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Witnessing a car incident

2

Comments

  • #32
    themandan6611
    Registered Users Posts: 1,627 ✭✭✭themandan6611


    Got the acknowledgement of my complaint from GSOC yesterday, will see how it rolls and will update here.

    I guess as a previous poster said, we don't call things out enough and have a culture of shoulder shrugging, little steps by a lot is probably the only thing we can do.

    Re the Traffic Watch option, they were my initial port of call but as soon as they heard there was damage caused they advised (rightly or wrongly) they could not deal with it and it needed to be brought to the attention of the Gardai.


  • #33
    Muahahaha
    Registered Users Posts: 19,609 ✭✭✭✭Muahahaha


    GM228 wrote: »
    Gardaí are not obliged to perform any of their prosecutorial or investigatory functions, they have complete discretion in that regard.

    Having no obligation to investigate a crime seems a bizarre way to operate. Does anyone know the legislation that outlines this discretion? If they are not going to investigate an alleged crime they should at least be giving the public a valid reason for not doing so.


  • #34
    Discodog
    Registered Users Posts: 15,817 ✭✭✭✭Discodog


    Muahahaha wrote: »
    Having no obligation to investigate a crime seems a bizarre way to operate. Does anyone know the legislation that outlines this discretion? If they are not going to investigate an alleged crime they should at least be giving the public a valid reason for not doing so.

    And it could an incentive to corruption.


  • #35
    Muahahaha
    Registered Users Posts: 19,609 ✭✭✭✭Muahahaha


    Discodog wrote: »
    And it could an incentive to corruption.

    It certainly could but the main thing is you'd just think that if a crime is reported they are obliged to investigate. I wonder what way it is done in the UK?


  • #36
    BrianBoru00
    Registered Users Posts: 1,035 ✭✭✭BrianBoru00


    Muahahaha wrote: »
    Having no obligation to investigate a crime seems a bizarre way to operate. Does anyone know the legislation that outlines this discretion? If they are not going to investigate an alleged crime they should at least be giving the public a valid reason for not doing so.

    Just clarifying - Hitting another car isn't a crime.
    Leaving the scene of a traffic offence and failing to report it would be.
    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1961/act/24/section/72/enacted/en/html#sec72
    Muahahaha wrote: »
    Can you clarify that or point to the legislation. Like receiving information is one thing, but acting on it another. There seems to be a pattern where some Gardai can give you the run around when you're trying to submit an allegation of a crime. I'm also aware of them making legal judgments i.e 'sorry thats a civil matter, we cant help you' in an instance where violence had been threatened and could be proved by text message, they still didnt want to act.

    I don't believe it is explicitly stated in statute, rather it comes from the Garda Siochana Act :
    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2005/act/20/section/7/enacted/en/html

    But organisationally what the OP has reported on is very wrong and against several of the arcticles in the gardas own standards :
    https://www.garda.ie/en/About-Us/Publications/Policy-Documents/Declaration-of-Professional-Values-and-Ethical-Standards.pdf
    Gardaí have a contract in which they are obliged to uphold to law of the land so that gives broad scope so while they do not have to pursue an investigation they do have to have a reason for not pursuing it - e.g. Mad Max reporting that aliens have destroyed his picket fence!!
    GM228 wrote: »
    Gardaí are not obliged to perform any of their prosecutorial or investigatory functions, they have complete discretion in that regard.

    I don't believe this is the case as per above comment.


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  • #37
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    Muahahaha wrote: »
    Having no obligation to investigate a crime seems a bizarre way to operate. [B[Does anyone know the legislation that outlines this discretion?
    [/b] If they are not going to investigate an alleged crime they should at least be giving the public a valid reason for not doing so.

    It is a common law power (and the oldest common law power still in existance) as opposed to a legislated power.

    Nearly every Police force in the world has power of discretion.

    Muahahaha wrote: »
    It certainly could but the main thing is you'd just think that if a crime is reported they are obliged to investigate. I wonder what way it is done in the UK?

    The UK also have a power of discretion, but a Police officer there can be prosecuted for failure to act depending on the facts of the case.

    Previously a member of Gardaí could be prosecuted for failure to investigate a crime, but only if it was (a) a felony (which was a serious crime) and (b) there was a named suspect, that is no longer the case.


  • #38
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    BrianBoru00 wrote: »
    Just clarifying - Hitting another car isn't a crime.
    Leaving the scene of a traffic offence and failing to report it would be.
    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1961/act/24/section/72/enacted/en/html#sec72

    Hitting another car in and of itself is not a crime, but, it can potentially result in another offence depending on the facts.

    Also you are citing the wrong section of the 1961 Act, S106 is the appropriate section.
     

    BrianBoru00 wrote: »
    I don't believe it is explicitly stated in statute, rather it comes from the Garda Siochana Act :
    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2005/act/20/section/7/enacted/en/html

    It comes from common law, not the 2005 Act, although the power is protected by the Act.
     

    BrianBoru00 wrote: »
    But organisationally what the OP has reported on is very wrong and against several of the arcticles in the gardas own standards :
    https://www.garda.ie/en/About-Us/Publications/Policy-Documents/Declaration-of-Professional-Values-and-Ethical-Standards.pdf
    Gardaí have a contract in which they are obliged to uphold to law of the land so that gives broad scope so while they do not have to pursue an investigation they do have to have a reason for not pursuing it - e.g. Mad Max reporting that aliens have destroyed his picket fence!!

    Neither standards nor contractual provisions can over ride common law or statute.



     
    BrianBoru00 wrote: »
    GM228 wrote: »
    Gardaí are not obliged to perform any of their prosecutorial or investigatory functions, they have complete discretion in that regard.

     I don't believe this is the case as per above comment.

    It is the case, have a read through this thread:-

    [Url] https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057648766[/url]


  • #39
    NSAman
    Registered Users Posts: 3,386 ✭✭✭NSAman


    declan2693 wrote: »

    Mod
    Take it easy there. I have had many dealings with AGS, Incidents quoted are not typical inho[/B].

    Sorry, but the experiences of people on this thread and the many I have had with the gardai, seem to back up what many people think.

    There is a severe lack of following up on incidents, laziness and frankly, don’t give a ****tery by many in the force.

    I could give many many examples personally but I would not like to bore people. The above examples speak for themselves.


  • #40
    BrianBoru00
    Registered Users Posts: 1,035 ✭✭✭BrianBoru00


    GM228 wrote: »
    Hitting another car in and of itself is not a crime, but, it can potentially result in another offence depending on the facts.

    Also you are citing the wrong section of the 1961 Act, S106 is the appropriate section.





    It comes from common law, not the 2005 Act, although the power is protected by the Act.





    Neither standards nor contractual provisions can over ride common law or statute.





    It is the case, have a read through this thread:-

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057648766

    I'll have to bow to your superior legal knowledge. My interactions are more to do with the practical day to day running of the force where they are obliged to take a report.
    So while not legally obliged, for the force to run correctly they should still be taking the report.

    If they don't take a report, from an operational point of view they would certainly be open to disciplinary action. Now as you've pointed out they would win a legal case based on that other discussion.
    And I suppose given it is the Legal Discussion thread my reply was not 100% accurate - but were I in the OPs situation I would be asking the member for their name and supervisor and making a complaint.


  • #41
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    BrianBoru00 wrote: »
    If they don't take a report, from an operational point of view they would certainly be open to disciplinary action

    They can't lawfully be disciplined for using discretion unless it is used for their personal gain.


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  • #42
    BrianBoru00
    Registered Users Posts: 1,035 ✭✭✭BrianBoru00


    GM228 wrote: »
    They can't lawfully be disciplined for using discretion unless it is used for their personal gain.

    But wouldn't that just come down to proving its a discretionary decision as opposed to just plain laziness in not following procedures?


  • #43
    Credit Checker Moose
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,226 ✭✭✭Credit Checker Moose


    Surely there is some distinction between discretion and dereliction of duty?

    Could they use discretion not to investigate serious offences?


  • #44
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    BrianBoru00 wrote: »
    But wouldn't that just come down to proving its a discretionary decision as opposed to just plain laziness in not following procedures?

    It does not really matter if they are being lazy or not, discretion is a choice which they can lawfully make, how they come to make that choice is irrelevant.


  • #45
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    Credit Checker Moose wrote: »
    Surely there is some distinction between discretion and dereliction of duty?

    Could they use discretion not to investigate serious offences?

    Well discretion has been applied (both here and in the UK) to allegations of rape (and to note the highest courts in both jurisdictions aswell as the European Court of Human Rights have not sided with the victims when they later claimed for negligence), it does not get much more serious than that.


  • #46
    bobbyss
    Registered Users Posts: 5,189 ✭✭✭bobbyss


    themandan6611 wrote:
    Got the acknowledgement of my complaint from GSOC yesterday, will see how it rolls and will update here.


    How about cc to Drew Harrison (is that his name?). He wants to change things. Including good for nothing lazy gardai.

    Mod
    Be nice here, pls


  • #47
    themandan6611
    Registered Users Posts: 1,627 ✭✭✭themandan6611


    bobbyss wrote: »
    How about cc to Drew Harrison (is that his name?). He wants to change things. Including good for nothing lazy gardai.

    Mod
    Be nice here, pls

    I would hope that GSOC produce an annual report much like the financial ombudsman does giving details on complaints (be they upheld, partially upheld or rejected) which Garda Management can, if they so wish, review.


  • #48
    kurtainsider
    Registered Users Posts: 324 ✭✭kurtainsider


    GM228 wrote: »
    They can't lawfully be disciplined for using discretion unless it is used for their personal gain.

    Could this be true? It sounds like nonsense to me. In that case a guard can only be disciplined for corruption where the gain personally from it. Discretion, while essential, is wide open to abuse in that case by guards who are too lazy, hungover, depressed, tired, cynical etc etc to actually do the job the taxpayer pays them to do. It that actually the case?


  • #49
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    kurtainsider wrote: »
    Could this be true? It sounds like nonsense to me. In that case a guard can only be disciplined for corruption where the gain personally from it. Discretion, while essential, is wide open to abuse in that case by guards who are too lazy, hungover, depressed, tired, cynical etc etc to actually do the job the taxpayer pays them to do. It that actually the case?

    Gardaí have the ultimate discretion when it comes to their duties, you can't discipline them for doing something they are lawfully entitled to do. The common law allows them do so, it does not carry a subject to explaining yourself provision.


  • #50
    Credit Checker Moose
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,226 ✭✭✭Credit Checker Moose


    So they could ignore a murder if they wanted to?


  • #51
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    Credit Checker Moose wrote: »
    So they could ignore a murder if they wanted to?

    Strictly speaking yes, but the reality is they wouldn't, although they have ignored allegations of rape (of a minor I might add) previously.


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  • #52
    odyssey06
    Registered Users Posts: 27,786 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    GSOC discipline Garda for neglect of duty for failing to followup on report of rape.

    https://www.msn.com/en-ie/news/newsireland/garda-did-not-investigate-rape-complaint-despite-being-reminded-15-times/ar-AABoOIa

    Doesnt say anything about discretionary powers.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • #53
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    Oldest trick in the book.

    Lad who hit the car abandons it and goes home and reports the car stolen.

    and there the story ends.


  • #54
    funkey_monkey
    Registered Users Posts: 8,043 ✭✭✭funkey_monkey


    Muahahaha wrote: »
    So went back to Pearse St station a few days later had to spend a good while slowly reading out the statement to the Garda as he wrote it down on official Garda notepaper.


    WTF? What century are those boyos operating in? Can they not type it up and sign it (or even better an e-signature)?


  • #55
    Muahahaha
    Registered Users Posts: 19,609 ✭✭✭✭Muahahaha


    funkey_monkey wrote: »
    WTF? What century are those boyos operating in? Can they not type it up and sign it (or even better an e-signature)?

    I thought the same myself. I had thought by typing up the statement and printing it out and signing it would speed up things for both the Garda and for me. But he explained that if it ended up in court and my statement as evidence was not on official Garda notepaper then it could result in the case getting struck out. I guess it was a matter of the Garda has to literally witness your statement word for word and they can't accept typed statements, or at least that was the impression I was given.

    Reading the entire statement out to him slowly to write down was excruciating. The Garda himself was sound out and very helpful but he wouldn't have won any spelling competitions in school. At one stage while slowly reading it out he stopped me and asked me to spell out the word 'consequently', I had to hold the laughter in. Later on in the review I spotted a couple of they're/there/their errors but at that stage I was in the room for almost an hour so no bloody way was I going to raise them, I just wanted to get out of there.

    As said in a previous post things are not easy when you are trying to do the right thing. Gladly my situation worked out and the Garda cautioned the taxi driver who knocked over the cyclist. It turned out that the taxi driver reported himself a few hours after I did so he knew he was in the wrong. At least he had his card marked even if it did cause me a fair bit of hassle and wasted time.


  • #56
    Credit Checker Moose
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,226 ✭✭✭Credit Checker Moose


    I am sure solicitors fire in prepared statements for their clients all the time. I doubt some on is transcribing them by hand for the client to sign.


  • #57
    Claw Hammer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,153 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    Credit Checker Moose wrote: »
    I am sure solicitors fire in prepared statements for their clients all the time. I doubt some on is transcribing them by hand for the client to sign.

    Why would solicitors be firing in or otherwise be submitting prepared statements for their clients?


  • #58
    Credit Checker Moose
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,226 ✭✭✭Credit Checker Moose


    Maybe their clients don't want to speak to the Gardaí directly?


  • #59
    Claw Hammer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,153 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    Credit Checker Moose wrote: »
    Maybe their clients don't want to speak to the Gardaí directly?

    They don't speak at all or they go to the guards and are interviewed under caution. Prepared statements are never given to the guards by solicitors. There is absolutely no benefit to their client in doing so.


  • #60
    m5ex9oqjawdg2i
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,221 ✭✭✭✭m5ex9oqjawdg2i


    I was down €900 because some degenerate scumbag drove their heap into my parked car in a supermarket in Blackrock. Garda had the audacity to say he checked the cctv footage and didn't see anything. I didnt give him a time, or specific location of the car. Absolute liar.

    Another time I witnessed a hit and run. Took down the reg and reported it to the Gardai. "It's a civil matter and we cant get involved. Another useless lazy so and so.

    Go directly to the scumbags insurance, see how that goes ;)


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  • #61
    RobbieMD
    Registered Users Posts: 449 ✭✭RobbieMD


    Claw Hammer wrote: »
    They don't speak at all or they go to the guards and are interviewed under caution. Prepared statements are never given to the guards by solicitors. There is absolutely no benefit to their client in doing so.

    Prepared statements are used. The Garda puts the caution at the top and some other bits. Reads it over to them and they sign it in the Garda’s presence. Happens sometimes but not a lot.


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