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Boards unfettered sexism (See Mod Note in first post)

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Comments

  • #62
    cee_jay
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 7,920 Mod ✭✭✭✭cee_jay


    Count Basie wrote: »
    It's hardly our fault that you're so easily offended.

    I'd appreciate if you didn't tell me how I feel, thanks very much. Fortunately, I am not that easily offended.


  • #63
    anewme
    Registered Users Posts: 11,853 ✭✭✭✭anewme


    Count Basie wrote: »
    Let's just have separate forums for men and women. And then the girls won't have to deal with all the horrible lad banter.

    Stop describing sexism as banter for starters.


  • #64
    Faith
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 30,654 Mod ✭✭✭✭Faith


    Count Basie wrote: »
    Let's just have separate forums for men and women. And then the girls won't have to deal with all the horrible lad banter.

    Mod note: Banned for ignoring mod warning above.


  • #65
    nightie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 136 ✭✭nightie


    fits wrote: »
    I just don’t have the energy for it.

    Fair play to those of you battling it but I just can’t.

    I know there’s an ignore poster option but I’d love an ignore thread option.


  • #66
    sullivlo
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,994 Mod ✭✭✭✭sullivlo


    Faith wrote: »
    I’d suggest PMing sullivlo to discuss your post specifically because I can’t speak on her behalf, but we’d never generally allow posters to be specifically targeted when they’re not posting in the thread or forum they’re being mentioned in. It’s just not very fair because it doesn’t give them much chance to defend themselves unless someone brings it to their attention.

    I suppose an acceptable alternative would be saying something like “as long as threads like these [links] are allowed”, rather than naming specific posters.
    That is it in a nutshell.

    Saying: this thread is a car crash = allowed.
    Saying: poster a and b are posting awful crap in this thread = not allowed.

    The general rule is attack the post not the poster.

    No offence was intended.


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  • #67
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    pwurple wrote: »
    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2058072151

    This thread linked, case in point.

    Do any other women here find boards to be toxic when it comes to sexism and how it is tolerated / encouraged?

    That thread is running for months. Containing gems like ranking whether asses , tits or face are looked at first while passing random women in the street. What parts of women's vulva can be seen in what clothes etc.



    Rape culture alive and well?

    I think it's simpler than that. Boards can be toxic on many subjects. Not just on the subjects you've highlighted. Different forums have inconsistent levels of what's allowed. It's why the option to ignore forums would be useful. After hours would be one I'd avoid find that reason. Sometimes click into it by accident.

    Also the issues you're highlighting are complex and society is still struggling to deal with them. Especially online. Boards mostly doesn't have the maturity or complexity to deal with it.


  • #68
    Sunny Dayz
    Registered Users Posts: 5,298 ✭✭✭Sunny Dayz


    Interesting opening post. I feel ignorant and naive that I don’t notice sexist comments. Perhaps it’s because I mainly frequent the fashion and beauty forum and the running forum.


  • #69
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    sullivlo wrote: »
    ...
    The general rule is attack the post not the poster.
    ...

    It used to be.

    IMO personal attacks and victim blaming has become normalized on boards in recent years. New posters to boards often have very poor experience. It's symptomatic of a general trend. I think that's reflected that people have a mindset of no go areas on Boards, or safe areas.


  • #70
    sullivlo
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,994 Mod ✭✭✭✭sullivlo


    beauf wrote: »
    It used to be.

    IMO personal attacks and victim blaming has become normalized on boards in recent years. New posters to boards often have very poor experience. It's symptomatic of a general trend. I think that's reflected that people have a mindset of no go areas on Boards, or safe areas.
    And I would agree. There are areas of boards I ignore because of some of the male posters. The ladies lounge is generally a safe place but we periodically get a #NotAllMen attack where male posters tell us how we should be feeling about topics and how some things are just banter/locker room talk/women overreacting because we have our period/etc.

    I can’t comment on the moderation in other fora, and perhaps a more general discussion on moderation of boards could be had in feedback, but I try to mod to the rules we have in our own charter.


  • #71
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    I don't think anyone can discuss moderation it's against the rules and ultimately futile. So best just to steer clear.

    I do the same with many subjects, on boards because there's isn't reasoned discussion to be had in many forums. It's just an exercise in frustration. Better for your stress and mental health to avoid negative people.

    Ignore functionality works well as its usually one or two posters who drags a thread down. They will consistently do it everywhere they post. Improves the boards experience no end. Cleans out threads really well.


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  • #72
    anewme
    Registered Users Posts: 11,853 ✭✭✭✭anewme


    It’s an interesting argument.

    Personally, while I understand why posters don’t go onto certain threads, I really don’t believe that is the answer. And I’m guilty of it myself.

    All that does is enable the bad behaviour.

    Then you decent posters leaving because of lack of action.

    Hatred should never be tolerated.

    Facebook have had to clean up its act and endorse better Community standards. Boards has a duty of care to do likewise.

    it is also down to all of us to call out and report a post or badly behaved poster. It’s the only way to drive change.


  • #73
    notsoyoungwan
    Registered Users Posts: 614 ✭✭✭notsoyoungwan


    My usage of boards has changed drastically since I first joined. I joined (under a different account) in 2006. By 2007 I was a mod of a few fora and a very active contributor to others. I used get involved in lively and sometimes heated (but generally respectful) discussions in AH and made some friends through that. I became a Cmod for about a year too. I stepped down from modding for a few reasons and closed that account in 2015. It was a full year before I came back here and opened this account and I really notice that I’m interacting differently - on AH now I stick to the light-hearted threads like the one on life’s minor annoyances, or the irritating people one. I don’t get involved in any heavy or serious discussions, and it’s largely down to the style and content of the prolific posters and their posts. I just couldn’t be bothered engaging with people who just want to browbeat others into submission in a discussion, or with those who are clearly sexist and misogynistic. Why should I engage with them? Life’s too short. But I do think that the fact there’s such a proliferation of these posts and posters is to the detriment of the site overall. I don’t want to come across all “in my day...” about it, but the reality is this was a much better site years ago. It’s a pity to see what it has become, tbh.


  • #74
    Pawwed Rig
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 22,289 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    anewme wrote: »
    Facebook have had to clean up its act and endorse better Community standards. Boards has a duty of care to do likewise.

    Facebook has paid staff to do their moderation and still allows alot more vile content to be posted than boards would allow.
    it is also down to all of us to call out and report a post or badly beaved poster. It’s the only way to drive change.

    This exactly. The amount of people who assume mods read every post!! Often in the DRP forum we get the response 'well this post was allowed so my not mine?' Needless to say the post they are using as a comparison was not reported by anyone.
    Also bear in mind that in the busier forums (AH and CA for example) there could be 50 reported posts in a day. So without an explicit message as to why you are reporting the mod may take a completely different interpretation and not take action on it. So I would encourage anyone to report as much as possible. The cmods are there if you want to follow up.

    Also people need to bear in mind that just because you are offended by something that does not necessarily make it a post that the mod will apply cards or bans on.

    Interesting thread though. It is food for thought.


  • #75
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    anewme wrote: »
    It’s an interesting argument.

    Personally, while I understand why posters don’t go onto certain threads, I really don’t believe that is the answer. And I’m guilty of it myself.

    All that does is enable the bad behaviour.

    Then you decent posters leaving because of lack of action.

    Hatred should never be tolerated.

    Facebook have had to clean up its act and endorse better Community standards. Boards has a duty of care to do likewise.

    it is also down to all of us to call out and report a post or badly behaved poster. It’s the only way to drive change.

    I think reporting is no longer effective especially not in some forums.

    The ignore function and unsubscribing though works instantly.


  • #76
    cee_jay
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 7,920 Mod ✭✭✭✭cee_jay


    beauf wrote: »
    I think reporting is no longer effective especially not in some forums.

    The ignore function and unsubscribing though works instantly.

    But that is almost like saying put up and shut up. It's already been highlighted in this thread that people do ignore and unsubscribe, or in my case, ignore vast parts of this site. Other posters have said they ignore large amounts of threads in certain forums. However, if you inadvertently click the wrong link, it can be a barage of sexist, toxic, hate filled posts.
    The ignore and unsubscribe to me is compounding the issue, and is effectively saying it's a problem that wont be addressed.


  • #77
    cee_jay
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 7,920 Mod ✭✭✭✭cee_jay


    Pawwed Rig wrote: »
    Facebook has paid staff to do their moderation and still allows alot more vile content to be posted than boards would allow.



    This exactly. The amount of people who assume mods read every post!! Often in the DRP forum we get the response 'well this post was allowed so my not mine?' Needless to say the post they are using as a comparison was not reported by anyone.
    Also bear in mind that in the busier forums (AH and CA for example) there could be 50 reported posts in a day. So without an explicit message as to why you are reporting the mod may take a completely different interpretation and not take action on it. So I would encourage anyone to report as much as possible. The cmods are there if you want to follow up.

    Also people need to bear in mind that just because you are offended by something that does not necessarily make it a post that the mod will apply cards or bans on.

    Interesting thread though. It is food for thought.

    I understand mods can't action each and every reported post, or even see those posts that don't get reported.
    However, there is a lot of low level trolling going on across the site, and it can often take a number of posts along the same vein before a poster is warned by a mod. It even happened on this thread (not saying the mods were incorrect btw). This type of posting often means individual posts can in themselves be just on the right side of not being actioned, but take all the posts together, a completely different picture can appear. And this is not just for sexist posts - it is quite evident in racist posts, transphobic posts, etc.

    TBH continue reporting the posts can be quite draining - it takes a lot of mental energy to keep engaged with a thread like that, and more often than not, it is just easier to stay out of that thread completely. This ends up compounding the problem, and the posts which are troublesome get supported, and the thread just descends into a toxic pit of sexist nonsense.

    A few times in this thread, it has been mentioned about being offended. I am not offended by any of this. I am tired. I am disappointed. I ignore. I sigh. But it really just has become the norm, and as women, what we are used to on a daily basis. So offended is definitely not something I feel regularly. My expectations as to what I will read on certain threads/forums is too low to be offended.

    You know, I mentioned this thread to my partner yesterday. His response? Well that's exactly why I don't venture any further than these 2 threads on that site. It is toxic, so much toxicity happening that goes unchecked. If boards is trying to increase its reach, it needs to look at this toxicity imo.


  • #78
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,764 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Pawwed Rig wrote: »
    Facebook has paid staff to do their moderation and still allows alot more vile content to be posted than boards would allow.



    This exactly. The amount of people who assume mods read every post!! Often in the DRP forum we get the response 'well this post was allowed so my not mine?' Needless to say the post they are using as a comparison was not reported by anyone.
    Also bear in mind that in the busier forums (AH and CA for example) there could be 50 reported posts in a day. So without an explicit message as to why you are reporting the mod may take a completely different interpretation and not take action on it. So I would encourage anyone to report as much as possible. The cmods are there if you want to follow up.

    Also people need to bear in mind that just because you are offended by something that does not necessarily make it a post that the mod will apply cards or bans on.

    Interesting thread though. It is food for thought.

    Also worth reflecting on why a poster here felt they had to leave.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #79
    Pawwed Rig
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 22,289 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    Also worth reflecting on why a poster here felt they had to leave.
    I have no idea. I don't speak for this forum though.
    cee_jay wrote: »
    TBH continue reporting the posts can be quite draining - it takes a lot of mental energy to keep engaged with a thread like that, and more often than not, it is just easier to stay out of that thread completely. This ends up compounding the problem, and the posts which are troublesome get supported, and the thread just descends into a toxic pit of sexist nonsense.

    Reporting and moderation is the model boards works on. If you take away either one then the you open the flood gates.
    Modding is draining aswell but if we care about the community we continue anyway.


  • #80
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,764 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Pawwed Rig wrote: »
    I have no idea. I don't speak for this forum though

    I wasnt asking if you knew why. I was suggesting it is worth reflecting on why.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #81
    Faith
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 30,654 Mod ✭✭✭✭Faith


    cee_jay wrote: »
    I understand mods can't action each and every reported post, or even see those posts that don't get reported.
    However, there is a lot of low level trolling going on across the site, and it can often take a number of posts along the same vein before a poster is warned by a mod. It even happened on this thread (not saying the mods were incorrect btw). This type of posting often means individual posts can in themselves be just on the right side of not being actioned, but take all the posts together, a completely different picture can appear. And this is not just for sexist posts - it is quite evident in racist posts, transphobic posts, etc.

    Without veering too much into overall site feedback, I very much see your point in this and I share your frustration. All I'll say here is that it can often feel like our (moderators) hands are tied, because the nature of boards now is that it tends towards a "the customer is always right" approach. But to users, any other approach looks like moderators circling the wagons/being unfair.

    I think this thread has raised a number of important issues that need to be discussed further behind the scenes, tbh.


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  • #82
    Pawwed Rig
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 22,289 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    I wasnt asking if you knew why. I was suggesting it is worth reflecting on why.

    I don't see how that is possible. Many people leave the site for all sorts of reasons. To attempt to understand the underlying reasons for each and everyone would be an exercise in futility, imo, especially for mods who are volunteers.


  • #83
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    cee_jay wrote: »
    ....However, if you inadvertently click the wrong link, it can be a barage of sexist, toxic, hate filled posts.

    The ignore and unsubscribe to me is compounding the issue, and is effectively saying it's a problem that wont be addressed.

    Don't shoot the messenger.

    That you can find toxicity so easily speaks for itself.


  • #84
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,764 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Pawwed Rig wrote: »
    I don't see how that is possible. Many people leave the site for all sorts of reasons. To attempt to understand the underlying reasons for each and everyone would be an exercise in futility imoespecially for mods who are volunteers.

    You could read what the poster actually said. Sorry but that isnt impossible. I never suggested analysing the reasons why everyone leaves.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #85
    anewme
    Registered Users Posts: 11,853 ✭✭✭✭anewme


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    You could read what the poster actually said. Sorry but that isnt impossible. I never suggested analysing the reasons why everyone leaves.

    That's not the first poster that has left for similar reasons.

    I totally get why that poster left and it is a shame.

    I have often even seen newish posters "driven off'.

    Agree it's a wider issue is respect of the bigger boards.ie future strategy and quality of forum. Certainly its bigger than any of the individual mods.

    Boards calls itself as a Community Forum, many examples given here indicate it as anything but.


  • #86
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,764 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Pawwed Rig wrote: »
    I have no idea. I don't speak for this forum though.



    Reporting and moderation is the model boards works on. If you take away either one then the you open the flood gates.
    Modding is draining aswell but if we care about the community we continue anyway.

    Where is all this "care about the community" on the site though? If there was genuine "care about the community" you would want to know why people were leaving. If there was genuine "care about the community" there would be a massive cull of disrespectful posters.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #87
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    anewme wrote: »
    ...

    I have often even seen newish posters "driven off'.

    ....

    I think that's very common. Never seen action taken regards of how many times I report it. With lockdown there's was a flood of people to the boards. So it's not an issue in the grand scheme of things.


  • #88
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    pwurple wrote: »
    ...
    This thread linked, case in point.

    Do any other women here find boards to be toxic when it comes to sexism and how it is tolerated / encouraged?

    That thread is running for months. ...

    We are told its not obvious unless it's reported. Even then it's open to interpretation as not everyone will be offended.


  • #89
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    I decided back in Jan to stop using the site. Sexism was the main reason. It seems like women are fair game and it was starting to impact my mental health. I don’t feel Boards has any interest in making women feel welcome and I no longer feel it’s confined to certain forums, a post in LL today on the breast reduction thread being confirmation of that. Perhaps this kind of thing makes for good entertainment or helps attract the kind of posters Boards want but it’s a shame compared to how well run the site was when I first joined. But then I think maybe sites like this reflect the people behind the scenes and how they view sexism in general. A lot of older posters still remember the incident at an event that led to a well respected poster leaving. If that’s how Boards sees women then no wonder online sexism is tolerated.


  • #90
    Pawwed Rig
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 22,289 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    You could read what the poster actually said. Sorry but that isnt impossible. I never suggested analysing the reasons why everyone leaves.

    Sorry Joey. I don't know what you're talking about. Your first post said ' a poster left' the next one said 'the poster'. I have no clue who the poster is or why they left or why they said they left.

    Anyway, interesting topic. I will bow out but keep reading as there are new posts. I just wanted to give a perspective on the challenges of moderation and why the mods need the assistance of the good posters on boards.


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  • #91
    Airyfairy12
    Registered Users Posts: 3,389 ✭✭✭Airyfairy12


    I considered leaving a few times too, the comments & threads about women in general often left me feeling hurt, saddened, frustrated and ruined my day after reading them. Whenever I would reply to comments that were overly sexist, I would be shouted down by other members on the thread and called a feminazi, an angry feminist, told to lighten up ect. Id report comments but of course nothing would be done.

    If thats how boards want to run this site, making a entire group of people feel unwelcome and undermined by other posters, I dont see any benefit in sticking around.


This discussion has been closed.
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