coming across as aggressive in your replies., might want to chill before hitting the keyboard

Donald Trump · 30-11-2019 6:15pm

Empty_Space wrote: »

Op lives up to name .
��

Nah, just plenty of people jumping to tell me facts that aren't pertinent to the question. I appreciate the input and all but if it's not relevant to what I am asking they might as well be jumping in and telling me what the capital of Mongolia is.

Maybe you live up to your own name too ;-)

Victor · 30-11-2019 6:22pm

Oh, if the new owner is directly related to the current owner, there may be an issue in getting a payment.

Donald Trump · 30-11-2019 6:29pm

handlemaster wrote: »

So it seems the OP is asking can you sell your property and then apply for social assistance fr housing.. ?? Interesting , I hope this is not possible but you never know there are alot of people who think they are owed housing in this country.

OP you are coming across as aggressive in your replies., might want to chill before hitting the keyboard

Why do you hope it's not possible? Do you want the person to be thrown out on the street and left to die? Would that get your jollies off for you?

Person A has a mortgage but is in a situation where they will likely be on disability benefit for the rest of their lives. The person has no immediate family to speak of.

Some different scenarios:
1) Person B pays their mortgage for them for the rest of their life
2) Person B buys the house and lets person A live there for the rest of their life for the HAP rent. (There is no equity in the house, at least not when other debts are paid)
3) Person A stops paying mortgage and drags out through the courts until evicted and dragged (or wheeled) out by bailiffs by their hair. Then gets put into either a hospice or some other state provided care

Scenario 1 is neither sustainable long term or realistic. person A and Person B are not related and B has never lived in the house etc.

Strange the amount of sneery people who would seem to prefer scenario 3 so that a person who is already dealing with a lot could have the last of their dignity stripped away.

Mod note
Uncivil words removed.
Please refrain from posting this again.

Limpy · 30-11-2019 6:36pm

A family in the southwest bout half an estate worth of houses (council houses) and rented them back to the owners. Instead of paying the council they payed the family.

Thats different From what your doing but the owners you buy From would have to explain to the social welfare how they are in a situation to receive HAP.

Gumbo · 30-11-2019 6:36pm

Now op, I suggest the following :

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/housing_assistance_payment.html

http://hap.ie/

handlemaster · 30-11-2019 8:01pm

Donald Trump wrote: »

Why do you hope it's not possible? Do you want the person to be thrown out on the street and left to die? Would that get your jollies off for you?

Person A has a mortgage but is in a situation where they will likely be on disability benefit for the rest of their lives. The person has no immediate family to speak of.

Some different scenarios:
1) Person B pays their mortgage for them for the rest of their life
2) Person B buys the house and lets person A live there for the rest of their life for the HAP rent. (There is no equity in the house, at least not when other debts are paid)
3) Person A stops paying mortgage and drags out through the courts until evicted and dragged (or wheeled) out by bailiffs by their hair. Then gets put into either a hospice or some other state provided care

Scenario 1 is neither sustainable long term or realistic. person A and Person B are not related and B has never lived in the house etc.

Strange the amount of sneery people who would seem to prefer scenario 3 so that a person who is already dealing with a lot could have the last of their dignity stripped away.

Mod note
Uncivil words removed.
Please refrain from posting this again.

Simply by wouldnt everyone do it then. Why pay for mortgage ever again

Donald Trump · 30-11-2019 8:07pm

handlemaster wrote: »

Simply by wouldnt everyone do it then. Why pay for mortgage ever again

Go to bed if you can't understand simple logic and don't have anything constructive to contribute.

Rows Grower · 30-11-2019 8:13pm

Donald Trump wrote: »

Go to bed if you can't understand simple logic and don't have anything constructive to contribute.

Lol.

Saudades · 30-11-2019 8:45pm

pg633 wrote: »

one other thing to consider - will the property meet the required standards of the HAP scheme?

Donald Trump wrote: »

What's this related to?

I think it means that you probably won't get assistance for more bedrooms then you need.

So a single person / couple without children won't get social housing or HAP for a 2 or more bedroom home, or a single person / couple with one child won't get social housing or HAP for a 3 bedroom home etc.

RobbingBandit · 30-11-2019 8:52pm

You'll probably have to provide bank statements and undergo means testing in a scenario like this might be worth a chat with local MABS or citizens information office about it.

Donald Trump · 30-11-2019 9:04pm

Saudades wrote: »

I think it means that you probably won't get assistance for more bedrooms then you need.

So a single person / couple without children won't get social housing or HAP for a 2 or more bedroom home, or a single person / couple with one child won't get social housing or HAP for a 3 bedroom home etc.

From what I read this HAP is paid on a per person basis. Therefore the "rent" would not be a market rent for the actual property. That is understood now. However it is better than nothing and I did not see any conditions on what a person could and could not rent. For example, I didn't see anything saying that a single person could not rent a 2 bedroom place. However this was one of the things that I came on here to try to find out.

I gave three scenarios above. The default is that scenario 3 happens. Scenario 2 is more sustainable than scenario 1. Either way, in a few years, the person will likely not own that house still because, through no fault of their own, their income will never reach a level where they can pay the (very reasonable and normal) mortgage (<1k a month). "Downsizing" is not an option either as there is effectively no equity in the house.

Some people appear to think that scenario 3 is the best for society - else there is apparently no reason for anyone to pay a mortgage. I don't know if those people were let fall on their heads as babies too often or if too much ingestion of illegal substances has fried the lonely neurons they might have once had.

The Student · 30-11-2019 9:28pm

Donald Trump wrote: »

From what I read this HAP is paid on a per person basis. Therefore the "rent" would not be a market rent for the actual property. That is understood now. However it is better than nothing and I did not see any conditions on what a person could and could not rent. For example, I didn't see anything saying that a single person could not rent a 2 bedroom place. However this was one of the things that I came on here to try to find out.

I gave three scenarios above. The default is that scenario 3 happens. Scenario 2 is more sustainable than scenario 1. Either way, in a few years, the person will likely not own that house still because, through no fault of their own, their income will never reach a level where they can pay the (very reasonable and normal) mortgage (<1k a month). "Downsizing" is not an option either as there is effectively no equity in the house.

Some people appear to think that scenario 3 is the best for society - else there is apparently no reason for anyone to pay a mortgage. I don't know if those people were let fall on their heads as babies too often or if too much ingestion of illegal substances has fried the lonely neurons they might have once had.

If you rent a property at substantially below market rent (I assume this is a three bed with a single occupant and you are renting at HAP levels then the tenant may have a tax liability for benefit in kind.

Donald Trump · 30-11-2019 9:31pm

The Student wrote: »

If you rent a property at substantially below market rent (I assume this is a three bed with a single occupant and you ate renting at HAP levels then the tenant may have a tax liability for benefit in kind.

Hmmmm. But surely it could be rented as a room then in a three bed where you'd "intend" to rent out the other two beds....but sure just never get around to finding suitable tenants...)

The Student · 30-11-2019 9:40pm

Donald Trump wrote: »

Hmmmm. But surely it could be rented as a room then in a three bed where you'd "intend" to rent out the other two beds....but sure just never get around to finding suitable tenants...)

Good luck with that if or when Revenue contact you. You do realize that the RTB share all info with Revenue automatically. In the current housing situation the defense of not finding someone suitable most likely will not be accepted by Revenue.

Is it possible to buy house and rent it to previous owner under HAP etc?

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