Coronovirus - Gamsat MARCH 2020

Confused_! · 13-03-2020 10:51am

gradmedgirl wrote: »

I have a feeling itll be the opposite, in fact, I think itll be higher points, my guess is 63 or 64, heck even 65 but that's just my theory

I don't think so to be fair, as there won't have been enough people from September that got those scores (as significantly fewer sit it in September). They'll still need to fill their places and hit quotas for number of students in their courses, so I think they'll have no choice but to lower the points to fill the places (if there is no resit) - hence why UL have the lowest points, as they have nearly double the places of any other GEM programme in Ireland!

I have just emailed UL about what their response might be, but I'm not hopeful about getting an answer tbh!

Banaba · 13-03-2020 10:58am

gradmedgirl wrote: »

I have a feeling itll be the opposite, in fact, I think itll be higher points, my guess is 63 or 64, heck even 65 but that's just my theory

Why do you think higher points? If they kiss a sitting surely that would mean there would be less applying and more places to fill?

gradmedgirl · 13-03-2020 10:58am

taxignorant wrote: »

I think if they can reschedule the exam for June or July, the Universities in question and the CAO should be able to manage for Sept entry. Of course that depends on the trajectory the pandemic takes. Often with outbreaks like this there is a second flare the autumn after it appears so there's no guarantee that Sept will happen either unless they could break it up into smaller groups or take other precautions. Or perhaps Universities would switch to interview, CV, and undergraduate GPA or other assessment methods. We could be living with uncertainty on it for quite some time, I think studying for a few hours each day and sitting tight are in order.

The interview and CV and undergrad gpa wouldn't be the best method. I know nurses who have applied with 10 years+ clinical experience and have worked in areas of surgery nursing and cardiac nursing.... so can you imagine their CVs and interviews compared to someone just finishing their undergrad... and as regard to gpa, the issue there is that many people would have done their degree outside of ireland and so how do you weigh someone who has a Physics degree from UCL compared to a Ag Science degree from IT Tallaght... I think it's super difficult to use that criteria

gradmedgirl · 13-03-2020 11:04am

Banaba wrote: »

Why do you think higher points? If they kiss a sitting surely that would mean there would be less applying and more places to fill?

Yes but dont forget, people like myself and others have sat the gamsat in Sept 2019, and some in March 2019 and have done significantly well.... well enough to already already get into gradmed in dublin and so if you lower the points, you'll have people who pretty much dont need to sit it and are just gonna get in with their own score they did in the previous 2 or 3 possible sittings...

Confused_! wrote: »

I don't think so to be fair, as there won't have been enough people from September that got those scores (as significantly fewer sit it in September). They'll still need to fill their places and hit quotas for number of students in their courses, so I think they'll have no choice but to lower the points to fill the places (if there is no resit) - hence why UL have the lowest points, as they have nearly double the places of any other GEM programme in Ireland!

Another reason why I think they will increase it a little anecdotal but I've spoken to a few of the girls ata specific gradmed programme gave me a fair idea of the issues involved in the administration side and convinced me that this year or next the score may go up.. feel free to PM me I can tell you more about it not sure I should post publically though

sk9 · 13-03-2020 11:42am

gradmedgirl wrote: »

I have a feeling itll be the opposite, in fact, I think itll be higher points, my guess is 63 or 64, heck even 65 but that's just my theory

Based on what? Marks been fluctuating at 60 or below for a number of years, can't see a massive (and a jump of 5 is massive) leap taking place this year.

sk9 · 13-03-2020 11:53am

gradmedgirl wrote: »

Yes but dont forget, people like myself and others have sat the gamsat in Sept 2019, and some in March 2019 and have done significantly well.... well enough to already already get into gradmed in dublin and so if you lower the points, you'll have people who pretty much dont need to sit it and are just gonna get in with their own score they did in the previous 2 or 3 possible sittings...

I'm not following. There's people with high scores from previous sittings every year, how would they cause scores to go up? Missing the march sitting means less people will have scores at 60+ so surely scores must go down slightly.

How can scores go up 5, 3 or even 1 point under these conditions?

Though in saying that I'm sure the March sitting will be in Summer so people shouldn't sweat it just yet.

aesopikea · 13-03-2020 12:21pm

I'm not sure how the points would go UP in the situation where there is no sitting.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the points are based off of supply and demand are they not?

It's not as though RCSI will decide "hey, we are going to set the points at 61 this year, anybody who gets 61 or over can get in". The points are dictated by the results of the applicants, the preferences of those applicants, and the number of places available in the courses.

If we look at a simple example, let's say 10 people complete the GAMSAT worldwide (bear with me!) last March, and 10 people completed it last September, and for handiness sake, there are no other applicants in the system other than these 20 people. The resulting points of both groups of people were as follows:

1. 65
2. 64
3. 63
4. 62
5. 61
6. 60
7. 59
8. 58
9. 57
10. 56

So just to be clear there are 2 people with each of the scores above, 1 from last March, and 1 from last September.

All of the applicants have the following order selected on their CAO:

1. RCSI
2. UCD
3. UCC
4. UL

Now we need to know how many places each college has in their course this year. Let's say the colleges announce that they have the following number of places available:

RCSI: 5 places
UCD: 5 places
UCC: 5 places
UL: 5 places

So now, based on the points of our applicants in the system, and their preferences, the points for the courses will end up being:

RCSI: 63* (2 on 65, 2 on 64, and 1 on 63 got in)
UCD: 61 (1 on 63, 2 on 62, 2 on 61 got in)
UCC: 59* (2 on 60, 2 on 59, 1 on 58 got in)
UL: 57 (1 on 58, 2 on 57, 2 on 56 got in)

So now if we include a third sitting, March 2020, and assume that the applicants achieve the exact same results as our March 2019 and September 2019 applicants, and that they have the same order of preferences on their CAO, and that the number of places in each course remains the same.

This is what the points situation would look like:

RCSI: 64* (3 on 65, 2 on 64)
UCD: 62* (1 on 64, 3 on 63, 1 on 62)
UCC: 61 (2 on 62, 3 on 61)
UL: 59* (3 on 60, 2 on 59)

So 10 of our applicants don't get in unfortunately. 1 person on 59 points, and anybody on 58 or below don't get a place.

So with this small example, we can see the effect another sitting can have on the points of the courses, assuming that the number of places in each course remains the same. The only factors which could cause the points to go UP would be the following:

1. Number of places in the courses being reduced (unlikely).
2. The results from September 2019 for people who are applying are unusually skewed towards higher marks (unlikely)
3. There are an unusually large number of people with high points who for some reason decided not take their place in previous years, (and their place went to somebody on the same or lower points in previous years) who decide now that they want to take their place in the course they are offered (unlikely)

Overall this is looking like if anything, there would be a points drop for the courses if GAMSAT doesn't have a sitting between now and when places are offered to people starting grad med in September. The points could end up remaining the same if there are enough people with sufficient points already in the system, but missing out on a whole sitting worldwide would have to have an impact on that, no question, so a points drop would definitely be possible.

Banaba · 13-03-2020 12:22pm

So what’s everyone’s plan now? Keep studying or wait until we hear more?

Confused_! · 13-03-2020 12:23pm

Banaba wrote: »

So what’s everyone’s plan now? Keep studying or wait until we hear more?

Well I'm taking the week off anyway, they'll let us know what the story is by the 23rd, so I'm going to take it from there!

taxignorant · 13-03-2020 12:29pm

gradmedgirl wrote: »

The interview and CV and undergrad gpa wouldn't be the best method. I know nurses who have applied with 10 years+ clinical experience and have worked in areas of surgery nursing and cardiac nursing.... so can you imagine their CVs and interviews compared to someone just finishing their undergrad... and as regard to gpa, the issue there is that many people would have done their degree outside of ireland and so how do you weigh someone who has a Physics degree from UCL compared to a Ag Science degree from IT Tallaght... I think it's super difficult to use that criteria

Well designed and well structured interviews can take such differences in experience into account without unduely biasing the outcome towards those with clinical practice under their belt.

But equally, their experience as nurses; to respond to the example you gave, is so valuable and would likely make them better doctors so I think it should be taken into account.

A doctor's ability to communicate with patients in order to get the information they need in a patient history, work as part of a team and convey a diagnosis or prognosis are key qualities that can be assessed in an interview which really aren't currently assessed.

There is some evidence to support other forms of assessment for selection such as undergrad GPA, see the following paper; https://www.mja.com.au/system/files/issues/188_06_170308/wil10810_fm.pdf

Both nationally and internationally, degrees (and even diplomas and other types of awards) are regulated and have to submit to HEA and other bodies all sorts of supporting documentation as to their standard. So a level 8 or level 9 degree no matter where it is taught or what the topic is has proven it is to a certain standard.

I'm just throwing ideas out as to how gradmed courses might overcome the issue if exams cannot go ahead.

Very well done on the score you got! Maybe you can share tips with the rest of us if you haven't already on another thread?

taxignorant · 13-03-2020 12:47pm

Banaba wrote: »

So what’s everyone’s plan now? Keep studying or wait until we hear more?

Can't keep studying much as have kids off ... Thought about teaching them logarithms and radioactive decay but while they are smart it may be beyond them ðŸ˜‰ (they are under 7) May get an hour or two in the evenings in. I would imagine I will be out of the running for 2020 as a result of this but don't want to take foot off too much for Sept sitting.

sk9 · 13-03-2020 12:54pm

taxignorant wrote: »

Can't keep studying much as have kids off ... Thought about teaching them logarithms and radioactive decay but while they are smart it may be beyond them &#55357;&#56841; (they are under 7) May get an hour or two in the evenings in. I would imagine I will be out of the running for 2020 as a result of this but don't want to take foot off too much for Sept sitting.

Fair play to you doing the exam whilst looking after your kids, I studied for September last year and found it hard enough without any college/childcare and only 30h work per week. Work paid off though thankfully.

Maybe you're on to something with the teaching (seriously, two birds with one stone). Simple physics or OChem revision possibly? If you can teach it you can understand it

.

Keep in mind I have no kids myself so could be talking out of my arse

sk9 · 13-03-2020 12:56pm

aesopikea wrote: »

I'm not sure how the points would go UP in the situation where there is no sitting.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the points are based off of supply and demand are they not?

It's not as though RCSI will decide "hey, we are going to set the points at 61 this year, anybody who gets 61 or over can get in". The points are dictated by the results of the applicants, the preferences of those applicants, and the number of places available in the courses.

If we look at a simple example, let's say 10 people complete the GAMSAT worldwide (bear with me!) last March, and 10 people completed it last September, and for handiness sake, there are no other applicants in the system other than these 20 people. The resulting points of both groups of people were as follows:

1. 65
2. 64
3. 63
4. 62
5. 61
6. 60
7. 59
8. 58
9. 57
10. 56

So just to be clear there are 2 people with each of the scores above, 1 from last March, and 1 from last September.

All of the applicants have the following order selected on their CAO:

1. RCSI
2. UCD
3. UCC
4. UL

Now we need to know how many places each college has in their course this year. Let's say the colleges announce that they have the following number of places available:

RCSI: 5 places
UCD: 5 places
UCC: 5 places
UL: 5 places

So now, based on the points of our applicants in the system, and their preferences, the points for the courses will end up being:

RCSI: 63* (2 on 65, 2 on 64, and 1 on 63 got in)
UCD: 61 (1 on 63, 2 on 62, 2 on 61 got in)
UCC: 59* (2 on 60, 2 on 59, 1 on 58 got in)
UL: 57 (1 on 58, 2 on 57, 2 on 56 got in)

So now if we include a third sitting, March 2020, and assume that the applicants achieve the exact same results as our March 2019 and September 2019 applicants, and that they have the same order of preferences on their CAO, and that the number of places in each course remains the same.

This is what the points situation would look like:

RCSI: 64* (3 on 65, 2 on 64)
UCD: 62* (1 on 64, 3 on 63, 1 on 62)
UCC: 61 (2 on 62, 3 on 61)
UL: 59* (3 on 60, 2 on 59)

So 10 of our applicants don't get in unfortunately. 1 person on 59 points, and anybody on 58 or below don't get a place.

So with this small example, we can see the effect another sitting can have on the points of the courses, assuming that the number of places in each course remains the same. The only factors which could cause the points to go UP would be the following:

1. Number of places in the courses being reduced (unlikely).
2. The results from September 2019 for people who are applying are unusually skewed towards higher marks (unlikely)
3. There are an unusually large number of people with high points who for some reason decided not take their place in previous years, (and their place went to somebody on the same or lower points in previous years) who decide now that they want to take their place in the course they are offered (unlikely)

Overall this is looking like if anything, there would be a points drop for the courses if GAMSAT doesn't have a sitting between now and when places are offered to people starting grad med in September. The points could end up remaining the same if there are enough people with sufficient points already in the system, but missing out on a whole sitting worldwide would have to have an impact on that, no question, so a points drop would definitely be possible.

Good post, can see the points dropping but I wouldn't be relying on it

Think gradmedgirl was trying to put the ****s up her compititors saying scores would go up

naughty

Confused_! · 13-03-2020 3:20pm

Ah no need for swipes at anyone, it's a tense enough time and we're all worried about what it'll mean for us, and the reality is we don't know what will be this August.

Also, I heard back from UL but as expected, they don't have any answers yet, this was their reply: "I know GAMSAT are looking into rescheduling this exam. The school I’m afraid has no say in this date. Please keep an eye on your emails from GAMSAT they will keep you updated."

Also, I don't know if anyone gets those emails from Peter Griffiths from the Griffiths Review? For anyone that doesn't, this was his two cents on what the options are and what it could mean for us (I've edited it so it only has the Irish relevant details):

" 1. Gamsat is still held but at a later date. ACER have said they will be releasing another statement by the 23rd March so this is still a possibility. If this happens I feel it's extremely unlikely that the rescheduled test would be before June or July to allow time for the coronavirus restrictions to be lifted. In this case everything should proceed with uni applications etc as normal although Irish students may not discover if they have a place until very near the start date of their courses.

If Gamsat is not rescheduled and just skips to the September sitting:
For Irish candidates the situation would be much more complicated since the Irish courses all start in September.
There are 2 possibilities -
1.Universities decide to delay the start of courses a couple of months until for example late October or November, lost time could be made up with shorter holiday periods.
This would be quite feasible since Irish uni's do not hold interviews for courses requiring Gamsat but would require ACER to get the results out quickly.

2.Universities decide to recruit (for this year only) using other academic information e.g. school and university grades.
I don't think they'll swap to another test such as UCAT at this stage as it's too late."

Confused_! · 23-03-2020 11:48am

Has everyone seen the news about GAMSAT being an online test at the end of May?? It'll be very interesting to see how this is going to work, but all going well it should mean it'll count for September 2020 entry here!

musicis4life · 23-03-2020 11:52am

Yeah it will be interesting. How can we trust that we're not up against people looking at notes?

Confused_! wrote: »

Has everyone seen the news about GAMSAT being an online test at the end of May?? It'll be very interesting to see how this is going to work, but all going well it should mean it'll count for September 2020 entry here!

Confused_! · 23-03-2020 11:55am

musicis4life wrote: »

Yeah it will be interesting. Did you see it says AEST time how does that work for us in gmt?

Well I suppose that is only referring to registration time frame for now, I'm sure when they've set the official time/date for it, they'll have to set a GMT time for us? Though, we will probably get a different test to Australian cohort to prevent cheating, as they will have finished by the time we start?

taxignorant · 23-03-2020 11:56am

I'm fairly screwed, this was my worst case scenario. I have no way to study while taking care of kids, partner is Frontline medical staff and I am too. Im not even sure kids won't be bursting into room mid exam as we can't send them anywhere with quarantine!

Will try it out but heck these are crazy times. I'm glad people won't miss out entirely who wanted to apply this year.

Tacadh · 23-03-2020 1:45pm

This will be so strange, and it’ll leave the exam very easy to cheating. What’s to say someone won’t have somebody else in the room with them while doing the exam who has done it before or something? Surely there’ll be webcam monitors or something to prevent cheating?

Confused_! · 23-03-2020 2:37pm

Tacadh wrote: »

This will be so strange, and it’ll leave the exam very easy to cheating. What’s to say someone won’t have somebody else in the room with them while doing the exam who has done it before or something? Surely there’ll be webcam monitors or something to prevent cheating?

Yeah very hard to see how they can prevent cheating this way! Most speculation is that they will use webcams, but there's still a lot they won't be able to see with a webcam, and it would be pretty hard to monitor hundreds of students via webcam at the same time. And how will they manage toilet breaks? Still a lot to find out yet!

Tacadh · 23-03-2020 3:10pm

Confused_! wrote: »

Yeah very hard to see how they can prevent cheating this way! Most speculation is that they will use webcams, but there's still a lot they won't be able to see with a webcam, and it would be pretty hard to monitor hundreds of students via webcam at the same time. And how will they manage toilet breaks? Still a lot to find out yet!

My guess is that they’ll have a certain amount of online invigilators watching webcams, maybe flagging suspicious activity and there might be a keystroke logger or something to stop cheating. It’ll be an interesting one that’s for sure anyway

Planemo · 23-03-2020 9:08pm

I think this is highly unfair tbh. How can you compare the scores of the May 2020 sitting with September 2019, May 2019, and September 2018 when they weren't sat under the same conditions? What about people who don't have access to a home PC/webcam or have a bad internet connection (esp. people in rural areas)? I feel like I don't stand a chance with this because cheating will be so rampant. This is ACER not wanting to refund people's money and offering a poor alternative. Extremely disappointed.

corkgal_89 · 23-03-2020 9:13pm

Agree with all the above.. webcams monitoring or not - people could just get someone else to sit the test for them entirely.. Probably shouldn't be complaining considering it's still going ahead! Just can't see myself scoring as high when trying to do the test on a laptop.. even the essay component.. much easier for me to put pen to paper and let the words flow on the page! Or if your connection is dodgy / you get cut off half-way through the test you're more or less screwed.. Definitely not sure how I feel about all of this!!

purnimasnow · 24-03-2020 11:07am

I would imagine there is going to be some stringent measures in place regarding webcams, and programmes that monitor your computers activity. I know they have done that previously for Tax Exams in Ireland, at random an invigilator will ask you to turn your laptop around and give a tour of the room. I guess its just the best case of a bad scenario. Equally though I am very worried about peoples menacing ways to cheat and it will just knock myself down the bell curve.

Planemo · 24-03-2020 1:09pm

purnimasnow wrote: »

I would imagine there is going to be some stringent measures in place regarding webcams, and programmes that monitor your computers activity. I know they have done that previously for Tax Exams in Ireland, at random an invigilator will ask you to turn your laptop around and give a tour of the room. I guess its just the best case of a bad scenario. Equally though I am very worried about peoples menacing ways to cheat and it will just knock myself down the bell curve.

There's going to be around 1000 people in Ireland alone sitting this exam at the same time - it's impossible to manually check that many people for cheating the whole time. I know there's certain software that would prevent cheating on your computer but there are countless other ways eg. if we're allowed to go to the bathroom during the exam someone can leave and look at notes outside the room. The only thing that would really stop people is the time crunch for S3, and S1 you can't really cheat or look up the answers but the essay section is going to be a free for all.

Confused_! · 25-03-2020 11:24am

Have just seen on another forum that someone emailed ACER about cheating and they replied with this additional info (I'm sure this will be in the updated handbook next week anyway):

"The GAMSAT online test will be monitored in real time by a live proctor, who will observe each candidate as they undertake the test. Prior to the test beginning candidates will be required to show the proctor their surrounding environment using their computer's camera. This check will ensure there are no phones, books or notes close by. ID checked will also be completed prior to the test being started. If suspicious behaviour is observed the proctor will intervene if necessary and can stop the test at any time. All tests will be recorded and will be reviewed by ACER, if suspicious behaviour is observed at any time during the test.

Supporting the proctoring team will be an Artificial Intelligence (AI) system that monitors the eye line of the test taker and listens to the background noise of the room the test is being administered.

ACER will be notified within 24 hours of any misconduct incidents, and results may be cancelled if unethical behaviour is confirmed."

galwaypharmer · 25-03-2020 3:45pm

its really difficult to see how they could standardise this to make it as fair as possible for all candidates....hopefully points required for entry will stay the same or go down...it would look fairly suspicious if points requirements rose after having the exam online. Will they employ one invigilator per each candidate.... its all a bit mad!

somebodylikeme · 26-03-2020 2:12pm

I deferred my sitting until September for health reasons and I am so glad I did. I can't imagine having to sit a full length GAMSAT on a computer. I wouldn't be able with my crappy internet connection anyway but I find a computer so difficult to take in information from.

Some people will find it easier of course!

Banaba · 27-03-2020 6:42pm

Hey guys I read on another forum that acer emailed someone and told them that the exam will be held across multiple dates in Late May and apparently there will be different sets of questions and essay themes to obviously avoid cheating online.

I know the majority are against the online test and I agree it’s not going to be good but on the plus side at least we are getting a chance, albeit no ideal but if we didn’t have an exam at all until September we would also be giving out about that too. It’s a first for everyone including acer so just embrace it and see what happens. Who knows it could be the sitting that gets you the points you need

gradmedgirl · 28-03-2020 3:54pm

Banaba wrote: »

Hey guys I read on another forum that acer emailed someone and told them that the exam will be held across multiple dates in Late May and apparently there will be different sets of questions and essay themes to obviously avoid cheating online.

I know the majority are against the online test and I agree it’s not going to be good but on the plus side at least we are getting a chance, albeit no ideal but if we didn’t have an exam at all until September we would also be giving out about that too. It’s a first for everyone including acer so just embrace it and see what happens. Who knows it could be the sitting that gets you the points you need

I'm considering asking my sister to sit it for me! We look identical and she scored 65!! Aaaah the temptations!

Coronovirus - Gamsat MARCH 2020

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