Where are the conservatives in Ireland?

Brian? · 10-05-2019 4:29pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

I think a PD’s/UKIP style party with a strong whip system telling candidates to shut their mouth on social issues like abortion and SSM would do well, its the downfall of most of these.

So you want dishonest politicians who don't speak their minds on social issues? I would never vote for someone who kept shtum and only towed the party line on all issues. I think most people would agree.

Theres definitely space for a party thats tough on crime and immigration with a lower taxes and lower spending but completely avoids iona dogma or having an opinion on abortion. Careful candidate selection and filtering of membership to keep out the likes of the sherlock family and a full SIPO registration and clear donor rules needed.

All parties talk a good game on being "tough on crime", I have never seen a party campaign on being weak on crime. It's just varying approaches. What does tough on immigration actually mean? If you approach immigration on with an economic view and not a social one, you'd actually be pro immigration.

Careful candidate selection is straightforward enough, but then you're actually subverting the normal candidate selection process so it's no longer a democratic decision within the party.

Filtering membership? No, you're limiting membership. So what you're espousing is an astroturf movement rather than a grass roots one. The first time you turn away new members you've killed the party.

What you want is more of a private club that runs candidates in elections and not an actual political party. Unless you actually want a fascist party where all the shots are called by the leader/leadership. I know you're not a fascist, so it might be worthwhile reflecting on this.

Having said all this. The "space" you have identified is extremely small. How do I know? Political parties get elected based on their manifesto. Their manifestos are based on what's popular/what will get them elected. Your abstract conservative concepts of being "tough" on crime and immigration are not popular.

Being in favour of lower taxes will get you votes. Being in favour of lower spending will not. Unfortunately it's popular to lower taxes and spend more.

Quin_Dub · 10-05-2019 5:28pm

Thrashssacre wrote: »

There is a gap in the Irish political scene for a party slightly further along the right wing spectrum to renua. If you look at the rest of Europe far right party’s tend to get around 10% of the vote or more in cases where the parties are a bit more established an politically savvy like in Italy. so to think that base just doesn’t exist in Ireland would be fairly foolish. I think eventually the national party may even fill that gap if they gain more members who are willing to be a voice for the party apart from Justin Barratt. Their stuff on YouTube is well edited and comes across very clean. Both the national party and irexit party seem to be doing a lot better online in the last 2 months or so but that may not be much of an indication of support as the numbers of subscribers aren’t exactly huge. There was a video a while back that got 150k views on one of their channels but it has since been removed, but clearly they are gaining some ground on there.

There really isn't.

If there was a market for further to the right of Renua then who exactly are those voters voting for today , because it's not Renua.

Are they all abstaining, waiting in the wings for their perfect match?

There isn't a structured right wing in this country and never has been.

At various times we've had single issue groups that gain a bit of short term traction - Anti-Immigration , Anti-Abortion , Anti-Divorce , Anti-Traveler (e.g. Casey) and the like but none have ever managed to move beyond those single issue blips to build an actual fully fledged right-wing "base"

And there's nothing to suggest that will change anytime soon.

briany · 10-05-2019 6:51pm

The terms conservative and liberal, left and right, are not meaningless, but they could truly be applied to almost no-one in the sense of defining that person. How can a person who holds a mixture of stances on different issues label themselves in a general fashion? If someone is conservative when it comes to gay marriage, but not bothered by unmarried heterosexual couples having kids, their stance isn't even social conservatism, because their problem appears to be with only one 'non-traditional' living situation. And the waters would get even muddier if someone holding that view was otherwise secular.

So, when a person asks, "Where are the conservatives in Ireland?", they're actually asking "Where are the people who are conservative on the specific issue I'm concerned about?"

Even conservatism as it's generally understood in the West has contradictions within it, like favouring neo-liberal economics.

Loafing Oaf · 10-05-2019 7:15pm

briany wrote: »

The terms conservative and liberal, left and right, are not meaningless, but they could truly be applied to almost no-one in the sense of defining that person. How can a person who holds a mixture of stances on different issues label themselves in a general fashion? If someone is conservative when it comes to gay marriage, but not bothered by unmarried heterosexual couples having kids, their stance isn't even social conservatism, because their problem appears to be with only one 'non-traditional' living situation. And the waters would get even muddier if someone holding that view was otherwise secular.

So, when a person asks, "Where are the conservatives in Ireland?", they're actually asking "Where are the people who are conservative on the specific issue I'm concerned about?"

Even conservatism as it's generally understood in the West has contradictions within it, like favouring neo-liberal economics.

In fairness to the OP, he painted a fairly coherent picture of his version of conservatism. Unfortunately for him, it's a worldview that only a small minority subscribe to in Ireland today. And most of those that do seem content to vote for FF and FG, even though those parties do not have conservative positions on most of the issues he raises.

friendlyfun · 10-05-2019 10:49pm

briany wrote: »

The terms conservative and liberal, left and right, are not meaningless, but they could truly be applied to almost no-one in the sense of defining that person. How can a person who holds a mixture of stances on different issues label themselves in a general fashion? If someone is conservative when it comes to gay marriage, but not bothered by unmarried heterosexual couples having kids, their stance isn't even social conservatism, because their problem appears to be with only one 'non-traditional' living situation. And the waters would get even muddier if someone holding that view was otherwise secular.

So, when a person asks, "Where are the conservatives in Ireland?", they're actually asking "Where are the people who are conservative on the specific issue I'm concerned about?"

Even conservatism as it's generally understood in the West has contradictions within it, like favouring neo-liberal economics.

Some in political science would even argue that conservativism is more of an attitude than an ideology.

Brian? · 11-05-2019 9:01am

friendlyfun wrote: »

Some in political science would even argue that conservativism is more of an attitude than an ideology.

That's interesting. I think I agree.

The opposite to conservatism isn't socialism, it's progressivism. But there's a large overlap between social progressives and socialists.

The word "liberal" had lost all meaning so I just ignore it these days.

Hotblack Desiato · 11-05-2019 12:06pm

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

People also have the rather annoying inability to tell the difference between moderate and extremist when talking about religion - either religion.

Simple really

Their religion which oppresses women and gays = moderate

Someone else's religion which oppresses women and gays = extremist

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

I've never been a fan of "a la carte" anything - it implies that you should let someone else establish your view point on everything without any personal thought whatsoever.

Surely that's the opposite way around.

The a la carters are picking and choosing from the religion/party whatever aligns with their beliefs and rejecting whatever does not.

The fundamentalists swallow the doctrine / party line whole and no thinking is necessary.

Hotblack Desiato · 11-05-2019 12:06pm

Thrashssacre wrote: »

There is a gap in the Irish political scene for a party slightly further along the right wing spectrum to renua.

Given the spectacular failure of Renua and all attempts at a fundamentalist catholic party, no. No there isn't a gap.

Viewing a video on the internet isn't an endorsement or a vote.

These videos get shared a lot in a "look what this bunch of eejits said now" way.

Thrashssacre wrote: »

but renua made a lot of mistakes and came from a split in a party which wasn’t exactly liked to begin with.

That party you're talking about was, and is now, the largest in the country, so if they're not liked then how liked is Renua on 1%?

briany · 11-05-2019 12:19pm

Brian? wrote: »

That's interesting. I think I agree.

The opposite to conservatism isn't socialism, it's progressivism. But there's a large overlap between social progressives and socialists.

I don't think a lot of those conservative on the issues of gay marriage and universal basic income would say that those concepts are progressive at all. They might argue that gay marriage is regressive because it thwarts the traditional nuclear family - something they might regard as essential to an optimal upbringing of children. And they could call UBI regressive because it cuts out, or loosens, the motivation to strive and work hard and better oneself.

A conservative can even argue that they are classical liberals and that modern liberalism is a bastardisation of the term.

Ultimately, it's very hard to say what unifying thread is common through those who lean left/liberal and what thread is common through the right/conservative side. We sort of have a formless idea of what these sides represent, but it's a question of what example of something in one side couldn't be met with a counter example of the same thing in the other.

Hotblack Desiato · 11-05-2019 2:29pm

briany wrote: »

A conservative can even argue that they are classical liberals and that modern liberalism is a bastardisation of the term.

Seeking to interfere in the bedroom activities of consenting adults has nothing whatsoever to do with classical liberalism.

Ultimately, it's very hard to say what unifying thread is common through those who lean left/liberal and what thread is common through the right/conservative side. We sort of have a formless idea of what these sides represent, but it's a question of what example of something in one side couldn't be met with a counter example of the same thing in the other.

That's because the left=liberal and right=conservative thing is a fallacy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_compass

Hotblack Desiato · 11-05-2019 2:56pm

Here's an example of the sort of candidate which might chime with the OP - 1991 locals.

https://irishelectionliterature.com/2009/09/09/christian-principles-party-jobs-for-youth-not-condoms/

Raising the marriage age to 18 doesn't sound very biblical, though...

James Brown · 13-05-2019 1:41pm

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Here's an example of the sort of candidate which might chime with the OP - 1991 locals.

....

Raising the marriage age to 18 doesn't sound very biblical, though...

Ah, but that's what this is all about, taking 'God's word' and twisting it to suit your agenda. You leave out the parts that don't tally, 'love they' neighbour', 'do unto others as you would do unto me' etc.

Eric Cartman · 13-05-2019 6:56pm

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Here's an example of the sort of candidate which might chime with the OP - 1991 locals.

trade unions, the environment, money for stay at home mothers, he's just staunch catholic labour.

Larbre34 · 14-05-2019 3:24am

For a long time in Ireland, every party was Conservative, even the socialist ones! Such was the church influence. And by extension, it will take a generation or two yet for that textbook conservatism to emerge from its association with the church.

Its odd really, there is an opportunity there I feel for a one-nation tory style party that isnt synonymous with abortion, divorce and gay marriage, but paternalism, pragmatism and small-C capitalism. Fine Gael were the closest but they're so centrist now im surprised the fence hasnt sliced them in half yet. I guess we had the PDs but they were killed off like so many others by being the hind tit.

At the moment Im only a centre left voter because it most represents the social liberalism i believe in, but i wouldnt rule out voting for a more conservative group that is tougher on fiscal discipline and law and order while leaving the marquee social issues up to the individual.

James Brown · 14-05-2019 2:00pm

Larbre34 wrote: »

For a long time in Ireland, every party was Conservative, even the socialist ones! Such was the church influence. And by extension, it will take a generation or two yet for that textbook conservatism to emerge from its association with the church.

Its odd really, there is an opportunity there I feel for a one-nation tory style party that isnt synonymous with abortion, divorce and gay marriage, but paternalism, pragmatism and small-C capitalism. Fine Gael were the closest but they're so centrist now im surprised the fence hasnt sliced them in half yet. I guess we had the PDs but they were killed off like so many others by being the hind tit.

At the moment Im only a centre left voter because it most represents the social liberalism i believe in, but i wouldnt rule out voting for a more conservative group that is tougher on fiscal discipline and law and order while leaving the marquee social issues up to the individual.

I don't think such a party would gain any traction. People have moved on. I know there's always room for the backward 'conservative' ways in the US, but as you say, we are still coming out from under the yoke of the Catholic church. It will be some time before we see anyone getting nostalgic about that IMO.
Politically, (policy wise) and economically Fine Gael sell themselves as fiscally conservative, but they are far from it. It's merely that they waste monies on deals with private business than invest in projects beneficial to the public. And I don't buy into their idea that helping business grow helps everyone, we see that's not so, with a growing economy and growing crises.
In short, the middle is were the votes are for now and pretenders like FF/FG are happy to espouse whatever 'values' keep them in the power seats, as shown by their current agreement.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 14-05-2019 2:13pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

trade unions, the environment, money for stay at home mothers, he's just staunch catholic labour.

Ahead of his time, really.

James Brown · 14-05-2019 2:37pm

I get the impression it's more 'a woman's place is in the home' than any socialist vent.

Nobelium · 07-06-2019 12:22am

Ireland likes to go for extremes, combined with a divide and conquer strategy.

We went from gangsters with English accents controlling the country using divide and conquer, to gangsters with Irish accents controlling the country with divide and conquer

Then we went from intolerant right wing zealots obsessed with sexual and identity politics and control by divide and conquer, to intolerant left wing zealots obsessed with sexual and identity politics and control by divide and conquer.

plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.

James Brown · 07-06-2019 6:58pm

Nobelium wrote: »

Ireland likes to go for extremes, combined with a divide and conquer strategy.

We went from gangsters with English accents controlling the country using divide and conquer, to gangsters with Irish accents controlling the country with divide and conquer

Then we went from intolerant right wing zealots obsessed with sexual and identity politics and control by divide and conquer, to intolerant left wing zealots obsessed with sexual and identity politics and control by divide and conquer.

plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.

That's the best trick though. Blaming 'left wing zealots' for all the things you might not like in modern society, yet we've the same political cartels running the country as we did 60/70 years ago.

BluePlanet · 07-06-2019 7:12pm

Nobelium wrote: »

Ireland likes to go for extremes, combined with a divide and conquer strategy.

Disagree.
Ireland is increasingly socially liberal but votes conservatively.
There's not one single 'extremist' candidate out there, other than say that culchie in Kerry.
But even in that people there are still voting for family dynasties.

Nobelium · 07-06-2019 7:45pm

Matt Barrett wrote: »

That's the best trick though. Blaming 'left wing zealots' for all the things you might not like in modern society, yet we've the same political cartels running the country as we did 60/70 years ago.

no same play . . just different actors this time . . and another transfer of power from one set of intolerant bigots to another.

AndrewJRenko · 16-06-2019 3:25pm

Nobelium wrote: »

Ireland likes to go for extremes

Extremes like Fianna Fail and Fine Gael? The two parties so centrist that they have white lines running down their back?

suicide_circus · 16-06-2019 3:52pm

i do find that i'm politically homeless in Ireland as my socio political outlooks is fair schizophrenic; some conservative ideas (personal responsibility, law and order) but also non conservative notions (universal healthcare, decriminalization of drugs). I suppose its unreasonable of me to expect to find a party to cater to my particular set of tastes so I have to compromise.

A Shropshire Lad · 16-06-2019 5:09pm

Its only a matter of time until we have more extreme politics. I think people are growing sick and tried of the same old stuff every election. They are paying high taxes and getting sh*t services, public spending is out of control with zero accountability.

Its already happened in the US and happening in the UK. We generally follow suit

Brian? · 16-06-2019 5:42pm

suicide_circus wrote: »

i do find that i'm politically homeless in Ireland as my socio political outlooks is fair schizophrenic; some conservative ideas (personal responsibility, law and order) but also non conservative notions (universal healthcare, decriminalization of drugs). I suppose its unreasonable of me to expect to find a party to cater to my particular set of tastes so I have to compromise.

I find it interesting whenever people say they believe in law and order. As if everyone doesn’t. I can’t think of a political philosophy that’s pro criminality and disorder.

Also, personal responsibility isn’t a conservative notion. It’s actually a liberal one. It’s far more conservative to regulate things like drug use, censor erotic content and rigidly enforce adherence to the norm.

Seatbelts are a great example. Conservatives would be in favour of laws dictating you wear your seatbelt. The only one you can harm by not wearing it is yourself. A liberal/libertarian idea would be: “ if you don’t wear it and die in an accident then tough”

I’m an anti authoritarian socialist, who also happens to be a pacifist and I believe in everything you do.

suicide_circus · 16-06-2019 5:55pm

a country which allows consecutive sentences, bail and early release for people with multiple serious convictions is not pro law and order. thats what i mean. when i say personal responsibility i mean providing for yourself and your family through the sweat from your own brow.. i mean realising all services and hand outs you receive from the state are provided by your fellow citizens under the threat of imprisonment. I mean not building a bungalow outside a rural village and expecting city centre services.

Brian? · 16-06-2019 6:02pm

suicide_circus wrote: »

a country which allows consecutive sentences, bail and early release for people with multiple serious convictions is not pro law and order. thats what i mean.

Yes. I know. Agreed.

when i say personal responsibility i mean providing for yourself and your family through the sweat from your own brow..

Agreed. But it means a lot more than. To me it means accepting the consequences of your own actions and not blaming others for your own failures.

i mean realising all services and hand outs you receive from the state are provided by your fellow citizens under the threat of imprisonment.

I’d much prefer to live in a society of willing participants that required no central authority, but your statement is not inaccurate.

I mean not building a bungalow outside a rural village and expecting city centre services.

As I said. Personal responsibility.

I get the impression that you don’t think we should agree? None of what you post is entirely a conservative idea.

suicide_circus · 16-06-2019 6:14pm

i dont mind if we agree, in fact the more agreement the better!

I am probably well left of centre but there are a few elements to recent leftist thought that i just cannot get on board with i.e. the stuff originating on US campuses which has become fashionable. A general victimology i suppose you'd call it.

i'd like to see the state under my feet rather than over my head. No gods, no masters, but i'm not sure humans can live like that.

AndrewJRenko · 16-06-2019 9:22pm

Brian? wrote: »

Seatbelts are a great example. Conservatives would be in favour of laws dictating you wear your seatbelt. The only one you can harm by not wearing it is yourself. A liberal/libertarian idea would be: “ if you don’t wear it and die in an accident then tough”

That's not true - you may well harm other people in the same vehicle if you go flying round after a collision. In particular, unrestrained rear seat passengers will go flying head-to-head into restrained front seat occupants.

Loafing Oaf · 16-06-2019 9:28pm

A Shropshire Lad wrote: »

Its only a matter of time until we have more extreme politics. I think people are growing sick and tried of the same old stuff every election. They are paying high taxes and getting sh*t services, public spending is out of control with zero accountability.

Its already happened in the US and happening in the UK. We generally follow suit

Yeah we slavishly follow international political trends. It's not like out politics has been based around a civil war divide for the last century or anything.

Where are the conservatives in Ireland?

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