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Creche charging for child's place during closure.

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Comments

  • #62
    Sleeper12
    Registered Users Posts: 16,867 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    If let's say the building burned down you'd usually lay off your staff and rehire them again when rebuilt. I've never heard of the insurance paying for the staff wages for the six months or years for a rebuild.


  • #63
    Toastytoes
    Registered Users Posts: 435 ✭✭Toastytoes


    Sleeper12 wrote: »
    If let's say the building burned down you'd usually lay off your staff and rehire them again when rebuilt. I've never heard of the insurance paying for the staff wages for the six months or years for a rebuild.

    I don’t think insurance directly pays wages. I think insurance pays out to business for loss of revenue.


  • #64
    Sleeper12
    Registered Users Posts: 16,867 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    Toastytoes wrote:
    I don’t think insurance directly pays wages. I think insurance pays out to business for loss of revenue.


    I don't think anyone has insurance for this. My own business doesn't nor do any of the pubs, restaurants and hairsalons that have had a close in the last few days seems to have any cover. Most I've spoken to are hoping that their staff qualify for the 305 promised by the government for the first two weeks. No one knows what will happen when the government extend this for another 2 weeks and another and another.


  • #65
    pwurple
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,449 ✭✭✭✭pwurple


    Toastytoes wrote: »
    Parents have overheads too, mortgage, food on the table, house insurance, health insurance, electricity, gas, It’s not sustainable for parents who are taking unpaid leave to mind their child to continue paying full fees.

    Apparently the matter is on the cabinet agenda for Monday so hopefully there’ll be some measures announced to help.

    I know... but from the Creche's perspective, they are unable to offer that support parents either. They can't just take out a loan to pay all their own overheads and unilaterally drop the fees. They would just go straight out of business and have to close. They all have mortgages, bills, food etc too. It's in everyone's interest that the facilities remain available after this is resolved.

    It's very difficult, it's financial hardship for loads of families, especially those in businesses like retail or hospitality where they have had to close. Bills still coming in, and no income to pay for it. How to pay staff, and now they have kids at home too and a creche bill.

    Let's see what supports are available and hopefully this doesn't last for months on end.


  • #66
    Spook_ie
    Registered Users Posts: 10,896 ✭✭✭✭Spook_ie


    too lazy to read the whole thread but IMO

    IF you are paying the creche in full for the shut down, then the creche should not be laying off or putting on reduced pay their workers.


    If I found out that a creche I was using was expecting me to pay them in full and were then letting staff go, and the staff were then (presumably) going to the welfare office to claim they were off work should be villified as much (if not more ) than the Temple Bar pubs


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  • #67
    Daz_
    Registered Users Posts: 930 ✭✭✭Daz_


    pwurple wrote: »
    I know... but from the Creche's perspective, they are unable to offer that support parents either. They can't just take out a loan to pay all their own overheads and unilaterally drop the fees. They would just go straight out of business and have to close. They all have mortgages, bills, food etc too. It's in everyone's interest that the facilities remain available after this is resolved.

    It's very difficult, it's financial hardship for loads of families, especially those in businesses like retail or hospitality where they have had to close. Bills still coming in, and no income to pay for it. How to pay staff, and now they have kids at home too and a creche bill.

    Let's see what supports are available and hopefully this doesn't last for months on end.

    Not true. They wouldn’t immediately go out of business . Large part of their income is government subsidy and that is still coming in . Crèches have managed this view that they are barely able to stay in business , that’s just not true , most make a very good profit . Hence why many open multiple premises .
    My priority is my family so no way we can pay full fees . Very soon we aren’t going to be getting paid a wage .
    I have said this already but I would say it’s only people in public sector can even consider paying full fees as they will get full pay as normal .
    We are going to pay a reduced fee for now and see how it goes from there .

    I can’t afford to be worrying about some business owner when we have our own mortgage and repayments to deal with .


  • #68
    Bikerman2019
    Closed Accounts Posts: 992 ✭✭✭Bikerman2019


    Sleeper12 wrote: »
    If let's say the building burned down you'd usually lay off your staff and rehire them again when rebuilt. I've never heard of the insurance paying for the staff wages for the six months or years for a rebuild.


    Small world creche did exactly that when the creche burnt down and was eventually relocated to the grounds of Tallaght Hospital.


  • #69
    m5ex9oqjawdg2i
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,221 ✭✭✭✭m5ex9oqjawdg2i


    Minier81 wrote: »
    Job losses is exactly why I am happy to pay my creche. I don't want the staff there to lose their jobs because they can't afford to keep them.

    I am on the fence about this one really. Their jobs are not my responsibility, the creche owner is the one who should take the hit, and we all know that's just not going to happen. You are paying a ton of money for a service that you are not receiving. I don't think it's fair for the creche to charge full price. I think it would be fair for all if there's a reduced fee for the time the kids are at home.

    Are parents expected to pay private child minders on top of this or maybe not work at all?

    I'm fortunate enough that both our companies are somewhat understanding and we can both work from home. We will work before and after our core hours to make up for lost time. We are waiting to hear back from our creche and what they plan on doing. At the very least I don't expect to pay for lunches which is a separate charge.

    In Germany we are only paying 540 per month for 10 hours per day for one child. A fraction of what some of you guys are paying in Ireland. There might be some help from the Government here, which would be great. We also don't want to see our child minders being let go, but I doubt that's going to happen either. They need a minimum amount of minders per child.


  • #70
    Toastytoes
    Registered Users Posts: 435 ✭✭Toastytoes


    pwurple wrote: »
    I know... but from the Creche's perspective, they are unable to offer that support parents either. They can't just take out a loan to pay all their own overheads and unilaterally drop the fees. They would just go straight out of business and have to close. They all have mortgages, bills, food etc too. It's in everyone's interest that the facilities remain available after this is resolved.

    It's very difficult, it's financial hardship for loads of families, especially those in businesses like retail or hospitality where they have had to close. Bills still coming in, and no income to pay for it. How to pay staff, and now they have kids at home too and a creche bill.

    Let's see what supports are available and hopefully this doesn't last for months on end.

    There have been a number of initiatives to help businesses which have had to close or face reduced business levels for the Revenue and the Government. Crèches are a business, they are not there out of the goodness of their hearts, businesses shouldn’t be expecting to be receiving full fees during these completely unprecedented times from parents who may have no income themselves. At the end of the day the crèche are not providing the service and parents are having to make alternative arrangements, for some that’s paying another minder, for others it’s unpaid leave.

    It’s mind blowing to hear that on one hand businesses are going bust and shutting down and all the lip service and support they are getting and on the other parents are being asked to potentially start paying twice for childcare, once to the crèche and again to actually have their child minded. As if we’re millionaire cash cows that can be continuously milked and we’re somehow immune to the effects of this situation that others are struggling with.

    What other sector is expecting people to continue paying fees at this time for zero service?

    Crèche’s are businesses and should have contingency plans and working capital, at least for a certain period, like any business. We all know they are still receiving the government subsidies that they normally would so it’s not like the have no income.


  • #71
    sooty1
    Registered Users Posts: 124 ✭✭sooty1


    The E305 payment is ONLY if you have the Virus


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  • #72
    Toastytoes
    Registered Users Posts: 435 ✭✭Toastytoes


    sooty1 wrote: »
    The E305 payment is ONLY if you have the Virus

    You know that’s not the only thing that has been announced don’t you?


  • #73
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,331 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Toastytoes wrote: »
    There have been a number of initiatives to help businesses which have had to close or face reduced business levels for the Revenue and the Government. Crèches are a business, they are not there out of the goodness of their hearts, businesses shouldn’t be expecting to be receiving full fees during these completely unprecedented times from parents who may have no income themselves. At the end of the day the crèche are not providing the service and parents are having to make alternative arrangements, for some that’s paying another minder, for others it’s unpaid leave.

    It’s mind blowing to hear that on one hand businesses are going bust and shutting down and all the lip service and support they are getting and on the other parents are being asked to potentially start paying twice for childcare, once to the crèche and again to actually have their child minded. As if we’re millionaire cash cows that can be continuously milked and we’re somehow immune to the effects of this situation that others are struggling with.

    What other sector is expecting people to continue paying fees at this time for zero service?

    Crèche’s are businesses and should have contingency plans and working capital, at least for a certain period, like any business. We all know they are still receiving the government subsidies that they normally would so it’s not like the have no income.
    Childcare is a fairly unique sector in fairness.

    It is very highly regulated, and there was already huge strain on the system. This crisis will likely be the end of many creches, and the parents of children in those creches are going to suddenly find they have no childcare available to them when it's time for everyone to try get back to normality.


  • #74
    Toastytoes
    Registered Users Posts: 435 ✭✭Toastytoes


    awec wrote: »
    Childcare is a fairly unique sector in fairness.

    It is very highly regulated, and there was already huge strain on the system. This crisis will likely be the end of many creches, and the parents of children in those creches are going to suddenly find they have no childcare available to them when it's time for everyone to try get back to normality.


    Parents shouldn’t be expected to have all these answers though, currently the answer seems to be to run parents into the ground. Our crèche is not even engaging, straight up you have no choice but keep paying full fees.


  • #75
    starbaby2003
    Registered Users Posts: 664 ✭✭✭starbaby2003


    Toastytoes wrote: »
    Parents shouldn’t be expected to have all these answers though, currently the answer seems to be to run parents into the ground. Our crèche is not even engaging, straight up you have no choice but keep paying full fees.

    I honestly think the government need to step in here. This will be going on until at least the end of the Easter holidays. Why should crèches be making massive profits on the back of an epidemic.


  • #76
    1874
    Registered Users Posts: 2,382 ✭✭✭1874


    Toastytoes wrote: »
    Parents shouldn’t be expected to have all these answers though, currently the answer seems to be to run parents into the ground. Our crèche is not even engaging, straight up you have no choice but keep paying full fees.


    Is it time to start naming and shaming, its not a lie so I dont see why anyone could complain or have it removed?
    There is no great option for parents to communicate and I know there will always be some that say they have no problem with it, but for how long? if they have that view now?
    Im in west Dublin, on verge of naming and shaming


  • #77
    bren2002
    Registered Users Posts: 1,198 ✭✭✭bren2002


    Libel isn't about whether somethign is true or not, it's about whether or not you can prove it


  • #78
    rdwight
    Registered Users Posts: 527 ✭✭✭rdwight


    iwillhtfu wrote: »
    I've paid creche for the entire month of March and told by a staff member yesterday they're not getting paid during the closure. :rolleyes:

    TitianGerm wrote: »
    Of four creches I deal with

    One lady is paying her staff for two weeks and not charging parents anything to keep spaces open.

    One lady is making up the difference between her employees normal weekly wage and the social welfare payment. Also not charging parents anything to keep spaces open.

    One lady is not paying staff anything for the two weeks. Not sure about charging parents.

    One lady is not paying staff and is charging parents full fees.

    All owners have said they will still be receiving their payments from the Government.

    .

    If true, these are genuine cases for naming and shaming.


  • #79
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 8,856 ✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    WhatsApp how many parents you can- tell them you’re not paying. Encourage others not to pay- make a stand.


  • #80
    Toastytoes
    Registered Users Posts: 435 ✭✭Toastytoes


    bren2002 wrote: »
    Libel isn't about whether somethign is true or not, it's about whether or not you can prove it

    Well I have the emails so I can definitely prove my crèche have told us to pay up.


  • #81
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 8,856 ✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    starbaby2003 wrote: »
    I honestly think the government need to step in here. This will be going on until at least the end of the Easter holidays. Why should crèches be making massive profits on the back of an epidemic.

    Or be singled out for special treatment. Pubs will open when crèches re open when barbers reopen - in other words, they’re all in it together. I don’t see pubs asking us to pay them for being closed.


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  • #82
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 8,856 ✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    Toastytoes wrote: »
    Well I have the emails so I can definitely prove my crèche have told us to pay up.

    They can temporarily lay-off people and reemploy them again- just like all the other retail have to. Don’t pay.


  • #83
    ax530
    Registered Users Posts: 457 ✭✭ax530


    I had arranged a babysitter to come to mind kids while crèche/after school closed and I'm WFH however she has family who are health care workers so I'm wondering if I should cancel her?


  • #84
    1874
    Registered Users Posts: 2,382 ✭✭✭1874


    bren2002 wrote: »
    Libel isn't about whether somethign is true or not, it's about whether or not you can prove it


    Well they outright state they dont offer reductions, Ive emails from this about the same thing before and they are not offerring/they expect tobe paid, aside from the fact Ive been told this directly by them, are they likely to sue for libel knowing its true and knowing everything points to it.

    Deleted User wrote: »
    They can temporarily lay-off people and reemploy them again- just like all the other retail have to. Don’t pay.


    The problem is, most have already paid upfront, and there is a threat of losing your childs place, very poor behaviour IMO,
    If this goes on another month, I wont be paying next months fees, it will have to go towards a childminder.


  • #85
    El Gato De Negocios
    Registered Users Posts: 6,602 ✭✭✭El Gato De Negocios


    Got an email from our creche today. They are giving us back 10 days credit for the 2 weeks in march they will be closed, the credit will be deducted from our monthly bill over the next 6 months. Really really impressed with them, honestly didn't expect anything back for this month from them. They will send further communication near the end of the month relating to April and depending on how things go.


  • #86
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,331 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Or be singled out for special treatment. Pubs will open when crèches re open when barbers reopen - in other words, they’re all in it together. I don’t see pubs asking us to pay them for being closed.

    This is a bad comparison. You can't compare the childcare sector to pubs. People don't pay money to have a spot in a pub. If people can't go to the pub, no big deal, if people can't get childcare then they can't work. It's apples and oranges.
    Deleted User wrote: »
    They can temporarily lay-off people and reemploy them again- just like all the other retail have to. Don’t pay.

    It's not like other retail in fairness, they can't hire just anyone. There is already a real shortage of staff in childcare, which is a large part of why there's such a squeeze on places.

    Many of them will be let go in the coming months, and many of them won't be coming back into the sector.

    Of course, as someone said before I'll only pay the fees once I'm happy the staff are being paid. If it's prolonged, I expect them to make adjustments, but for now I'll pay up for next month no problem, because the alternative is far, far worse for us.


  • #87
    Speak Now
    Registered Users Posts: 8,504 ✭✭✭Speak Now


    Our Creche sent a message on the day of the shutdown saying no fees for the next 2 weeks.


  • #88
    Daz_
    Registered Users Posts: 930 ✭✭✭Daz_


    Speak Now wrote: »
    Our Creche sent a message on the day of the shutdown saying no fees for the next 2 weeks.

    Proper order


  • #89
    Daz_
    Registered Users Posts: 930 ✭✭✭Daz_


    awec wrote: »
    This is a bad comparison. You can't compare the childcare sector to pubs. People don't pay money to have a spot in a pub. If people can't go to the pub, no big deal, if people can't get childcare then they can't work. It's apples and oranges.



    It's not like other retail in fairness, they can't hire just anyone. There is already a real shortage of staff in childcare, which is a large part of why there's such a squeeze on places.

    Many of them will be let go in the coming months, and many of them won't be coming back into the sector.

    Of course, as someone said before I'll only pay the fees once I'm happy the staff are being paid. If it's prolonged, I expect them to make adjustments, but for now I'll pay up for next month no problem, because the alternative is far, far worse for us.

    What’s your basis for saying many won’t come back into the sector ? We are going it be in recession in a few months - id wager they will be damn glad to come back to a childcare position .


  • #90
    dubrov
    Registered Users Posts: 3,541 ✭✭✭dubrov


    awec wrote: »
    This is a bad comparison. You can't compare the childcare sector to pubs. People don't pay money to have a spot in a pub. If people can't go to the pub, no big deal, if people can't get childcare then they can't work. It's apples and oranges.

    In fairness there are loads of examples where people pay money for a spot and won't get charged if the service isn't provided. Think gyms, ballet classes, tennis coaching, five-a-side football.

    I can't think of one example the other way.

    Creches get away with it as there are limited places in a lot of areas and no one wants to move their kids unless they have to.


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  • #91
    Spleerbun
    Registered Users Posts: 262 ✭✭Spleerbun


    My local crèche is paying staff for next two weeks at least anyway while closed, and after that will be reassessed again.

    At times like this people have a tendency to only see things from their own point of view, and not realise many are often affected worse than them. Decisions like this aren't always black and white


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