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11-09-2020, 19:03   #61
SuperRabbit
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On that topic I thought The Buddha Pill was great, title sounds more cynical than the book is, a good mix of mindful enthusiasm and skepticism about the bad science and complete and utter lack of evidence for mindfulness


There's only ever been something like 2 controlled studies and both of them found that mindfulness was no more effective than the control. In one the control was listening to music that you liked (!) and in the other it was sitting perfectly still and thinking about whatever you wanted and making no attempt to control or observe your thoughts (after hearing a professor lecture about the "proven" benefits of doing so). As you can imagine I've been making a lot more time for listening to music since reading that
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14-09-2020, 15:40   #62
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I wonder who did the studies?

Most I think would say listening to music is being mindful, as is praying at home or in a church etc. There have definitely been fmri scans to show increases in density of the pre-frontal cortex and benefits from, which lapse off over time, and a difference between experienced and novice.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6778831/
https://www.researchgate.net/publica...f_fMRI_Studies
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-47470-4

I think the tweet is really pushing the fact that these are being used as a cheaper panacea instead of solving the base psycho/social problems. The same argument can be made for medication.

My personal experience of mindfulness has been broadly beneficial but I definitely went down a dark hole of apathy which is (imho) it's logical end point. I think it has it's place, as in being still for a while, but whether that takes place via music, fishing, praying or meditating isn't the issue for me.
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14-09-2020, 16:18   #63
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Originally Posted by Freedive Ireland View Post
I wonder who did the studies?

Most I think would say listening to music is being mindful, as is praying at home or in a church etc. There have definitely been fmri scans to show increases in density of the pre-frontal cortex and benefits from, which lapse off over time, and a difference between experienced and novice.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6778831/
https://www.researchgate.net/publica...f_fMRI_Studies
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-47470-4

I think the tweet is really pushing the fact that these are being used as a cheaper panacea instead of solving the base psycho/social problems. The same argument can be made for medication.

My personal experience of mindfulness has been broadly beneficial but I definitely went down a dark hole of apathy which is (imho) it's logical end point. I think it has it's place, as in being still for a while, but whether that takes place via music, fishing, praying or meditating isn't the issue for me.
It's all very well cited, the studies showing benefits didn't have proper controls (going about your life as normal is not a proper control), if they had a control at all. And they were usually tiny. Maybe music also shows the same benefits in an fMRI? Or reading? Or study? Or eating spinach? They didn't check. Sounds like you'd find the book very interesting!

In the meantime, this is free: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5353526/
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19-09-2020, 18:29   #64
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you know i don't think it clicked with me first what you meant by apathy but yeah that's so true. The "spiritual bypass" might be another side of it. I've been in that zone, it's very nice, but it's not "enlightened" or anything it's some kind of... I don't know... It's a nice place to visit but I don't want to live there. I want to like things, I want to want, I want to have preferences, I want to get annoyed about silly things sometimes. And I definitely don't want to feel like I'm floating far above anyone who is still experiencing those things! Is that the sort of thing you meant?
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21-09-2020, 16:46   #65
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I think it can be beneficial but it's not for everyone. I definitely found it calming and grounding. I love going down to the Buddist gaff in Cork and meditating in the room there. I've had some trippy experiences with it but the place in Cork is spectacular in its setting in any case so I can get pretty tripped out over nature.

What I mean by that is the sense of connection and appreciation. Has this benefited my life? Yes, can I prove that? No many other things changed in my life as well. One aspect, that is different, is my reactions to stressful situations. I was taught autogenic training. It was explained to my by someone who has English as a second language. Anytime I meditate in practice or before a dive in the sea I place my tongue at the back of my tooth front teeth. I try to keep it there most of the time I meditate.

Like a Pavlovian response my body now associates the placing of my tongue there as an indication that I want to relax. The proponents would say I am influencing the parasympathetic nervous system through the vagus nerve. Fine, I just know that it helped my hold my breath for longer which is want I wanted. I found the same holds true when faced with a personal verbal attack etc, I remain calm for the most part and wonder why, why am I am being attacked and what is driving the other persons behavior instead of reacting to it. Again I am open to the idea that this just comes with advancing years and no longer giving a flying etc....
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24-09-2020, 19:17   #66
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Ah that's a really good idea! Associating something with that mental state, like a cheat code that allows you to jump a few levels Must start tonguing myself when I meditate
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25-09-2020, 09:53   #67
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Must start tonguing myself when I meditate
And you wonder why Buddists are happy.
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09-10-2020, 12:01   #68
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The Lancent Psychiatry podcast.

Episodes:

'Life after suicide', with Angela Samata on her husband's suicide, raising her children, nerves about going to support group and what convinced her to go public with her story. Very good.

'Getting active', with psychiatrist Fiona Gaughran of the UK National Psychosis Service re health, mental health and smoking, medication. Good to hear an Irish voice on a mental health podcast.

Last edited by The Black Oil; 09-10-2020 at 15:45.
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