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Point me in a new direction

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  • 10-07-2011 12:29am
    #1
    adee
    Registered Users Posts: 52 ✭✭


    I only found this thread last night (great resource by the way) and am already posting a plea for help! I have made lot of progress on my mum's side of the family. South docks, Dublin and Offaly. However on my Dad's side, who are all North Inner City, Dublin I have found absolutely nothing prior to the 1901 Census. They would have been living then at Jane Place Upper and Lower / Rutland Place North and Sherriff Street. All a stones throw from one another.
    No civil records, no church records Nothing. (I'm trying FamilySearch, IrishGeonology and RootsIreland)
    I have a hunch that their Parish would have been the St Mary's Pro Cathedral- based on my Dad's Baptismal Cert which I have seen. Could that have something to do with it ?
    Can anyone point me in any direction at all. I have a week off work next week and could do some legwork, but I haven't a clue where to start. All I know is whats on the census.
    Cheers


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    #2
    shanew
    Registered Users Posts: 2,777 ✭✭✭shanew


    The records for the Pro-Cathedral are not included on IrishGenealogy yet, but an update of RC records for the city is due quite soon. RootsIreland dont include city records.

    MicroFilms of RC records are available in the National Library.. there's another thread on this board which mentioned the latest details - http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056271217
    A list of the RC details in the NLI , with film references is available here : http://www.irishtimes.com/ancestor/fuses/rcparishmaps/index.cfm?fuseaction=showlikerecords&parish=Dublin&citycounty=Dublin%20city

    What details do you have at the moment ?
    It should be possible to work back from the 1901 census with civil records.

    The best starting place is usually to try to locate a birth cert for one of the children, particularly to establish the mothers maiden surname. Once you have this you can search for the marriage of the parents, and work another step back. Civil records usually give more details than parish records, so it's usually best to start with these.

    If you want to post some details we may be able to locate some possible references from the BMD Index for you..


    Shane


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    #3
    pinkypinky
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,616 Mod ✭✭✭✭pinkypinky


    I've looked at the Pro-Cathedral's microfilms quite recently.
    They're legible but immense - it and St Andrew's are the 2 biggest city parishes by far. I had an exact date to look for so that really helped me.

    Like Shane says, if you want to post up some details, we can possibly help you. Even just link us to the 2 censuses. We are just the sort of nerds who love this type of challenge. :D

    Genealogy Forum Mod



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    #4
    adee
    Registered Users Posts: 52 ✭✭adee


    Hi thanks for your replies. Well that's an offer I can't turn down!
    Mc Grane 1901
    http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/North_Dock/Jane_Place_Lower/1275303/
    So, I know nothing about these people other than in 1901 Francis (born 1866 or 1858 depending on which census you believe!) is a recent widower (youngest child is 2) but by 1911 he has a second wife (Mary) and is having more children.
    I have found a Francis Mc Grane born 5 Jan1869 to a
    Patrick McGrane/Sarah Kelly, but no reason to think that's him ?
    I am intrigued that we have a very fine oil painting of one of his predecessors, the family liking to the current generation is amazing. So I am guessing they could have had money a generation or two back down the line. I know they all either worked in the Docks or in wood factories, so can't imagine how the painting came to be. I am also trying to find out who the man in the painting might be, it is painted onto copper, so that might help date it.

    Brophy 1901
    http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/North_Dock/Sheriff_Street/1277390/
    All I know here is that I was told that at some point they lived at Tramway Cottages, Blackrock, where Thomas was a 'lighthouse painter.' Then he got a job as a full time painter at the RDS .
    Though he describes himself as a 'labourer' on both census forms, and I can't imagine why they are now living in the North Inner City
    That's it. Everything I know.

    I'll take your good advice and start with some children's birth certs. And then try over at the National Library. Sounds like a plan to me.
    If you manage to turn up anything yourselves I would be delighted.


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    #5
    tyview
    Registered Users Posts: 210 ✭✭tyview


    Hi adee,

    Not sure if you've noticed that on the 1901 census there is another mcgrane family living on the same road
    http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/North_Dock/Jane_Place_Lower/

    May be a relative...

    I also noticed on the 1911 census one of the other households on the road stated their religion as RC st lawrence o'toole so that was probably the local parish church at the time. It could narrow down your search for the Francis' second marriage.


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    #6
    shanew
    Registered Users Posts: 2,777 ✭✭✭shanew


    the most promising birth is for the youngest child, as the age is usually most accurate - Stephen Brophy is age 3 months at the time of the census (31-Mar-1901).. the registration district fits the census location :

    name: Stephen Brophy
    registration district: Dublin North
    event type: Birth
    quarter and year: Jan - Mar 1901
    volume number: 2
    page number: 432



    Shane


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    #7
    adee
    Registered Users Posts: 52 ✭✭adee


    Thanks tyview, I did see that. Bit of an age gap but reasonable to presume Michael is a brother to Francis. Also thanks for the Lawrence O' Toole tip, I see they are also in the National Library.

    One little thing I just remembered was that I have a date of death for Francis's first wife, who would have died 1899 - 1901.
    Family legend has it that she was killed while cooking Christmas dinner and the gas oven exploded :eek:


  • Options
    #8
    adee
    Registered Users Posts: 52 ✭✭adee


    shanew wrote: »
    the most promising birth is for the youngest child, as the age is usually most accurate - Stephen Brophy is age 3 months at the time of the census (31-Mar-1901).. the registration district fits the census location :

    name: Stephen Brophy
    registration district: Dublin North
    event type: Birth
    quarter and year: Jan - Mar 1901
    volume number: 2
    page number: 432



    Shane
    I'm gobsmacked ! Where did you find that ?


  • Options
    #9
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    adee wrote: »
    I'm gobsmacked ! Where did you find that ?

    Our Shane is good!


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    #10
    shanew
    Registered Users Posts: 2,777 ✭✭✭shanew


    BMD Index on Familysearch : https://www.familysearch.org/search/collection/show#uri=http://hr-search-api:8080/searchapi/search/collection/1408347


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    #11
    shanew
    Registered Users Posts: 2,777 ✭✭✭shanew


    a link to all the Stephen Brophy births on the index between 1900 and 1902 - just the one in Dublin : https://www.familysearch.org/search/records#count=20&query=%2Bgivenname%3Astephen~%20%2Bsurname%3Abrophy~%20%2Bbirth_year%3A1900-1902&collection_id=1408347


    S.


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    #12
    adee
    Registered Users Posts: 52 ✭✭adee


    adee wrote: »
    Hi thanks for your replies. Well that's an offer I can't turn down!
    Mc Grane 1901
    http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/North_Dock/Jane_Place_Lower/1275303/
    So, I know nothing about these people other than in 1901 Francis (born 1866 or 1858 depending on which census you believe!) is a recent widower (youngest child is 2) but by 1911 he has a second wife (Mary) and is having more children.
    I have found a Francis Mc Grane born 5 Jan1869 to a
    Patrick McGrane/Sarah Kelly, but no reason to think that's him ?
    I am intrigued that we have a very fine oil painting of one of his predecessors, the family liking to the current generation is amazing. So I am guessing they could have had money a generation or two back down the line. I know they all either worked in the Docks or in wood factories, so can't imagine how the painting came to be. I am also trying to find out who the man in the painting might be, it is painted onto copper, so that might help date it
    So I posted this back in early July and thought I'd update you with my findings so far. Thanks to tyview and Shanew for pointers in the right direction, I have made a great bit of progress .
    So now I know that the Francis Mc Grane, living in Jane Place (tiny 2 room cottage) was indeed married twice. Firstly to Margaret Byrne in 1883 and then to Mary Fay in 1902.He died in 1931. - His Father was a Myles McGrane married to Catherine Fenlon/Finlon. They had 4 children. The first has a baptism address of 24 Bridgefoot Street, the last 3 at 53 Church street. In Thoms 1862 I see Myles listed as the occupier of 24 Bridgefoot street and a Timber Merchant. He is also listed at the same address in Griffiths ("house, sheds and yard")The 1850 Henry Shaw Directory lists 24 Bridgefoot Street as being occupied by Christopher Mc Grane "Timber Merchant - listed as Charles" and the 1842 Pettigrew & Oulton Directory lists the occupier of 22 Bridgefoot Street as Christopher McGrane - Timber Merchant No. 24 is listed as Vacant so they must have moved there from No. 22. I am presuming that Christopher was the father of Myles
    So, as I said in my original post I was wondering how the lovely oil painting came to be, when as far as I knew they were always poor as church mice. Now I see that Francis was born to a Father and Grandfather who were Timber merchants in Kings Inn/Ushers Island, yet he himself ended up in the North Docks as a laborer. On Francis' marriage cert in 1883, father Myles is listed as a laborer as well. Big come down from the timber merchant of 1862. Or am I reading far too much into the 'merchant' term.
    Have hit a dead end as can't find any more about either Myles/Catherine or Christopher but would appreciate any thoughts on the above.


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    #13
    pinkypinky
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,616 Mod ✭✭✭✭pinkypinky


    I don't think you're reading too much into "timber merchant" at all. Have you considered looking in newspapers - it's possible the business folded or there was an accident that forced closure. The Irish Times archive is online.

    Secondly, the painting. You could inquire at the National Gallery about it. They may be able to tell you who painted it or give you further information from that angle.

    I had a look on Origins and have an additional bit of info.

    Miles McGrane has 2 listings on the 1851 head of household census fragment, one at the Bridgefoot St address and another at 38 Thomas Court in St Catherine's (civil) parish. It's possible that the latter is a different person but it's still worth noting. The 2 streets are near each other.

    Genealogy Forum Mod



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    #14
    adee
    Registered Users Posts: 52 ✭✭adee


    Thanks so much pinkypinky for that new info. Funny you should mention some horrible accident happening at the Bridgefoot St Mill because I also found this from a New Zealand Newspaper dated 20th Sept 1884.
    "A terrible accident has occurred in a sawmill in Bridgefoot-street, Dublin. A man named Stephens fell across a circular saw, and was cut in two"eek.gif
    http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&d=BOPT18840920.2.7&cl=CL2.1884.09&e=
    10--1----0--

    So, also a great idea I think to check out The Irish Times - will take out a short subscribtion over the weekend. Never thought of that as a possible lead. Tell me, I am very keen to find a marriage cert for Myles Mc Grane and Catherine Fenlon/Finlon, how would I go about that ? Search the indexes manually in the GRO ?? Nothing on the internet at all.


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    #15
    pinkypinky
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,616 Mod ✭✭✭✭pinkypinky


    It looks like they would have married around/before the start of civil registration (presuming they are Catholic). If you haven't found any matches on the LDS index, taking into account the many possible different spellings of Myles, Catherine and their surnames, then they were probably married before 1864. In which case you need the church record.

    Irishgenealogy.ie as mentioned above has the best collection of Dublin city parish records. Next month should see a new release of data.

    Genealogy Forum Mod



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