history of Glasnevin cemetry

Fuinseog · 01-03-2012 1:43pm #1

I was reading up on body snatching recently and a few things were unclear.

I went to the exhibition at Glasnevin last year and cannot remember everything. while they have an exhibition on body snatching no corpse was ever stolen from Glasnevin. Is this accurate?

Glasnevin was opened in 1832, but I read somewhere that there was body snatching there in 1830. was it built on the site f an older cemetery?

did body snatching continue after 1832?

were Cuban blood hounds really used or it this just a myth?

Is there much to see at Bullys' Acre?

I know there is a book out on Dublin graveyards. it will not answer all my questions but looks okay.

just popped out to get said book entitled 'Dead Interesting' . interesting in parts but contains several mistakes and should have been proofread.

olly_mac · 03-03-2012 3:04pm

I read 'Dead Interesting' as well. There are some glaring mistakes in the text.

I think that the body snatching refers to the old Finglas grave yard, further up the road? I read a history of Glasnevin a few years back and think I came across the reference there. I cannot remember the author's name, but it was a slim volume, and was published by Four Courts Press.

Sorry not to be able to help more.

I just remembered; the history of Glasnevin was by someone called Connell. I think it was published in 2004 or 2005. There was another history published in 1915 by a man named O'Duffy. I think that is where I came across another reference to body snatching. Hope this helps.

Fuinseog · 03-03-2012 8:53pm

olly_mac wrote: »

I read 'Dead Interesting' as well. There are some glaring mistakes in the text.

I think that the body snatching refers to the old Finglas grave yard, further up the road? I read a history of Glasnevin a few years back and think I came across the reference there. I cannot remember the author's name, but it was a slim volume, and was published by Four Courts Press.

Sorry not to be able to help more.

I just remembered; the history of Glasnevin was by someone called Connell. I think it was published in 2004 or 2005. There was another history published in 1915 by a man named O'Duffy. I think that is where I came across another reference to body snatching. Hope this helps.

good to get a reaction. Mercier let Mac Thomais down by not proofreading properly. On page 74 Hermann Goertz becomes J F O Reilly.

an internet search turned up the following:

One of the most amazing incidents chronicled in Saunders' Newsletter is the 'Battle of Glasnevin Graveyard' (also known as Prospect Cemetery) which took place in January 1830.

the blog where it appears is not very academic and maybe the author got the year wrong? I will look into Finglas cemetry as well. A lot of interesting cemetries about the place.

olly_mac · 04-03-2012 6:14pm

There was an older graveyard in Glasnevin. I came across a reference to it in O'Duffy's book, but it did not give a location. It appears that it was also one of the supposed burial places of Robert Emmet. I will see if I can locate it on Rocque's map, next time I am in the Gilbert Library or Trinity.

Ozymandiaz · 04-03-2012 10:15pm

Fuinseog wrote: »

I was reading up on body snatching recently and a few things were unclear.

I went to the exhibition at Glasnevin last year and cannot remember everything. while they have an exhibition on body snatching no corpse was ever stolen from Glasnevin. Is this accurate?

Glasnevin was opened in 1832, but I read somewhere that there was body snatching there in 1830. was it built on the site f an older cemetery?

did body snatching continue after 1832?

were Cuban blood hounds really used or it this just a myth?

Is there much to see at Bullys' Acre?

I know there is a book out on Dublin graveyards. it will not answer all my questions but looks okay.

just popped out to get said book entitled 'Dead Interesting' . interesting in parts but contains several mistakes and should have been proofread.

There are many accounts of body-snatchers being caught in the act, so it is a fair assumption to say that bodies were successfully taken from the graveyard.

There was no graveyard there before 1832. Michael Carey was the first interrment.

Cuban blood hounds were used as watchdogs. In the oldest part of the cemetery there was a castellated compound called the 'Dog Yard' where these dogs were kenneled. The watch towers around the walls were all manned. The use of watchdogs was discontinued at Glasnevin in 1853 after the City Coroner had been chased by them.

The best book on the cemetery is William J Fitzpatrick's History of the Dublin Cemeteries Committee (1900) which gives a history of Glasnevin (Prospect) Cemetery.

hubba · 06-03-2012 3:05pm

Could this be the missing cemetery?

" It is believed that Glasnevin was founded as a monastery by Saint Mobhi in the fifth or sixth century. The monastery continued to be used for many years afterwards. St. Colman is recorded as having paid homage to its founder when he returned from abroad to visit Ireland a century after St Mobhi's death in 544. St. Columba of Iona is thought to have studied under St. Mobhi, and Glasnevin's longest street, Iona Road is named in his honor. It was home to Dean Swift, the world famous author of Gulliver’s Travels and it is widely held that Robert Emmet, the leader of the Irish Rebellion in 1803 is buried in St. Mobhi’s Protestant church. "

Extract from http://www.siopa.com/about-us/

cleverclogs84 · 08-03-2012 9:52am

I'm from the area and from my own research ( which I have yet to go into indepthly when I have the time) there is very little on a monastery being here, people tend to assume because of the watch tower but there could possibly have been at some stage. Regarding a previous cemetary, there was one here seemingly and body snatching was rife in the Finglas area. In the 1800s it was decided that a cemetary must be opened to hold not only protestants but all religions, or at least Christians also, hence gGasnevin cemetary which was seemingly the first to do this. It was focused on as a the main burial ground for the area. The walls and watch tower were built around to keep out body snatchers and seemingly worked quite well.

johnwest288 · 25-04-2012 11:00am

Just one question, am i right in saying the old castellated walls would have form a kind of horse shoe enclosure around the old part of the graveyard... What stopped people walking in through the newer part which asummingly would have been forrested area. There is no protection on that side, ROughly where the New entrance / visitor centre is across to the crematroium. Was there a wall here in old times that was knocked?

sharpeyie · 19-09-2012 1:30am

HI all.

I read somewhere recently that there are 1.5 million people buried in the cemetery. Is it me or does that sound like and awful lotta people? Anyone got any 'cemetery averages' (I understand the expression on your face right now BTW) but seriously..... is that a real figure or not quite so...?

Sharpeyie

jonniebgood1 · 19-09-2012 7:09pm

That is in around the figure mentioned in the Glasnevin museum AFAIK.

buffalo · 19-09-2012 8:10pm

sharpeyie wrote: »

HI all.

I read somewhere recently that there are 1.5 million people buried in the cemetery. Is it me or does that sound like and awful lotta people? Anyone got any 'cemetery averages' (I understand the expression on your face right now BTW) but seriously..... is that a real figure or not quite so...?

Sharpeyie

Got a tour on Monday, that was the figure cited by the guide. They have an awful lot of records, so I would trust them to be accurate. At 180 years old, that's an average of 8,300 people a year, which does seem a lot. Before the Great Famine there would've been a lot more people in the city, and a higher mortality rate before modern medicine/hygiene could also help explain it.

sharpeyie · 19-09-2012 9:04pm

I think at 1.5 million it actually equates to 8333 per year rather than 83,000. However, even 8333 per year is 23 burials per day everyday since it opened.

You're right about historical mortality rates being very different to today but 23 everday? Still sounds like a hell of a lot.

jonniebgood1 · 19-09-2012 9:53pm

It is alot but during the famine there were many mass graves in the cemetary. There are also the graves of many still born children that would be buried together, numbering in the tens of thousands from times of higher child mortality.

http://irishhungercomm.wordpress.com/2011/05/09/hunger-victims-mass-graves-at-glasnevin-cemetery/

sharpeyie · 19-09-2012 10:50pm

Thanks for that - grim reading indeed. Think that has suitably answered the question...

pedroeibar1 · 20-09-2012 11:23am

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

It is alot but during the famine there were many mass graves in the cemetary. .........
http://irishhungercomm.wordpress.com/2011/05/09/hunger-victims-mass-graves-at-glasnevin-cemetery/

The language used in several places on that site is 'emotive' and its main purpose appears to be an effort by a linked site to beatify 'Martyrs' who would not change religion and died as a result. http://www.irishhungermartyrs.org/
As a result I wonder about the figures quoted -

One such grave has from 40,000 to 60,000 “Famine” Victims/Martyrs in the Angels Plot lying side by side with the babes of innocence in Glasnevin Cemetery. It is approximately a quarter the size of a football pitch. It is some distance from O’Connell’s grave, however there is a “Famine” mass grave with 30,000 victims approximately 50 yards from O’Connell’s grave.

That means for 'An Gorta Mor' 70-90,000 deaths or +/- 20k deaths a year or 55 a day for one part of Dublin, excluding other cemeteries? How many Dublin dwellers were dependent on the potato?

buffalo · 20-09-2012 11:33am

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

As a result I wonder about the figures quoted - That means for 'An Gorta Mor' 70-90,000 deaths or +/- 20k deaths a year or 55 a day for one part of Dublin, excluding other cemeteries? How many Dublin dwellers were dependent on the potato?

Glasnevin would have been one of the very few cemeteries that accepted Catholics at the time, so a lot of Dublin dead would've been buried there. Bully's Acre would've been closed, and I'm not knowledgeable enough to know if there were any others.

jonniebgood1 · 20-09-2012 7:47pm

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

The language used in several places on that site is 'emotive' and its main purpose appears to be an effort by a linked site to beatify 'Martyrs' who would not change religion and died as a result. http://www.irishhungermartyrs.org/
As a result I wonder about the figures quoted - That means for 'An Gorta Mor' 70-90,000 deaths or +/- 20k deaths a year or 55 a day for one part of Dublin, excluding other cemeteries? How many Dublin dwellers were dependent on the potato?

The laungage used is immotive but I would think that the suggestion that there were mass graves in famine times in glasnevin would likely be correct. It helps explain the 1.5 million number which should be clearly expained as the full records of persons interred there still exists. The records are online (for a fee!).

goose2005 · 27-09-2012 7:39pm

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

As a result I wonder about the figures quoted - That means for 'An Gorta Mor' 70-90,000 deaths or +/- 20k deaths a year or 55 a day for one part of Dublin, excluding other cemeteries? How many Dublin dwellers were dependent on the potato?

Dublin dwellers were dependent on food from the countryside; if the countryside is short of food, then there'll be shortages/food-price rises in Dublin also. Also, a lot of those who died in Dublin would be rural people who went to the city during the famine due to evictions/hunger/seeking work.

pedroeibar1 · 29-09-2012 11:45pm

buffalo wrote: »

Glasnevin would have been one of the very few cemeteries that accepted Catholics at the time, so a lot of Dublin dead would've been buried there.

Wrong. I have several Catholic relatives from prior to that era buried in Church of Ireland churchyards. Up until about the time of the Famine (I think 1844) Catholics were regularly buried within Church of Ireland graveyards.

goose2005 wrote: »

Dublin dwellers were dependent on food from the countryside; if the countryside is short of food, then there'll be shortages/food-price rises in Dublin also. Also, a lot of those who died in Dublin would be rural people who went to the city during the famine due to evictions/hunger/seeking work.

Sorry Goose, that does not work. There was no major shortage of food in Dublin or many other places; there was a failure of one crop on which too many country (not city) people were dependent. Yes, some country dwellers would have gone to Dublin seeking food/work and died there, but my point is that the numbers quoted for that plot in Glasnevin just do not stack up.
Looking at the number of inmate deaths in the North Dublin Union workhouse for the four month period January – April 1847, possibly the worst (winter) period in the worst year, Black ’47, it amounted to just over 400*. That figure can be extrapolated to a max of 1,200 workhouse deaths for that year. As a workhouse invariably was the centre for the worst cases, I cannot see how the key workhouse for the Glasnevin area, with +/- 1,000 deaths for the year could relate to the annual average famine burial figure claimed for Glasnevin at 20,000 per year.

I’m quite open to a change of mind if I can be shown some facts, but I’m still waiting.

*O’Grada on Page 21 here http://irserver.ucd.ie/bitstream/handle/10197/499/ogradac_workpap_003.pdf?sequence=3

buffalo · 30-09-2012 11:09am

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Wrong. I have several Catholic relatives from prior to that era buried in Church of Ireland churchyards. Up until about the time of the Famine (I think 1844) Catholics were regularly buried within Church of Ireland graveyards.

Yes, but from what I know, they would've been charged several times the price of a CoI plot, so many were buried in poor grounds. I believe this was one of the main motivations behind starting Prospect Cemetery.

Corruptedmorals · 02-10-2012 9:43pm

I was at the tour last week and according to the guide, it was cholera epidemics and the extremely high slum mortality rate that accounted for the mass graves and high amounts of burials and not so much the famine. Seeing the area the graveyard covers and being told the amount held in the paupers plots and both holy angels plots, I have no problem believing the 1.5 mil figure. The accuracy of their records is astounding. They operate a grid system and even in the unmarked huge plots they can tell you where your relative is and how many feet under. We actually saw an old couple being led by a staff member to an exact spot in the old holy angels plot while the tour was there.

goose2005 · 02-10-2012 11:22pm

buffalo wrote: »

Yes, but from what I know, they would've been charged several times the price of a CoI plot, so many were buried in poor grounds. I believe this was one of the main motivations behind starting Prospect Cemetery.

No, the poor grounds were CoI plots (as the Established church they had responsibility for that). Catholics were not permitted to carry out the full graveside rites either.

Academic · 21-06-2013 11:39pm

Ozymandiaz wrote: »

[...]

"Cuban blood hounds were used as watchdogs. In the oldest part of the cemetery there was a castellated compound called the 'Dog Yard' where these dogs were kenneled."

Where exactly is "the oldest part"? Did it include the current main entrance on Finglas Road?

Thanks.

Cheers,

Ac

history of Glasnevin cemetry

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