Genealogy and a sense of place and time

P. Breathnach · 09-06-2011 12:54pm #1

I feel like writing a few words as a preliminary to posing a question.

Discovering the names of ancestors is only moderately interesting. I have become very interested in trying to relate to the lives that people lived and the places where they lived them. The snippets that we can glean about our ancestors can help us construct ideas about what shaped attitudes held in our families (the ideas might be wrong, of course, but there is something that appeals about constructing your own origins myth).

Two of my grandparents were born in Arklow, but met and married in Dublin over 100 years ago. The maintenance of connections with Arklow was weak. I met two of my grandmother's siblings there when I was a child, but no other connections. I did not even know that my grandfather was also from Arklow until recently.

A few weeks ago I visited Arklow to get my head around the places where my ancestors lived. I was able to visit places associated with my grandmother, including seeing a family home that is still standing. In relation to my grandfather, I had only a reasonably good idea of location, and was able to visit the other end of the town and say to myself: "somewhere near here, and perhaps in a cottage like that one...".

Herself and I stayed in the Woodenbridge Hotel about four miles outside the town on the road leading to Avoca (nice hotel, and I would go there again).

Since that visit, I have figured out that my great-grandfather came from Woodenbridge, and that I actually strolled a little in the townland where he lived.

I have put another visit to Arklow in my diary, this time accompanied by a sister who is interested in what I have been finding out. So I thought it would be good to get an extra detail into the programme, and get a precise fix on the family location in Woodenbridge. Griffith's is the tool for that. So I did a search, and found his record. Then I looked at the map, and could not find the house.

I cannot post direct links to the page reference and the map, but if you go to http://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/index.xml and search for Walsh, Patrick, County Wicklow, Parish Ballintemple you will find them. If you feel like looking them up, perhaps you will see my difficulty. One possibility is that I missed seeing something that is actually there.

I also checked the OS maps for the location. There is nothing relevant there -- in fact the one house I see in in the section has disappeared by the time the 25" map was drawn.

Ideas would be welcome. Will it again be "somewhere near here..."?

yaledo · 09-06-2011 2:48pm

P. Breathnach wrote: »

If you feel like looking them up, perhaps you will see my difficulty.?

Griffiths valuation says Patrick Walsh (together with Peter Russell) leased a house but no land. It has a map reference of 11a. The map with GV shows only one building within the area of plot 11, marked as 11b - the map shows no other buildings - it does not show 11a (your ancestor's house).

The original OSI map also shows only one house - the one marked 11b: http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,718351,676849,6,7

As you say, the 25" map shows that by 1910(ish) there were no houses in this plot. Aerial photos show that this is still the case.

If you are visiting the area, it could be worth checking out the structure here: http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,717987,676947,6,7

It's not marked on the maps, but it's visible in aerial photos, and it may be of some significance, given that the border of the townland seems to take a detour around it. It could be a fairy ring, it could possibly even be the location of your family's house. At the very least, it could be a structure that your ancestors knew well.

You could rule in or out the possibility that this was the missing house by comparing the date of GV for the area and the date when the map was produced - or by visiting the structure in the flesh, or asking the current landowner why the border of the townland has a kink in it there.

P. Breathnach · 09-06-2011 3:42pm

Thanks, yaledo.

The house that Patrick Walsh and Peter Russell shared had a valuation of £1.0.0, which makes it probably more substantial than the £0.5.0 house that shows on the map. That "kick" in the field boundary is very interesting, and certainly worth looking at, especially as a lane leading to it seems to have been created between the time of the original OS map and the 25" one. This type of effort feels a bit like Time Team, one of my favourite television programmes.

If I'm lucky, I might find somebody in the locality who knows the land. Even if I don't, the lane still exists, and I should be able to find the spot and fantasise about walking where my great-great-grandparents walked.

Your suggestion of a fairy ring has some appeal. As I said in leading into my question, I am playing with the construction of a personal myth of origin. Being descended from the sídhe would certainly add a nice twist.

Dun · 09-06-2011 8:57pm

I reckon some of those numbers may be wrong. If you have a look at 12, it is supposed to be 20 acres, and doesn't have any a, b, c, etc. It looks like what is 13 on the map is 12 on the actual valuation. It's something maybe to look into.

hblock21 · 09-06-2011 10:01pm

The maps for Griffiths were not done at the same time as the valuation. The maps were done up some years later and then there was a revision again some years later again. It is my understanding that there are two Griffiths maps. Unfortunately as the first one was not done at the same time as the valuation some plots do not match up. I do not think there is a way around this.

I stand to be corrected.

P. Breathnach · 09-06-2011 11:08pm

Thanks, Dun.

Yes, it looks as if 12 and 13 have been reversed. The only other plot that looks questionable (in regard to size) is 10A, but I think that is explained by some land to the east of Coolgarrow being counted in with it -- there is a liaison mark on the eastern boundary of the townland with the number 10 on it.

I can reconcile all the other entries in the listing with the map references with the exception of the house that I am missing.

Thanks also hblock21 for your comments. Pennies are starting to drop now. The map with Griffith's shows the railway spur line from Woodenbridge to Aughrim: that was not built until 1864, although I suppose the land had been secured for it earlier. So yes, it seems that the mapping is of later date than the survey (which I think happened in that area in 1854). It might be the case that the house was gone by the time the valuations were mapped, so the most convenient thing was to omit it.

But I can't stop there and say that the puzzle has been solved. There is no extra house in the earliest OS map which dates from about the 1830s. I have references to the family being in Coolgarrow in 1835, 1837, and 1839, and references from 1830 and 1842 to their being in the parish, but not giving a precise location. So they were there, and in 1854 GV has them sharing a house with a PLV of £1.0.0, but there is no trace on any map of the house or where it might have been, with the only candidate location being a boundary line with an interesting kick in it.

I hope that when I get to Coolgarrow I can find an old countryman who knows every field and its history. But maybe I am fifty years too late for that.

shanew · 10-06-2011 7:59am

just a note about the Griffith's maps on AskAboutIreland - they are not the the originals, and are based on slightly later OSI maps, with the site numbers recently added in.

The best version of the maps are the originals, scans of which are on OriginsNetwork - these are in black and white, and were assembled and scanned in a joint project between Eneclann and the National Library. As far as I know the OriginsNetwork is still available free on the computers in the NLI

Shane

P. Breathnach · 10-06-2011 10:13am

Thanks, Shane.

Have you any awareness of omissions or errors in the later maps? I infer that if the originals are "the best versions", then the later ones are in some way less than best.

I mentioned the railway line shown in the map of Coolgarrow, even though it did not exist until the best part of ten years after the valuation. Yet the route of the line, a ribbon of land, is marked as a holding. It makes one wonder how long-term the forward planning for railway construction was in those days. Had the route been secured ten years before the line was built? It's a digression from my search for a house, but I have a minor interest in the railway because in the 1870s my great-grandfather was a railway employee. I am inclined to think that living in proximity to the line had much to do with that.

I have asked the NLI if the scanned maps are available. Another visit to Dublin might be on the cards.

shanew · 10-06-2011 10:23am

I've come across a number of instances where the plot references and boundaries do not quite match up with the AskAboutIreland maps... so it's not unusual. Even on the original maps many of the smaller plots of land and cottages are not always accurately indicated with plot references..

I'll have a quick look for the townland on Origins and see if the map is any different.

Shane

shanew · 11-06-2011 4:50pm

I had a look on origins for Patrick's listing on Griffith's and there's no OS map or town plan link given for Coolgarrow townland. I'll have another go later on and see if I can get to it via an adjacent townland..

Shane

P. Breathnach · 11-06-2011 5:41pm

Thanks, Shane.

Is there any possibility that the original map has been lost?

I'm a bit puzzled about GV. I don't understand why the holdings are marked on maps of later date, and that it is these later maps that are given with AskAboutIreland. There must have been a reason, but I can't guess at what it was.

I note that the southern boundary of Coolgarrow is defined by a stream which has an interesting name: Goldmines River. Maybe I should bring a pan with me when I go to pay homage to the ancestral ghosts, and see if I can get myself a bit of that elusive Wicklow gold.

shanew · 11-06-2011 6:50pm

I think just the map link for that townland may just be missing.. so it should be oncluded on of the sheets available.

not sure about the reason for the maps.. but know that the AskAboutIreland one is from a slightly later date, and also different notations. The original maps have what look like hand written plot numbers and notes.

Shane

shanew · 12-06-2011 10:57am

I had a search on Origins for a number of the surrounding townlands, and for the parish - and have not been able to find one with the map link yet... very strange. I did stumble across a map for a Coolgarrow, but it turns out it's a different one in a nearby parish..

There must be an original Grffith's map for the parish somewhere..

Shane

P. Breathnach · 12-06-2011 11:07am

I am really appreciative of all the effort you are investing in this, Shane.

I enjoy my efforts, but a great part of that enjoyment comes from the personal dimension: these are my people (caveat: unless I am mistaken in linking my great-grandfather with this family). There is the secondary reward of learning the methods of genealogy as I stumble forward (or is it backward?).

I hope that you are getting something out of this -- perhaps like the satisfaction I can get from solving a crossword puzzle.

P. Breathnach · 12-06-2011 11:27am

I have to wonder if my Walsh or Byrne ancestors were on that land a generation previously. The existence in GV of another Walsh household and several Byrne households in the townland is consistent with the idea of families with deep roots in the area. Unprovable, of course.

And that leads me further to wondering if my ancestors participated in the 1796 Wicklow gold rush: http://www.geolocation.ws/v/W/4d4bb9c51d41c87cb800e643/goldmines-river-co--wicklow-in-the-late/en.

It's all speculation, but enjoyable speculation.

P. Breathnach · 13-06-2011 10:26am

I emailed the NLI about access to digitised versions of the original maps.

The answer was to tell me that the original maps are held in the Valuation Office, and that digital copies can be accessed on IrishOrigins. So not quite a straight "no", more of a "look elsewhere".

P. Breathnach · 21-06-2011 7:23pm

I did some fieldwork today, accompanied by my sister.

Preparation last night was to check into the Woodenbridge Hotel and ask if there was any member of staff available who lived in the immediate locality, and who might be able to help me trace where buildings might have existed in the nineteenth century. We met a very helpful lady who knew the townland fairly well, but could not address my particular questions. She said she knew who could: her husband's 94 year old uncle. She would speak to him, and tell us in the morning if he was available.

In between times, we visited the nearby cemetery in Ballintemple to see if we might spot any headstones that seemed to link to the family. I didn't expect to, because I think I am dealing with a landless labourer's family, and that any graves would be marked with an unsculpted uninscribed stone. And indeed we found no Walsh graves.

This morning, our friend in the hotel said that Uncle Bill would be happy to meet us, and gave us directions to find him. And we met the man who has spent his 90+ years within a couple of hundred metres of the land I am interested in. But he has no knowledge of any other house ever having been there. He did tell us, however, that if the family were there in the nineteenth century, they were unlikely to have been buried in Ballintemple: they would be buried next to an old church close to Coolgarrow.

So we proceeded there, and met a man who has been working on the land for the past 14 years. He brought us to the burial ground, which is heavily overgrown, and has only a small number of headstones. We could identify nothing relevant to our search. Our latest guide also knows the piece of land in which I am interested, and believes that there is no trace of a house on it.

So we walked the land, end to end, side to side, uphill and downhill (yes, it's hilly). In the rain. It's in pasture now, and I suspect that it has been ploughed for reseeding over the years. Not a trace of the house, although we found faint traces of the other house recorded in Griffith's. I studied the field boundaries, and found a couple of places where there were stones that might once have formed part of a bigger structure, but I wouldn't bet on them being relevant to my interest.

So I came away with some photographs, to which I can attach the captions:
1. This lane might have led to the house occupied by my great-great-grandparents between 1830 and 1854, and in which my great-grandfather was born;
2. The house in which they lived might have stood in this field, but all traces of it have now disappeared;
3. Any of the family who died in this area are probably buried in this small overgrown cemetery.

It was, despite the limited results, an interesting way to pass a few hours, and we met some nice people.

P. Breathnach · 22-06-2011 12:04pm

I don't know if I am like a dog with a bone, gnawing away to extract the last bit of marrow from it, or a dog chewing on a stick that will give him no sustenance.

My g-g-grandfather was recorded as a joint tenant in a house on a 25-acre holding which was in the name of James Hill. James Hill did not seem to have a house in Coolgarrow, so I dug a bit further, and found that in addition to the 25 acres in Coolgarrow, he held about 100 acres in the adjacent townland of Ballintemple, occupied a substantial house, and in addition to his three tenant families in Coolgarrow, had one other tenant in Ballintemple. It's fertile land, now run as an intensive dairy farm.

I am forming a mental picture of James Hill being a prosperous farmer, employing four farm-workers and providing them with cottages on his land. I parked my car yesterday right beside the house that James Hill occupied (still in use) and the farm worker we met was employed by the current owner of the property.

We might not have found the house, but I think I might have found his whereabouts.

Unless people here can stop me in my tracks and say that I am running away with myself.

slowburner · 28-06-2011 11:11am

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I have to wonder if my Walsh or Byrne ancestors were on that land a generation previously. The existence in GV of another Walsh household and several Byrne households in the townland is consistent with the idea of families with deep roots in the area. Unprovable, of course.

And that leads me further to wondering if my ancestors participated in the 1796 Wicklow gold rush: http://www.geolocation.ws/v/W/4d4bb9c51d41c87cb800e643/goldmines-river-co--wicklow-in-the-late/en.

It's all speculation, but enjoyable speculation.

I would guess that your ancestors probably did get involved in the gold rush, based on where they lived.
Possession of the gold was taken by the Kildare Militia in October of '96 so that put an end to 'peasant' involvement.
These were fascinating times in this area.

And then you'll be wondering what your ancestors were doing in '98.

slowburner · 28-06-2011 11:13am

yaledo wrote: »

Griffiths valuation says Patrick Walsh (together with Peter Russell) leased a house but no land. It has a map reference of 11a. The map with GV shows only one building within the area of plot 11, marked as 11b - the map shows no other buildings - it does not show 11a (your ancestor's house).

The original OSI map also shows only one house - the one marked 11b: http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,718351,676849,6,7

As you say, the 25" map shows that by 1910(ish) there were no houses in this plot. Aerial photos show that this is still the case.

If you are visiting the area, it could be worth checking out the structure here: http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,717987,676947,6,7

It's not marked on the maps, but it's visible in aerial photos, and it may be of some significance, given that the border of the townland seems to take a detour around it. It could be a fairy ring, it could possibly even be the location of your family's house. At the very least, it could be a structure that your ancestors knew well.

You could rule in or out the possibility that this was the missing house by comparing the date of GV for the area and the date when the map was produced - or by visiting the structure in the flesh, or asking the current landowner why the border of the townland has a kink in it there.

I couldn't see any structure in your second link, although I could see the kink in the field boundary. I scrolled through the various timelines.

P. Breathnach · 29-06-2011 1:46am

slowburner wrote: »

...
And then you'll be wondering what your ancestors were doing in '98.

If they were employed in the organised mining venture that was set up near Coolgarrow, they probably did what the rest of the local employees did, and abandoned their work to take part in the rebellion.

I have worked my way back through every line of my ancestry to the first half of the nineteenth century, and have some names (but no exact dates) of people born in the eighteenth century. Every time I pushed a line back earlier than 1850, I thought of the Great Famine, and wondered how my people fared. That's the thought that really unsettles me.

slowburner · 29-06-2011 10:10am

P. Breathnach wrote: »

If they were employed in the organised mining venture that was set up near Coolgarrow, they probably did what the rest of the local employees did, and abandoned their work to take part in the rebellion.

I have worked my way back through every line of my ancestry to the first half of the nineteenth century, and have some names (but no exact dates) of people born in the eighteenth century. Every time I pushed a line back earlier than 1850, I thought of the Great Famine, and wondered how my people fared. That's the thought that really unsettles me.

It unsettles me too. Not just imagining what it was like to live trough the horror of that time but wondering what my ancestors did to survive.

Apologies if I appear to be hijacking your thread, it's just that I have developed a complete fascination with the events of 1798 in this area. The area is so utterly steeped in history that it is hard to know where to begin.

P. Breathnach · 29-06-2011 10:46am

slowburner wrote: »

It unsettles me too. Not just imagining what it was like to live trough the horror of that time but wondering what my ancestors did to survive.

Apologies if I appear to be hijacking your thread, it's just that I have developed a complete fascination with the events of 1798 in this area. The area is so utterly steeped in history that it is hard to know where to begin.

I don't see it as hijacking. My opening post raised the question of discovering a few biographical facts about our ancestors, and wanting to invest those facts with some meaning by considering what lives that they led.

While a lot of my ancestry (3 great-grandparents) comes from the Arklow area, I have no name of anybody who was alive in 1798. It is highly probable that my people were there at the time, but I don't have the sense of "reach" that one gets from finding a family name and fact that confirms that they were in that place at that time.

The great-grandparents who lived in Coolgarrow married in 1830. If I had even one name from the previous generation, I would reach 1798, and would feel some connection with the events of that terrible time.

slowburner · 29-06-2011 11:25am

Thanks PB. Nice to know I'm not a terrorist

The period from about 1796 to 1840 would seem to be somewhat of a challenge to historians interested in this area. While the rebellion of 1798 largely petered out around the country within a year or so, it continued sporadically between Arklow and Glenmalure until 1806 (I may need to be corrected on this). It is not hard to imagine that things were difficult to record while there was such a state of upheaval.
Given the quantity of information you have already, it could be worth your while to visit some of the graveyards around the area - there are three or four in Avoca and at least one in Ballycoog. These more than likely served the Woodenbridge/Coolgarrow areas. Let me know if you need directions.
It is on my to-do list too in relation to research into 'lost' local burial grounds from 1798.
It would be fascinating to think that some of the grey areas you have come up against could be related to these lost burials.

P. Breathnach · 29-06-2011 2:36pm

slowburner wrote: »

Thanks PB. Nice to know I'm not a terrorist
The period from about 1796 to 1840 would seem to be somewhat of a challenge to historians interested in this area. While the rebellion of 1798 largely petered out around the country within a year or so, it continued sporadically between Arklow and Glenmalure until 1806 (I may need to be corrected on this). It is not hard to imagine that things were difficult to record while there was such a state of upheaval.
Given the quantity of information you have already, it could be worth your while to visit some of the graveyards around the area - there are three or four in Avoca and at least one in Ballycoog. These more than likely served the Woodenbridge/Coolgarrow areas. Let me know if you need directions.
It is on my to-do list too in relation to research into 'lost' local burial grounds from 1798.
It would be fascinating to think that some of the grey areas you have come up against could be related to these lost burials.

We are falling into that grey area between family history and local history. That's fine with me, provided that other participants in the forum (and the mods) think it okay. I have several local history studies on my desk, which I am using in conjunction with my genealogy research.

I have been to Ballycoog. It's the same cemetery I refer to as Ballintemple, because I used the name by which it seems to have been known at the period that interests me (roughly 1830-1855). The church was also known as Ballykillageer at one time.

There is another burial ground in the townland of Ballintemple, close to Ballintemple house, and another old church site close to it which I imagine could also have been used for burials.

shanew · 29-06-2011 2:54pm

There are some records of Claims for damages due to the 1798 Rebellion that might be of interest. I'm not sure where the original documents are located - presumably in the National Archives.

Eneclann scanned this collection and it's available on a CD - see : http://www.eneclann.ie/acatalog/The_1798_Rebellion__Claimants_and_Surrenders_.html

Shane

pinkypinky · 29-06-2011 3:23pm

It's also on Origins.com for subscribers.

P. Breathnach · 26-08-2011 11:52am

I finally got to the Valuation Office to see if records there would help me locate the house in which my great-grandfather was born. The lady who assisted me went through some digitised maps at a rate that left me trailing behind her (she is obviously more used to doing this stuff than I am) and could find no indication of where the house was located. She told me that she had come across this problem before: if a house had not been marked by the OS, there might be no record of where it had been. I have a suspicion that there must have been something, somewhere -- perhaps a working sketch drawn by the surveyors who did the valuation -- but it it may have been lost or the assistant in the Valuation Office did not know where to find it (which is a form of "lost"). It does not seem to be on any digitised map.

I looked at the cancelled Valuation Books, and found that a continuous record of the same two occupiers until 1870, when the house disappeared from the valuation. So did the other house on the plot. For a house to be removed from the valuation, it would need to be demolished or, at a minimum, have the roof removed. I don't know when my g-g-grandfather died, but I do know he was dead by 1876. So it looks to me as if the farmer who occupied the land, for whatever reason, put three cottages out of commission at the same time. Possibly a change in farming practice.

But I think I managed to get a clue where the house stood: one of the entries in the Cancelled Valuation Books has a bracket drawn between two plots in such a way as to suggest that the house might have been on the boundary between them. That make sense in terms of the topography, field boundaries, and access routes, and it was one of the places that I had considered a possibility when I walked the land.

When I asked how much I needed to pay for my research, I was asked if I was a student, unemployed, or retired. When I told the assistant that I was retired, I was told that the service was free.

pinkypinky · 26-08-2011 12:48pm

Shame that there isn't something physical to look at but at least it's not an unsolvable mystery. Great that's free for some people - the GRO across the corridor are more mercenary. My student card expires next week

On the plus side, it means I don't have any more genealogy lectures in UCD!!

Genealogy and a sense of place and time

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