Irish Naturalisation : processing time and final stage

Novanta · 24-11-2007 7:51pm #1

An EU citizen (French, since nobody's perfect !), I lodged an application for Irish naturalisation, and subsequently received acknoledgement for it, back in February 2006.

Processing time :

- official sources currently give a 30 month processing time indication from application reception to process completion.

- for a more practical understanding of the processing time, its variability depending on specific cases, and evolution in time, could those who have recently got news and instructions to complete the final stage of the process let us know when they had applied, and when they reached the final stage ?

Final stage process :

- official sources are not very specific on the way it works.

- any real life insight on this part of the process for those who have been there already ? what is expected from the applicant, and what are the actions to take ?

Thanks a million !

Vica · 12-02-2008 2:33pm

I think it is time to improve the GNIB immigration office service as the application processing time exceeding 3 years for Naturalisation and LTR is not to be tolerated and humiliates the rights of legally employed immigrants (compared to UK where Naturalisation is guaranteed and takes 3 months only).

Rather than approaching the minister personally, I would suggest to approach through the HR of large/mid-size companies so that they could contact the ministry and formulate that this is extra burden for companies to maintain workpermits, associated budgetary costs, and difficulties in recruiting and retaining employees as they leave to work in another countries when realise those difficulties. Large companies are very concerned when it comes to the process of employing non-EU people.

If we were to make this mock-up letter here, what would be the best format for it? Any legal / HR experts in here?

sovtek · 12-02-2008 3:56pm

This process has been seriously dodgy for some time now. Lenihan has yet to answer for any of it, just arrogant pronouncements like "citizenship is not a right but a privilege" and the best one "LTR is an administrative scheme not a right". If I pay taxes and fulfill the requirements Mr. Lenihan then it sure as hell is. It's also EU law!
Recently I've heard that they are requesting Police Certificates for LTR in the latter stages of processing for from every country you've ever resided in prior to Ireland.
This is about to become law in the new bill and it's meant to be retroactive for all applicants. I know to get one from the FBI can take 3 months. They have been processing for July 2006 for about the past six months.
Sorry to say it all looks like an intentional screw job from the illustrious Mr. Lenihan for us immigrants.
Novanta a concerned group of us foreignors are meeting tomorrow evening to do something about it. PM if you are interested. It's very informative if nothing else.
Also take a look at http://immigrationboards.com/viewforum.php?f=34&sid=062d3a8b242c7718894230d67111571d

Oh and if you've ever taken the dole here then you can (and probably will) be refused.

Vica I have suggested informing groups like the IDA about this. They are the ones gallavanting around the world telling people to come and work in Ireland.

sovtek · 12-02-2008 4:07pm

I heard the other day that there was a study being done of the Entemp's work permit application process. The figures I remember were that at most it cost the government €200 (and as low as €72) to process a work permit application. This is while they are charging €1000 to €1500 a head for the "privilege" and this can now be paid by the prospective employee whereas that used to be illegal. I think the GNIB process was even lower (although we have to pay €100 a year for a mandatory piece of plastic known as the GNIB Registration Card).

If Conor wants to know barriers to integration experience by immigrants then he needs to look no further than his colleague Sir Brian Lenihan!

Suff · 14-02-2008 9:55pm

Ireland is one of the worest when it comes to Naturalisation laws....I know I've been fighting them since 2003!!!
you can fit the bill, tick all the boxes and still they will say "NO!'' or worst...the law is retrospective, one day you fit the next you dont!

walrusgumble · 15-02-2008 1:05am

Novanta wrote: »

An EU citizen (French, since nobody's perfect !), I lodged an application for Irish naturalisation, and subsequently received acknoledgement for it, back in February 2006.

Processing time :

- official sources currently give a 30 month processing time indication from application reception to process completion.

- for a more practical understanding of the processing time, its variability depending on specific cases, and evolution in time, could those who have recently got news and instructions to complete the final stage of the process let us know when they had applied, and when they reached the final stage ?

Final stage process :

- official sources are not very specific on the way it works.

- any real life insight on this part of the process for those who have been there already ? what is expected from the applicant, and what are the actions to take ?

Thanks a million !

they are currently processing applications received in july 2005. send a couple of letters, maybe one a month for three months asking when your application be ready, put pressure on. clearly state your history and use your "68" reference number. then on fourth, threatened judicial review proceedings within 21 days for unreasonable delay if no decision is made (by then you be nearly waiting for 3 years) should put the pressure on

in the past the courts found that 6 months to gather facts eg check out if you claimed social welfare when you shouldn't or any criminal convictions etc and another 6 months to process the application and get for policies etc is enough.

sovtek · 18-02-2008 1:21am

Lenihan was just on the politics show ****in on about how under the new legislation that you are either legal or illegal and therefore summary deportation is justified. Him saying something like that shows that he is either completely dishonest or just does not have a clue what he's talking about. Either way he needs to be replaced if there is to be a fair and transparent immigration system in Ireland.

Fratton Fred · 18-02-2008 11:06am

Does naturalisation give an EU citizen more rights in Ireland than they already have. It seems like a lot of hassle for little gain.

sovtek · 18-02-2008 3:55pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Does naturalisation give an EU citizen more rights in Ireland than they already have. It seems like a lot of hassle for little gain.

Well with the GNIB/Justice minister etc etc it does. Especially if you get a gleam in your eye for a non-eu national and both want to settle here.

walrusgumble · 19-02-2008 12:55am

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Does naturalisation give an EU citizen more rights in Ireland than they already have. It seems like a lot of hassle for little gain.

vote in dail eireann is just about it (british can) about it, unless its for some tax reasons (though i think eu people have same rights) is it definitely for her or for spouse?

walrusgumble · 19-02-2008 1:10am

sovtek wrote: »

Lenihan was just on the politics show ****in on about how under the new legislation that you are either legal or illegal and therefore summary deportation is justified. Him saying something like that shows that he is either completely dishonest or just does not have a clue what he's talking about. Either way he needs to be replaced if there is to be a fair and transparent immigration system in Ireland.

well some might ask about fairness & transparency for who? the non national or for the citizens, whom he serves? this will not effect all, there is such a thing as habeas corpus and requirement of authority to have reasonable casue.

in fairness, it is very straight forward you either have an entitlement to be here (legal) or you do not (illegal).

it is up to the applicant to make sure that their stamp 1,2 and 4's are kept up to date and ensure that applications for extensions are made WELL in advance(possibly 2-3 months prior to expirary date) these take around 2 weeks to 4 months to process (which one can note on either application form or website the possible length of time it will take to process.

when an application for citizenship or long term residency is made, a letter of acknowledgement. send another letter asking for length of time it will reply stating average time and that you are required to continue being legal (ie keeping status that you have now up to date) - bar the ridiculous time it takes to process citizenship applications, there is no excuse but to be legal at all times. if you managed to keep up to date in order to ensure continous residence prior to citizenship / long term residency application, then there is no reason why one should not do so now.

fair enough, not everyone is lucky and many experiene gaps in reckonable residency through no fault of their own ie department delay. but in general should cops stop you, bringing the letters and copies of applications to prove you are waiting on a decision to the attention of cops should sort things out. (no excuse for not keeping copies - you may need them should judicial review be required - dont rely on freedom of info act to compel dept to send all doc)

sovtek · 19-02-2008 12:04pm

walrusgumble wrote: »

in fairness, it is very straight forward you either have an entitlement to be here (legal) or you do not (illegal).

What if you loose your job and don't find another one before your latter permit runs out? When I went to the little window a month or so ago the guard accused me of being illegal because it took me six months to actually get the work permit in my hands. Even though I had the permit issued to me already it just had gone to the wrong address. It was a mammoth effort to get that sorted in the first place!
It's not that cut and dried and if the minister does not know this then he should not be the minister overseeing this department and most definitely not trying to bring in summary deportation.
Stories about the Nigerians being deported or detained even when they were legal should make it apparent that if summary deportations come in then they will be abused as even without that power the guards are already abusing what they have already.
At first do no harm applies here.
As far as being transparent...both sides should be served here. Remember I'm paying the same taxes as everyone else and I'm further subsidizing the MoJ as well as entemp with permit fees and GNIB card fees.

walrusgumble · 20-02-2008 12:12am

sovtek wrote: »

What if you loose your job and don't find another one before your latter permit runs out? When I went to the little window a month or so ago the guard accused me of being illegal because it took me six months to actually get the work permit in my hands. Even though I had the permit issued to me already it just had gone to the wrong address. It was a mammoth effort to get that sorted in the first place!
It's not that cut and dried and if the minister does not know this then he should not be the minister overseeing this department and most definitely not trying to bring in summary deportation.
Stories about the Nigerians being deported or detained even when they were legal should make it apparent that if summary deportations come in then they will be abused as even without that power the guards are already abusing what they have already.
At first do no harm applies here.
As far as being transparent...both sides should be served here. Remember I'm paying the same taxes as everyone else and I'm further subsidizing the MoJ as well as entemp with permit fees and GNIB card fees.

my sincere sympathies, but, provided you have made an application for ltr or citizenship before loosing job (meaning permit is technically expired, but keep hush hush if you get new job& permit) the time without permission to stay wil not be counted ( i am in know doubt certain you know this). the date it as issued on the permit is the date you hve entitlement to reside. so copper accused you of being illegal despite a new permit been granted but delayed due to being sent to wrong address? what a tos&&r he/she was. i think you are aware of a number of posts on two other sites that i wrote that highlighted the very issue to have made - and i agree with you - hence the dire need for quick processing time (even if it took a year, its damn better than 2-3 years)

however, firstly, the government policy is that , and one will note in european cases such as abaaz (sp) and cables and other v uk, a non national has no right/ guarantee to be allowed to enter or reside in the state. they must seek permission first and this permission, provided it is in accordance with the law, can be rejected, granted or refused

secondly, employers are no longer obliged, or in some cases encouraged to hire or rehire staff who need permits, but they cant dismiss unfairly either (this happens an awful lot)

thirdly, there is no guarantee to an work permit/green card or an automatic right to an extension thereof. i am sure that government will argue that due to the current economic climate and the pressures to provide job first to the irish national then to european (you wil note a hugh amount of jobs (low skiled/wage) are no longer eligible fo consideration, and that staff must contain more irish/eu nationals than non eu nationals in any particular workplace before a permit will be granted).

the government with assistance of FÁS review the industries regularily to see if there is a shortage of staff and is there a requirement for more. at this present time, certain categories under the work permit consider that certain jobs can easily be filled by irish/ eu so hence the requirement for a labour means test (ie requirement to advertise post on FAS and papers first) with the economy the way its going this will prove even more difficult to obtain a precious permit.

it is very harsh and uncaring but there you go speak to members of the oppostion parties and/or get involved with immigration groups. unfortunately, the state owes you nothing, but to give you the integrtity of having your application processed in a timely manner.

my point is (despite you correctly noted, and i summarily stated in the last paragraph), once these processing times are improved,then the minister is correct there will be no excuse. one is here to work and to ensure that they continue to do so. i blame the oppositon and in particular enda and naughton for not hammering this issue home.

the one thing i find hilarious is that the government genuinely think that this will cut down on judicial reviews,well i do not see that happening, ie more applications for habeas corpus which, depending on their being a dportation order made for reasons of arest, then judicial review will be brought) they are idiots.

so as for nigerians beng detained whilst legal, i am grealtly certain they were released shortly after via habeas corpus. but before you gload the government about this,it might be worth your while finding out the facts of those cases. where these people actually residiging in the state for a substantial continous period as required by basis of their residence in the first place? did they continue to abide by immigration laws when visiting other countries ie obtaining entry visas to enter host state? i am more than happy for you to correct me on this.

sovtek · 20-02-2008 3:27pm

walrusgumble wrote: »

my sincere sympathies, but, provided you have made an application for ltr or citizenship before loosing job (meaning permit is technically expired, but keep hush hush if you get new job& permit) the time without permission to stay wil not be counted ( i am in know doubt certain you know this). the date it as issued on the permit is the date you hve entitlement to reside. so copper accused you of being illegal despite a new permit been granted but delayed due to being sent to wrong address? what a tos&&r he/she was. i think you are aware of a number of posts on two other sites that i wrote that highlighted the very issue to have made - and i agree with you - hence the dire need for quick processing time (even if it took a year, its damn better than 2-3 years)

And that is what I am refering to when I say that your status can be in question through no fault of your own. This is how easily the summary deportation power can and will be abused.

B]however,[/B] firstly, the government policy is that , and one will note in european cases such as abaaz (sp) and cables and other v uk, a non national has no right/ guarantee to be allowed to enter or reside in the state. they must seek permission first and this permission, provided it is in accordance with the law, can be rejected, granted or refused

They don't have a right but in the case of eu spouse ..the EU national has the right to reside anywhere in EU with their family. Otherwise most countries have this get out clause but it's usually carried out with some good faith. The past few years immigration officials in Ireland have shown very little of this by breaking their own laws as well as EU law in addition to what seems to be an intentional effort to keep people from getting LTR and citizenship.

secondly, employers are no longer obliged, or in some cases encouraged to hire or rehire staff who need permits, but they cant dismiss unfairly either (this happens an awful lot)

thirdly, there is no guarantee to an work permit/green card or an automatic right to an extension thereof. i am sure that government will argue that due to the current economic climate and the pressures to provide job first to the irish national then to european (you wil note a hugh amount of jobs (low skiled/wage) are no longer eligible fo consideration, and that staff must contain more irish/eu nationals than non eu nationals in any particular workplace before a permit will be granted).

the government with assistance of FÁS review the industries regularily to see if there is a shortage of staff and is there a requirement for more. at this present time, certain categories under the work permit consider that certain jobs can easily be filled by irish/ eu so hence the requirement for a labour means test (ie requirement to advertise post on FAS and papers first) with the economy the way its going this will prove even more difficult to obtain a precious permit.

I know all this but what's your point?

it is very harsh and uncaring but there you go speak to members of the oppostion parties and/or get involved with immigration groups. unfortunately, the state owes you nothing, but to give you the integrtity of having your application processed in a timely manner.

Yes they owe us that as well as to honor in good faith by granting LTR and citizenship to those who have fulfilled their criteria as laid out by law in a timely manner.

my point is (despite you correctly noted, and i summarily stated in the last paragraph), once these processing times are improved,then the minister is correct there will be no excuse. one is here to work and to ensure that they continue to do so. i blame the oppositon and in particular enda and naughton for not hammering this issue home.

I see no effort to improve...all I see are arrogant pronouncements about the harsh laws he is trying to set down upon us who have greatly contributed to the wealth of this country and followed the law.

so as for nigerians beng detained whilst legal, i am grealtly certain they were released shortly after via habeas corpus. but before you gload the government about this,it might be worth your while finding out the facts of those cases. where these people actually residiging in the state for a substantial continous period as required by basis of their residence in the first place? did they continue to abide by immigration laws when visiting other countries ie obtaining entry visas to enter host state? i am more than happy for you to correct me on this.

These were people that had proper residence permits for the UK and Ireland and were detained wrongly....in one case I think it was for a matter of months. Otherwise they would not have been released and compensated. Now if the power for summary deportation were to come through...those people might be out of the country before they could even do anything to rectify their situation. One thinks that may be what Lenihan is going for.
He had the neck to state that the new bill was intentionally vague so as to prevent the excesses of the legal profession...I suppose he means, like you said, all the court cases that will arise from the INIS/Justice denying people their rights in the first place.

mick72 · 23-02-2008 3:11pm

It is disgraceful that it takes 3 years on average to process a citizenship application. I am aware that they might be reluctant to grant Irish citizenship (which is perfectly fine), but they should say so after few weeks or months, not having people waiting for three years.

The same applies to permanent residence (stamp 4). I know people that have been waiting for the last 2 years and without stamp 4 they cannot move on with their lives e.g. they cannot take out mortgage and buy a house, they can't leave their sh**ty jobs since they are tied to that employer owing to work permit regulations.

They should give a reasonable timeframe for all these applications. I wouldn't grant an Irish citizenship to people who show no desire to stay here and integrate into community, who'd rather leave as soon as they have the passport, which leaves Irish Govt with burden since it will be held responsible for any trouble a person causes abroad.

sovtek · 23-02-2008 4:36pm

mick72 wrote: »

They should give a reasonable timeframe for all these applications. I wouldn't grant an Irish citizenship to people who show no desire to stay here and integrate into community, who'd rather leave as soon as they have the passport, which leaves Irish Govt with burden since it will be held responsible for any trouble a person causes abroad.

The waiting times for LTR and citizenship are the largest obstacles to integration for immigrants. Why would I respect a population and want to integrate whose government treats me like a slave to a work permit. An EU directive states that it must take no more than six months to process naturalisation once the requisit timeframe has elapsed. Unfortunately the UK and Ireland are exempt from this directive. One wonders why.

Moriarty · 23-02-2008 5:12pm

sovtek wrote: »

The waiting times for LTR and citizenship are the largest obstacles to integration for immigrants. Why would I respect a population and want to integrate whose government treats me like a slave to a work permit.

Why would you apply for citizenship in the first place if the administration of the country is so anathema to you that you've lost all respect for the countries people? Why do you expect to be granted citizenship if you have such distaste for the state and people?

sovtek · 23-02-2008 5:18pm

Moriarty wrote: »

Why would you apply for citizenship in the first place if the administration of the country is so anathema to you that you've lost all respect for the countries people? Why do you expect to be granted citizenship if you have such distaste for the state and people?

On the first question...because I've lived here for years and paid loads into the tax coffers with the very reasonable expectation that if I held up my end of the bargain they would theirs.
On the second...my opinion on the government isn't a question on the application form. I've been here for almost eight years. When I first came here immigrants were treaty relatively well and I had every respect for the system and for people as a whole. The system basically worked. Recently a lot of that has changed both from the government and a significant portion of the population. When I hear Lenihan ****e on and a lot of ignorant defense of what he's doing then yes I loose a lot of respect and I feel that I just don't want much to do with Irish people in general. Of course I have friends and relationships but it's stops there really.
Sincerely I am hoping both the government and the people might redeem themselves.

Moriarty · 23-02-2008 5:32pm

sovtek wrote: »

On the first question...because I've lived here for years and paid loads into the tax coffers with the very reasonable expectation that if I held up my end of the bargain they would theirs.
On the second...my opinion on the government isn't a question on the application form.

Money (not even your money any more) more important than your principles? Surely not, sovtek. Thats awfully capitalist of you.

I can't figure out why you'd want citizenship of a country which you apparently feel is stiffing you financially, completely unrepresentitive of your beliefs and when you have lost all respect for the population of the country as a whole. I honestly just don't get it.

mick72 · 23-02-2008 5:58pm

Sovtek,

paying tax has nothing to do with your passport application form. Of course, in order for them to determine what character you have, they need documents such as P21, 3 references from Irish citizens (non-naturalized) etc... Having to pay tax is a requirement and obligation in any country.

You can apply for citizenship after 5 years in Ireland (reckonable residence). If you have been here for 8 years, you would have applied back in 2005 when process took no more than 12 months.

I agree with you though on the work permit regulations, it does leave a person very vulnerable to employer since you can basically go gome unless you want to work for them only.

fattypatty · 05-03-2008 1:34pm

hi fellas,

listen, does any1 knows what does "good character" means when it comes to naturalization ... (as it states in the conditions that you have to be off good character)... i know that u should not have committed a crime and never had claimed social welfare...but does penalty points on your driving license considered to be of a bad character and in turns disqualify you from naturalization?

mick72 · 05-03-2008 8:35pm

I have never heard of that. I am sure it does not matter for a few points, but if you had your licence taken, I think that would matter

sovtek · 06-03-2008 11:32pm

fattypatty wrote: »

hi fellas,

listen, does any1 knows what does "good character" means when it comes to naturalization ... (as it states in the conditions that you have to be off good character)... i know that u should not have committed a crime and never had claimed social welfare...but does penalty points on your driving license considered to be of a bad character and in turns disqualify you from naturalization?

I think typically anything under the Road Traffic Act is not considered against you. At the end of the day they can do anything they want though.

Suff · 16-03-2008 4:28pm

The Irish Naturalisation Process is HELL!......and this is from a personal experience.

I have been in the state for over 12 years now (fully legal). Applied for Naturalisation back in December 2002 I was shocked to know that the law has changed (No...there wasnt any kind of publications to alert potential applicants of the amendments) from a 5 years legal residency to a 5 years working residency.
Back then I had 6 years on a student visa, 1 year work visa and have been paing tax for 4 years on a full-time permanent emplyment as a Software developer which was during my studies under the full supervision of both my college and GNIB. I have a Masters, Bachelor degree in Computing and MBA in International Business Management all from Irish colleges and universities.

in Jan 2003 I lost my job to redundancy and had serious trouble finding one.
so I had no choice but to return to college so I would be able to remain in the state to appeal.

in Jan 2005 I was refused :mad: but that didn't stop me from appealing, it went all the way to the high court (April 2007) but I lost the case due to incorrect information presented by the Department of Justice... I have a correspondence from the department under the Freedom of Information act
confirming their incorrect statment given during the high court case. I wrote a personal letter to Minister Brian Lenihan back in November 2007 trying to appeal my case. I am still awaiting his response.

Got a job in November 2007, applied under the GreenCard scheme but was refused (Jan 2008) due to me having stamp 2 (student). After much conversations with Department officials the only solution was for me to return to my home country and appeal my green card application. which I did....but was refused (again!) based on the point that the department feels that an Irish/Eu national could be found to fill the position. which is totally incorrect since the job description clearly defines a requirement for a person with a very specific set of skills which includes fluency in a foreign language (which happens to be mt mother tongue)

Now...I cannot return to Ireland, having lived their for over 12 years I have left everything I own in Dublin (including my dog). My Irish friends are trying to re-appeal again on my behalf. All I can do is wait.

But....I won't give up.

fattypatty · 31-03-2008 12:14am

jeez..sorry to hear that fella....

walrusgumble · 31-03-2008 8:56am

sovek: check the case of KM v MJELR 2007 Edwards J can get it on bailii.org. read it and use it.

Mort5000 · 13-11-2008 6:30pm

So, of all the people posting here and waiting to get their naturalisation decision, who has received a decision?

I've been waiting 3 years 5 months now.

I've written to the Dept once, and received a 'no decision has yet been reached' reply.

Anyone else?

fattypatty · 18-11-2008 2:40pm

Mort5000 wrote: »

So, of all the people posting here and waiting to get their naturalisation decision, who has received a decision?

I've been waiting 3 years 5 months now.

I've written to the Dept once, and received a 'no decision has yet been reached' reply.

Anyone else?

the only best solution you have i think is to seek legal advise.....get an immigration solicitor to fast track your case. i had legal advise from one and he said that after 8 months if dept doesnt reply them on the case they send it to their legal team who take the matter to court as he said its outrageous that brits do it within 6-7 months with three times the number of application rec'd then here in eire.

Mort5000 · 18-11-2008 2:53pm

fattypatty wrote: »

the only best solution you have i think is to seek legal advise.....get an immigration solicitor to fast track your case. i had legal advise from one and he said that after 8 months if dept doesnt reply them on the case they send it to their legal team who take the matter to court as he said its outrageous that brits do it within 6-7 months with three times the number of application rec'd then here in eire.

I have considered this a few times... however... I believe that Naturalisation is a privilege and not a right... and I have a fear, whether justified or not, that sending the solicitors in will just get my application 'accidentally lost'... or dropped to the back of the list.

I was really posting here to see what lengths of time other people have experienced in this regard...

Also worth noting that over on http://www.immigrationboards.com/index.php there have a great deal more detail on this topic.

sovtek · 18-11-2008 5:36pm

walrusgumble wrote: »

sovek: check the case of KM v MJELR 2007 Edwards J can get it on bailii.org. read it and use it.

I've tried searching KM v MJELR 2007 and KM v MJELR 2007 Edwards J. The former finds the case of the OP and the second finds nothing. What am I to look for here?

ihatepatkenny · 26-04-2009 11:16pm

submitted an application in November 2007, got confirmation of receipt and was given a 24 month turn around time (!). then just this week (April 2009) got asked for additional documents (bank statements, payslips etc). Could it be that they have finally looked at the application?? Anyone know how long it will take from here?

Irish Naturalisation : processing time and final stage

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