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Electric, Hydrogen & Hybrid Electric Buses in Ireland

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  • #302
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,428 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Peregrine wrote: »
    Can the Enviro200EV charge from a 150kW power supply?

    Interestingly they originally used, dual plug 2×40kW AC charging (total 80kW), but they are supposedly getting CCS DC fast charging from this year.

    Now that I think of it the Volvo 7900e will probably be in the running for this too. There 12m model has a capacity of 95 passengers.


  • #303
    salonfire
    Registered Users Posts: 3,078 ✭✭✭salonfire


    Where are the batteries located in them and does it have any impact to the interior of the bus for passengers?

    For example, if the batteries are on the floor, does that mean a lower ceiling height? Are there any batteries at the rear where the diesel engine is?


  • #304
    BonnieSituation
    Registered Users Posts: 18,921 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    salonfire wrote: »
    Where are the batteries located in them and does it have any impact to the interior of the bus for passengers?

    For example, if the batteries are on the floor, does that mean a lower ceiling height? Are there any batteries at the rear where the diesel engine is?

    On the Wrights they were above the wheel arch luggage racks on the ground floor which essentially just made the luggage racks above the wheel arches a lot higher than normal.

    I can stand corrected though.

    The batteries need to be as a low as possible given their weight.


  • #305
    p_haugh
    Registered Users Posts: 1,115 ✭✭✭p_haugh


    On the AHs that Dublin bus are trialling there's slightly less space at the back upstairs due to the placement of the batteries being at the back of the bus. I assume it will be a similar setup for the hybrids coming later this year


  • #306
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,428 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    salonfire wrote: »
    Where are the batteries located in them and does it have any impact to the interior of the bus for passengers?

    For example, if the batteries are on the floor, does that mean a lower ceiling height? Are there any batteries at the rear where the diesel engine is?

    For single deckers or double deckers?

    For single deckers they are normally placed on top of the roof (and model depending some also placed in the rear compartment of the bus where the Diesel engine is normally in addition to the roof).

    This usually means no change at all to the internal dimensions or capacity of the bus. It should look almost exactly the same as a Diesel bus inside, just quieter and an observant person might notice that the height of the bus is some what higher.

    Here is what the ADL-BYD Envrio200EV in London looks like:
    2-1.jpg

    Note the bump on the top is the battery. I think they have a new design now that makes the bump less obvious.

    If you click on this PDF, (scroll down to page 9) you can see a really interesting diagram of where all the batteries, charging equipment, motors, etc. are. Though note this is for a New Zealand model, I don't think UK/Ireland ones would have so much AC and therefore the layout is a bit different, but still interesting:
    https://at.govt.nz/media/1976524/enviro200ev-brochure.pdf

    Of course all of the above is based on the Enviro200EV, buses from different companies might have different layouts. Though batteries on roof is pretty common.

    Double Deckers are more complicated, typically the batteries go inside the bus, down the back of the lower deck and do take up some passenger space unfortunately.


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  • #307
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,428 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Yes, I'm not sure where the batteries go on the Enviro400ER, the battery is much larger then the AH/Enviro400H and needs space for charging equipment too.

    As an aside, I was just looking at the Specs of the double deck Optare Metrodecker EV used in London. Pretty impressive, 10.5m long, with 96 passenger capacity (63 seated). Looks like the batteries on this bus don't take up any passenger space. The downside compared to the EnviroE400EV is a range of 170 to 230km from the battery, due to smaller battery.

    By comparison the Enviro400EV is longer 10.9m, but carries 85 passengers (67 seated) and 250km range.

    Seems like the Optare is specced for more standing and thus more capacity, with a lighter body work and batteries. While the Enviro400EV has the more London Bus Busmaster spec, with more seating and more body weight (lots of glass) and bigger, heavier batteries.

    Optare seems more like a Dublin Bus spec, though we have no experience with them. I wonder if ADL might consider doing an alternative Enviro400EV spec with lighter build and more passenger capacity.


  • #308
    BonnieSituation
    Registered Users Posts: 18,921 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    BonnieSituation wrote: »
    On the Wrights they were above the wheel arch luggage racks on the ground floor which essentially just made the luggage racks above the wheel arches a lot higher than normal.

    I can stand corrected though.

    The batteries need to be as a low as possible given their weight.

    I'm guessing this nonsense was really referring to the brake regen units which makes more sense.

    I just couldn't visualize where batteries would be on a double decker knowing the single deckers have batteries on the roof.


  • #309
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,428 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    I found an image of the layout of the Enviro400H (AH), I'm guessing the Enviro400ER might be similar, with the batteries under the back seats upstairs. While the ER has a bigger battery, with battery tech getting smaller over the past ten years, perhaps they can fit the bigger battery in the same space.

    BTW Interestingly these batteries and electrical systems on both the 400H and 400ER is supplied by BAE Systems.

    6a00d8341c4fbe53ef01310fb39309970c-800wi


  • #310
    punisher5112
    Registered Users Posts: 24,647 ✭✭✭✭punisher5112


    I seen the back row is further towards the front upstairs from looking at it from outside.


  • #311
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,428 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    punisher5112 wrote: »
    I seen the back row is further towards the front upstairs from looking at it from outside.

    Could well be, though keep in mind these are 11m's long, versus the 10.5m of the SG class, so might not make much difference in practice.

    BTW As I guessed, the new 32kWh battery pack is exactly the same dimensions as the old 1kWh battery pack in the 400H, though 170kg heavier. So yes, it is probably in the same space under the rear seats up top.

    Spec for the BAE Series-E used in the Enviro400H here:
    https://gettozero.com/series-e.php

    Spec for the BAE Series-ER used in the Enviro400ER here:
    https://gettozero.com/series-er.php

    Side panel of the above pages has PDF's with detailed specs.

    Interestingly BAE Systems also has a full EV system they launched last year, the Series-EV:
    https://gettozero.com/series-ev.php

    Obviously ADL is partnered with BYD for the double deckers at the moment, but maybe they will also do a future version with BAE Systems too in the future. Might be more suited to the NTA spec.

    As an aside, this shows how fast battery tech is advancing. They can now fit a 32kWh battery in the same space as just a 1kWh battery 10 years ago. That is an x32 times improvement in just 10 years. These type of leaps in battery tech should make the double decker EV feasible.


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  • #312
    punisher5112
    Registered Users Posts: 24,647 ✭✭✭✭punisher5112


    Are the fully electric singles still on trial, last time seen one was rathmines but that was before the pandemic. It was on British plates.


  • #313
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,428 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    punisher5112 wrote: »
    Are the fully electric singles still on trial, last time seen one was rathmines but that was before the pandemic. It was on British plates.

    I think that was just for the NTA trial which has now ended. I think 4 fullEV single deckers were trialled. Anyone know what make/models they were? Might help indicate the buses in the running.


  • #314
    punisher5112
    Registered Users Posts: 24,647 ✭✭✭✭punisher5112


    bk wrote: »
    I think that was just for the NTA trial which has now ended. I think 4 fullEV single deckers were trialled. Anyone know what make/models they were? Might help indicate the buses in the running.

    This is the one I seen....


  • #315
    punisher5112
    Registered Users Posts: 24,647 ✭✭✭✭punisher5112


    White raised roof for batteries of course.
    Alexander Dennis BYD on the rear in very small writing.


  • #316
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,428 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    punisher5112 wrote: »
    White raised roof for batteries of course.
    Alexander Dennis BYD on the rear in very small writing.

    An Enviro200EV written on the back too. No surprise, likely to be a front runner for the single deck tender I'd say.

    I think all the buses used in the trails were demo buses or borrowed from other countries. One was even a Right Hand Drive Biogas MAN bus!


  • #317
    punisher5112
    Registered Users Posts: 24,647 ✭✭✭✭punisher5112


    bk wrote: »
    An Enviro200EV written on the back too. No surprise, likely to be a front runner for the single deck tender I'd say.

    I think all the buses used in the trails were demo buses or borrowed from other countries. One was even a Right Hand Drive Biogas MAN bus!
    Left hand I'm sure you meant, I understand;-).
    Yea seen a photo somewhere of it.
    I didn't think they were going full EV yet though as hybrid is all that's tendered isn't it.


  • #318
    GT89
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,770 ✭✭✭GT89


    punisher5112 wrote: »
    Left hand I'm sure you meant, I understand;-).
    Yea seen a photo somewhere of it.
    I didn't think they were going full EV yet though as hybrid is all that's tendered isn't it.

    Theres a tender for 200 single decker EVs. Not sure how many will be used in Dublin likely be used on the bus connect O route which has a low bridge so double deckers cannot be used on it. Say the rest could be for Cork, Galway and Limerick etc.


  • #319
    Peregrine
    Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 26,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭Peregrine


    There will be plenty of need for single deckers in Dublin for local routes and orbitals under BusConnects


  • #320
    punisher5112
    Registered Users Posts: 24,647 ✭✭✭✭punisher5112


    GT89 wrote: »
    Theres a tender for 200 single decker EVs. Not sure how many will be used in Dublin likely be used on the bus connect O route which has a low bridge so double deckers cannot be used on it. Say the rest could be for Cork, Galway and Limerick etc.

    Ok so they're full EV. Sorry completely forgot.


  • #321
    GT89
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,770 ✭✭✭GT89


    Peregrine wrote: »
    There will be plenty of need for single deckers in Dublin for local routes and orbitals under BusConnects

    Not sure what the fetish is for single deck buses. Obivoisly for the O route they make sense but I would personally if that was run as BRT using articulated vehicles not just standard single deckers. GAI have 40 streetlites which is morr than enough single deckers for lkcal and orbital routes.

    The cost difference of running a single decker versus running a double decker is isn't huge and over capacity is always better than under capacity.


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  • #322
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,428 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    GT89 wrote: »
    Not sure what the fetish is for single deck buses. Obivoisly for the O route they make sense but I would personally if that was run as BRT using articulated vehicles not just standard single deckers. GAI have 40 streetlites which is morr than enough single deckers for lkcal and orbital routes.

    The cost difference of running a single decker versus running a double decker is isn't huge and over capacity is always better than under capacity.

    I suppose you could also ask what our fetish with Double Deckers is, given that is what we mostly use and we are pretty unique in that. The VAST majority of the world uses single deckers.

    Only UK, Singapore, Hong Kong and some small amounts in Berlin and China use Double Deckers. US, most of mainland Europe, most of Asia, etc. use single deckers.

    Double Deckers obviously have more seats, but they also have some serious issues:
    - Very slow dwell times due to people struggling up stairs.
    - Capacity not really being fully used due to people not checking up stairs.
    - Less accessible for elderly, mobility impaired, etc. upstairs is out of bounds with them.
    - People have issues with security upstairs.

    And real world capacity of a multi-door single decker can reach or even go above a double decker. 95 people in a 12m single decker. Articulated buses can be up to 150 people. Though that is configured with more standing and less sitting.

    It is a different way of thinking. Our bus system is designed to be very slow. People slowly boarding the bus, talk to the driver, up the stairs. Bus stuck in traffic, winding it's way through every estate on the way, of course you'd like a seat.

    The single decker model is the opposite. Very fast, 3 or 4 doors, board through any door, don't talk to the driver, fast dwell time, don't spend lots of time at the stop, squeeze in any door to really fill the bus. More likely to stand, but you shouldn't be standing long as the buses are supposed to be faster and get you there faster. Think more like the Luas, mass transit.


  • #323
    punisher5112
    Registered Users Posts: 24,647 ✭✭✭✭punisher5112


    Biggest issues with single deckers is the tail swing and our bus stop infrastructure.... With parking allowed up to bus cages(bus stop bays), tiny streets and now with all this cycle paths and poles fitted buses don't even fit in the lanes....

    Fairview after the footbridge heading out of the city, bus needs to exit the bus lane to actually clear these poles. Pure nuts complained and nothing done.

    Lane layout changed and bus lane lines painted where the bus needs to actually put wheels on the white line which all other vehicles are on or over.....

    Not enough place at stops to stop safely or to get in close enough for middle door safe usage.

    Much much more.
    Them streetlights are just terrible and way too long and turn angle is rubbish.


  • #324
    GT89
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,770 ✭✭✭GT89


    bk wrote: »
    I suppose you could also ask what our fetish with Double Deckers is, given that is what we mostly use and we are pretty unique in that. The VAST majority of the world uses single deckers.

    Only UK, Singapore, Hong Kong and some small amounts in Berlin and China use Double Deckers. US, most of mainland Europe, most of Asia, etc. use single deckers.

    Double Deckers obviously have more seats, but they also have some serious issues:
    - Very slow dwell times due to people struggling up stairs.
    - Capacity not really being fully used due to people not checking up stairs.
    - Less accessible for elderly, mobility impaired, etc. upstairs is out of bounds with them.
    - People have issues with security upstairs.

    And real world capacity of a multi-door single decker can reach or even go above a double decker. 95 people in a 12m single decker. Articulated buses can be up to 150 people. Though that is configured with more standing and less sitting.

    It is a different way of thinking. Our bus system is designed to be very slow. People slowly boarding the bus, talk to the driver, up the stairs. Bus stuck in traffic, winding it's way through every estate on the way, of course you'd like a seat.

    The single decker model is the opposite. Very fast, 3 or 4 doors, board through any door, don't talk to the driver, fast dwell time, don't spend lots of time at the stop, squeeze in any door to really fill the bus. More likely to stand, but you shouldn't be standing long as the buses are supposed to be faster and get you there faster. Think more like the Luas, mass transit.

    Oh I don't disagree with you there I would love to see the type of large three door single decker you get on the continent. Due to their lack of seating they can actually take the same amount of passengers that a double decker can take here.

    However generally the single deck buses that have been on the market in the UK and Ireland have been of low capacity midi bus variety and only take around 50-70 passengers rather than 80-95 like on the continent. The type of electric single decks in the tender aren't exactly high capacity. My best guess would they wouldn't be much bigger than the Streetlites.

    My personal preference would be that the main corridors be turned into BRT type operation with articulated buses with the associated infrastructure.

    The other issue with dwell times is poor stop infrastructure. Buses having to battle their way out in and and out of tight bus stop cages especially in and around the core city centre. Some of designers of bus stops in Dublin need to be shot.


  • #325
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,428 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    GT89 wrote: »
    The type of electric single decks in the tender aren't exactly high capacity. My best guess would they wouldn't be much bigger than the Streetlites.

    According to the tender documents, it looks like they are looking for the longer single deckers for this order:
    subject to the vehicle length being greater than 10.7 metres but not exceeding 12.3 metres;

    BTW it also sounds like they are looking for single and dual door models. So no tri-door luas type buses unfortunately.

    BBTW They also mention that these can end up at DB, BE, GA and Citydirect and any possible future PSO operator. So sounds like they will be used anywhere that single decker PSO buses are currently used.

    Anyone any idea how many single deck city buses BE have?

    They are also looking for 150kw CCS2 charging capability. So if ADL want to put forward the Enviro200EV, it will need to be their newer model with CCS supposedly due this year.

    As an aside, I'd assume there will need to be a separate tender for the installation of chargers in depots.


  • #326
    punisher5112
    Registered Users Posts: 24,647 ✭✭✭✭punisher5112


    Next big headache is where they will fit chargers.....


  • #327
    GT89
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,770 ✭✭✭GT89


    punisher5112 wrote: »
    Next big headache is where they will fit chargers.....

    I'd imagine it wouldn't be a big deal in newer depots like Harristown or the GAI depot in Ballymount. Older depots that are tigher for space would be more difficult. I'm not why charging facilities weren't installed or at least wired up ready when ready to go when GAI opened their depot.


  • #328
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,479 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    There will be electrical upgrades required at depots and potentially with the local distribution network also.


  • #329
    punisher5112
    Registered Users Posts: 24,647 ✭✭✭✭punisher5112


    Which will take a considerable amount of time....

    Donnybrook has s sub station basically across the road but it's opposite side of the bridge...

    Can see this been very slow to be honest. Maybe only small number of buses at a time and have a few charge units fitted.

    Wonder will they start out inside the sheds or outside.


  • #330
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,428 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    What I wonder is, will this install chargers for the 400ER's or not, at least initially.

    Obviously the single deckers will require chargers, but DB doesn't have many single deckers anyway. I'd assume GA's new depot was designed with this at least somewhat in mind and they operate most of the single deckers in Dublin. If DB get some of them, perhaps they could just operate those out of one of their bigger depots that have space for chargers.

    But the thing about the 400ER's is that while they are plug in hybrids and it would be better to charge them, they don't actually need to be charged. They can operate as a pure hybrid without charging. The Diesel engine can run when leaving the depot and it can basically charge up the battery to then use in full EV mode once it reaches the core city center.

    These buses are a series hybrid, which means they are actually driven by the electric motor, not the Diesel engine. There is actually no mechanical link between between the engine and the axle. So you can really think of the Diesel engine as a generator, rather then an engine.

    Obviously not charging first is not great for efficiency. But it does allow for great flexibility for the NTA and DB. They can roll out the buses first, without first installing the chargers, rolling out the chargers more gradually. They can also move them around different depots, even if lets say initially only one or two depots have chargers.

    The more I think of it, the more a smart, flexible buy that the 400ER's seem to be. Roll them out as pure hybrids first, then over a few years make them more efficient by installing chargers (which also lays the ground work for future full EV Double Deckers) and finally make them even more efficient by switching to use Biofuel/HVO.

    I can totally see fitting chargers to all depots and upgrading sub-stations, etc. could be a multi-year project. They will have 5 to 6 years breathing space with the 400ER to roll out chargers at most depots (not single decker ones) before they start to get full EV double deckers.


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  • #331
    GT89
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,770 ✭✭✭GT89


    bk wrote: »
    What I wonder is, will this install chargers for the 400ER's or not, at least initially.

    Obviously the single deckers will require chargers, but DB doesn't have many single deckers anyway. I'd assume GA's new depot was designed with this at least somewhat in mind and they operate most of the single deckers in Dublin. If DB get some of them, perhaps they could just operate those out of one of their bigger depots that have space for chargers.

    But the thing about the 400ER's is that while they are plug in hybrids and it would be better to charge them, they don't actually need to be charged. They can operate as a pure hybrid without charging. The Diesel engine can run when leaving the depot and it can basically charge up the battery to then use in full EV mode once it reaches the core city center.

    These buses are a series hybrid, which means they are actually driven by the electric motor, not the Diesel engine. There is actually no mechanical link between between the engine and the axle. So you can really think of the Diesel engine as a generator, rather then an engine.

    Obviously not charging first is not great for efficiency. But it does allow for great flexibility for the NTA and DB. They can roll out the buses first, without first installing the chargers, rolling out the chargers more gradually. They can also move them around different depots, even if lets say initially only one or two depots have chargers.

    The more I think of it, the more a smart, flexible buy that the 400ER's seem to be. Roll them out as pure hybrids first, then over a few years make them more efficient by installing chargers (which also lays the ground work for future full EV Double Deckers) and finally make them even more efficient by switching to use Biofuel/HVO.

    I can totally see fitting chargers to all depots and upgrading sub-stations, etc. could be a multi-year project. They will have 5 to 6 years breathing space with the 400ER to roll out chargers at most depots (not single decker ones) before they start to get full EV double deckers.

    So I'm guessing from what you are saying the engine on these hybrids is similar to a diesel train or a ship if it's a diesel generator powering an electric motor.


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