Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Hi all,
Vanilla are planning an update to the site on April 24th (next Wednesday). It is a major PHP8 update which is expected to boost performance across the site. The site will be down from 7pm and it is expected to take about an hour to complete. We appreciate your patience during the update.
Thanks all.

e-scooters to become legal in Germany

13567

Comments

  • #62
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,453 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Thanks for the link but it does not really remove the grey area, it's all well and good until you end up in court and some Barrister discovers some law that makes them illegal and you end up paying a tonne of money to someone.

    I think you misunderstood me there at the beginning of your quote, I said that they "are not" illegal to buy or sell.

    ROFLOL, talk about some extreme back pedalling their now :D

    So you have gone from saying that they are definitely illegal just a few posts ago:
    Deleted User wrote:
    These scooters are all illegal in Ireland because if they have no pedelec system and if the motor engages while no pedals are being turned or by using a throttle and are over 250 watts of power then they are illegal and can not be used on public streets and footpaths as they are classed as motor vehicles/mopeheads.

    To now admitting that it isn't so clear, that it is a grey area, that their is no case law for it yet. In other words exactly what I've been saying all along. Thanks

    Though having researched it further and having seen the response from the Gardai, I'm now gone from saying it is a grey area to it actually being quiet clear that the push to start ones aren't MPV's and aren't covered by legislation at all.

    It is very clear to me now that if the government want to restrict them or have Gardai seize them, they will have to update the Road Traffic Act to specifically include them, just like they had to amend it to include EV's and Electric Assistance bikes.


  • #63
    sharper
    Registered Users Posts: 1,216 ✭✭✭sharper


    bk wrote: »
    To now admitting that it isn't so clear, that it is a grey area, that their is no case law for it yet. In other words exactly what I've been saying all along. Thanks

    I think where some confusion might come in is the concept of something being street legal versus being banned or illegal.

    For example look at this e-bike https://www.greenaer.ie/product/stromer-st3-5/

    It has an 820w motor and a top speed of 45km/h. That's definitely outside of the range for riding a bike without license/tax/insurance.

    It's not illegal to own one though or to to sell it, you just can't use it on the public roads. Whether retailers are clear on this I don't know.


  • #64
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    bk wrote: »
    ROFLOL, talk about some extreme back pedalling their now :D

    So you have gone from saying that they are definitely illegal just a few posts ago:



    To now admitting that it isn't so clear, that it is a grey area, that their is no case law for it yet. In other words exactly what I've been saying all along. Thanks

    Though having researched it further and having seen the response from the Gardai, I'm now gone from saying it is a grey area to it actually being quiet clear that the push to start ones aren't MPV's and aren't covered by legislation at all.

    It is very clear to me now that if the government want to restrict them or have Gardai seize them, they will have to update the Road Traffic Act to specifically include them, just like they had to amend it to include EV's and Electric Assistance bikes.

    I didn't read that link before so 1 up for BK ;)

    It's nuts the whole think, ebikes are limited to 25 Km/h ,250 watts and these are allowed on the road with probably the same bloody limit and ebikes are restricted to pedal only.

    You couldn't make this sh1t up.


  • #65
    sharper
    Registered Users Posts: 1,216 ✭✭✭sharper


    Deleted User wrote: »
    It's nuts the whole think, ebikes are limited to 25 Km/h ,250 watts and these are allowed on the road with probably the same bloody limit and ebikes are restricted to pedal only.

    Well technically it's just that the motor assist cuts out at 25km/h, if you can peddle it faster than that you can...

    The speed limit makes sense to me but the motor limit doesn't. If you were on hilly terrain then you'd really feel that limit.

    I really feel like e-bikes represent the best and cheapest opportunity to revolutionise how people travel. They're far cheaper to buy and also offer people an opportunity to exercise. They greatly expand the range at which people could consider cycling to work (or anywhere else).

    For me personally I don't want to have to cycle on the road in places like the N4 with cars/buses zipping past. If there was a proper segregated route I'd start using it tomorrow.


  • #66
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    sharper wrote: »
    Well technically it's just that the motor assist cuts out at 25km/h, if you can peddle it faster than that you can...

    The speed limit makes sense to me but the motor limit doesn't. If you were on hilly terrain then you'd really feel that limit.

    I really feel like e-bikes represent the best and cheapest opportunity to revolutionise how people travel. They're far cheaper to buy and also offer people an opportunity to exercise. They greatly expand the range at which people could consider cycling to work (or anywhere else).

    For me personally I don't want to have to cycle on the road in places like the N4 with cars/buses zipping past. If there was a proper segregated route I'd start using it tomorrow.

    Yes the limit at which the motor cuts power is ridiculous, it should be 45 Km/h.

    Bosch and Yamaha are more like 500-700 watts. They get around it by limiting speed and acceleration so they get their type approval which doesn't measure wattage.


  • Advertisement
  • #67
    sharper
    Registered Users Posts: 1,216 ✭✭✭sharper


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Yes the limit at which the motor cuts power is ridiculous, it should be 45 Km/h.

    Bosch and Yamaha are more like 500-700 watts. They get around it by limiting speed and acceleration so they get their type approval which doesn't measure wattage.

    A higher speed limit would certainly make e-bikes even more useful for commuters, my own trip would be 25km each way so the extra speed and power would be welcome.

    I can also see how that would be a safety concern.

    Overall I think governments focus too much on electric cars when smaller vehicles make a lot more sense. Even if some type of license is needed it might well be worthwhile.

    Anything at all to get people out of cars. With public transport also at capacity in many areas getting people out of that also has benefits!

    I think e-scooters make the most sense for people that would otherwise have to walk quite a bit to get to public transport. Even fold up bikes take a lot of space but scooters can more easily be accommodated on buses and trains.


  • #68
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,278 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    45km/h is a nuts suggestion. just get a motorbike if that's the speed you want to commute at.
    as mentioned above, e-bikes are not limited. their motors are, but as a *bike* they're not.


  • #69
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,249 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    Eric Cartman wrote: »
    why does having to wear a helmet massively decrease the number of cyclists though, its not like helmets are expensive ?

    Girls don’t want hat hair. It also implies that cycling is inherently dangerous.

    What are your thoughts on making drivers wear neck braces to remove whiplash etc. ?


  • #70
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,278 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    there's often a comparison with seatbelts and helmets. seatbelts are built into cars and are stored in them.
    there's no concept of 'not being able to drive because you forgot to bring your seatbelt with you'.


  • #71
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    magicbastarder wrote: »
    45km/h is a nuts suggestion. just get a motorbike if that's the speed you want to commute at.
    as mentioned above, e-bikes are not limited. their motors are, but as a *bike* they're not.

    You're wrong, 45 km/r is perfect max for a bicycle, after experience at 80 Km/h on my ebike diy projects I can tell you 45 Km/r is a perfect Max on a bicycle and actually 50 Km/h would be better.28 mph is fine but the extra top speed should be allowed given that you'd most likely be among higher speed traffic and that is the limit in town anyway.

    That does not mean the rider should ride at those speeds all the time no more than a driver should drive 200 Km/h all the time. It's just common sense.

    The 25 Km/h cut off on a heavier bike means it's a lot harder to maintain a higher speed without assistance.

    However, that being said, it's always a good idea to get an S-pedelec and have insurance, the extra speed is definitely a lot more useful for commuting and the insurance as horrid as that sounds for cyclists won't cost the earth and it's a hell of a lot cheaper than owning a car.

    We should be encouraging a lot more people out of cars and a more useful top speed could convince a lot more people to change however anyone with a license can ride any S-Pedelec and have a lot more advantages, sure, you can't cycle in cycle lanes with a S-pedelec but our cycle lanes are pure dirt anyway and mostly bus lanes and a lot of cyclists refuse to use the few dedicated cycles we have anyway so the benefits of S-pedelics greatly out weigh the negatives in my opinion of course, certainly if I lived in Dublin and was up to 10-12 Km from work this is exactly what I would be doing.

    What's more bizarre is that a scooter can have a throttle but a bicyle can not , it's just madness.


  • Advertisement
  • #72
    sharper
    Registered Users Posts: 1,216 ✭✭✭sharper


    magicbastarder wrote: »
    45km/h is a nuts suggestion. just get a motorbike if that's the speed you want to commute at.
    as mentioned above, e-bikes are not limited. their motors are, but as a *bike* they're not.

    There are parts of the road where motorcycles, buses and bicycles (Edit: And for no reason at all, taxis!) all share the same lane. In those sections 45m/h would make sense to me.

    Unlike a motorbike a high spec e-bike could be used in regular bike only lanes as well if the speed limit was observed.

    Realistically you'd be into the realm of needing some sort of license and a decent helmet though. An easier to obtain license for fast e-bikes could be implemented. I don't think any of this is likely, governments everywhere seem to be totally missing the potential here.


  • #73
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    sharper wrote: »
    There are parts of the road where motorcycles, buses and bicycles (Edit: And for no reason at all, taxis!) all share the same lane. In those sections 45m/h would make sense to me.

    Unlike a motorbike a high spec e-bike could be used in regular bike only lanes as well if the speed limit was observed.

    Realistically you'd be into the realm of needing some sort of license and a decent helmet though. An easier to obtain license for fast e-bikes could be implemented. I don't think any of this is likely, governments everywhere seem to be totally missing the potential here.

    The Government are nor missing the potential at all, cars bring in Billions in revenue so it's in the Governments best interest to keep this gravy train running.

    But back to faster ebikes, there is nothing to stop anyone with a license already getting an s-pedelec and they will pay a lot less insurance also , in fact this is the only version of ebike I would suggest anyone to get , insurance is always good anyway.


  • #74
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,249 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    The Government are nor missing the potential at all, cars bring in Billions in revenue so it's in the Governments best interest to keep this gravy train running.

    Not quite the gravy train you think it is.
    Infrastructure costs , obesity , heart and lung problems, accidents, policing all cost the state money.

    Only a fraction of the money spent on cars stay in the state , we don’t produce cars and slit if the financing is done by foreign banks.


  • #75
    Teddy Daniels
    Closed Accounts Posts: 445 ✭✭Teddy Daniels


    Deleted User wrote: »
    These scooters are all illegal in Ireland because if they have no pedelec system and if the motor engages while no pedals are being turned or by using a throttle and are over 250 watts of power then they are illegal and can not be used on public streets and footpaths as they are classed as motor vehicles/mopeheads.

    God help anyone if they hit someone with one of these scooters as they will have some compensation and legal bills to pay and possibly a criminal conviction for knowingly using a illegally powered motor vehicle without insurance and or license and ignorance of the Law is no exception. You buy it it's your job to know the legalities.

    The same goes for hoverboards etc are all illegal in public in Ireland.

    It is not illegal to buy or sell them yet that I am aware.
    You seem to know your stuff so what’s the story with the four wheelers that old people and fat people use. They are used on the path and on the road and are completely throttle controlled.


  • #76
    Teddy Daniels
    Closed Accounts Posts: 445 ✭✭Teddy Daniels


    sharper wrote: »
    There are parts of the road where motorcycles, buses and bicycles (Edit: And for no reason at all, taxis!) all share the same lane. In those sections 45m/h would make sense to me.

    Unlike a motorbike a high spec e-bike could be used in regular bike only lanes as well if the speed limit was observed.

    Realistically you'd be into the realm of needing some sort of license and a decent helmet though. An easier to obtain license for fast e-bikes could be implemented. I don't think any of this is likely, governments everywhere seem to be totally missing the potential here.

    What part of the road do you mean?


  • #77
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    bk wrote: »
    ... clear that the push to start ones aren't MPV's and aren't covered by legislation at all... .

    I always find this a weird logic.

    This basically implies if I build some weird homemade vehicle that doesn't fall under any current classification it somehow is ok to use on the road. That makes zero sense to me.

    Also saying something is grey area is just a euphemism for it's not legal. And because you push to start something means nothing. You will not find push to start in the legislation.

    There are scooters that need constant physical movement from the rider to keep moving. You could make an argument for those. Those that don't no. Most of them have a cruise control for Pete's sake.

    That said I assume they will be legalised similarly to eBikes. With similar limitations. At least initially.

    They are brilliant, if used sensibly.


  • #78
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,278 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    sharper wrote: »
    There are parts of the road where motorcycles, buses and bicycles (Edit: And for no reason at all, taxis!) all share the same lane. In those sections 45m/h would make sense to me.

    Unlike a motorbike a high spec e-bike could be used in regular bike only lanes as well if the speed limit was observed.
    the notion of an e-bike being 'rider assisted' goes out the window with the concept of an e-bike where the motor assists up to 45km/h - at that stage, the pedalling of the cyclist is just cynical window dressing, it's an electric motorbike with pedals.

    a normal cyclist, to maintain 45km/h on the flat, with no wind, needs to put out over 250W simply to deal with air resistance. on my 20km cycle to work the other morning, strava estimated i was putting out an average of 136W, and i'm reasonably fit.

    why not just get one of these?
    https://elettrica.vespa.com/en/


  • #79
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,249 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    While we are on it:

    https://ecf.com/news-and-events/news/european-parliament-officially-takes-its-position-exclude-pedelecs-mandatory


  • #80
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    magicbastarder wrote: »
    the notion of an e-bike being 'rider assisted' goes out the window with the concept of an e-bike where the motor assists up to 45km/h - at that stage, the pedalling of the cyclist is just cynical window dressing, it's an electric motorbike with pedals.

    a normal cyclist, to maintain 45km/h on the flat, with no wind, needs to put out over 250W simply to deal with air resistance. on my 20km cycle to work the other morning, strava estimated i was putting out an average of 136W, and i'm reasonably fit.

    why not just get one of these?
    https://elettrica.vespa.com/en/

    Because people might want to actually get some exercise , ebikes like the Bosch bikes do not allow you to simply pretend you are peddling , they have torque sensors and the more assistance you give the more power assist power you get.

    And at 45 Km/h you will still need to put in a lot of effort.

    People are thinking about wattage of these bikes, yes they give good assistance but you still have to put in a lot of effort because without this effort the motor will give you a lot less power.

    The S-pedelecs are classed as 350 watts but as with the 250 watt bikes they are running at least twice this and more.


  • #81
    Eric Cartman
    Registered Users Posts: 26,283 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    ted1 wrote: »
    Girls don’t want hat hair. It also implies that cycling is inherently dangerous.

    What are your thoughts on making drivers wear neck braces to remove whiplash etc. ?

    so its because of a fashion choice, so is cycling inherently safe then , the same people who constantly complain that cycling in dublin is dangerous are the most against having to wear a helmet,

    its not down to the neck brace thing. An RSA survey a few years ago found that 35% of women under 30 don't wear seatbelts, 28% of women accross all ages , the biggest factors were not ruining tan / clothes or comfort reasons , yet we still mandate people wear seatbelts because they do save lives, like helmets do, its what theyre there for.

    Being a cyclist isnt cool or attractive anyway, adding a life saving helmet atleast means people don't assume you lack basic safety awareness too.


  • Advertisement
  • #82
    Cookie_Monster
    Registered Users Posts: 24,469 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    Eric Cartman wrote: »
    Being a cyclist isnt cool or attractive anyway, adding a life saving helmet atleast means people don't assume you lack basic safety awareness too.
    of course it is :cool:


  • #83
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,278 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    Eric Cartman wrote: »
    we still mandate people wear seatbelts because they do save lives, like helmets do, its what theyre there for.
    as ben goldacre would say, i think you'll find it's more complicated than that.

    it's safer to wear a helmet, in the event that you assume that the impact with your head has already happened.
    if you make helmets mandatory, you will drive down the number of deaths of cyclists, but the primary factor will be because there will be fewer people cycling, not that helmets are a magic bullet.
    and you'll be making life more dangerous, not less, for the people who choose to continue cycling.
    and for the people who discontinue cycling - cycling has a benefit to risk ratio of anywhere between 11 to 1 and 70 to 1, depending on which study you read; so the people who discontinue cycling will see a far greater negative impact to their health from not cycling than they would from the 'risks' of continuing to cycle.


  • #84
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,249 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    Eric Cartman wrote: »
    so its because of a fashion choice, so is cycling inherently safe then , the same people who constantly complain that cycling in dublin is dangerous are the most against having to wear a helmet,

    its not down to the neck brace thing. An RSA survey a few years ago found that 35% of women under 30 don't wear seatbelts, 28% of women accross all ages , the biggest factors were not ruining tan / clothes or comfort reasons , yet we still mandate people wear seatbelts because they do save lives, like helmets do, its what theyre there for.

    Being a cyclist isnt cool or attractive anyway, adding a life saving helmet atleast means people don't assume you lack basic safety awareness too.

    Yes , cycling is safe.
    Drivers suffering whiplash costs millions each year.

    In all the cycling deaths that occurred , helmets wouldn’t have helped


  • #85
    prinzeugen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,891 ✭✭✭prinzeugen


    bk wrote: »
    Really, then how can you buy them at Three.ie stores?

    https://www.three.ie/brand/xiaomi/

    Scroll down, under Eco Products.

    It would seem that the Gardai Press office have clarified that ones that you have to push off to start aren't classified as MPV's and are fine:

    https://goosed.ie/electric-scooters-and-the-law-in-ireland/



    That would all explain why so many of them have appeared on our streets and why the Gardai have taken no action. So it turns out it wasn't so black and white after all.

    I still think they should be legislated for, similar to Germany, to remove all this silly uncertainty.

    I know a Traffic Garda and apparently the guidance they have been given is that if the motor/engine is capable of propelling the scooter AT ANY POINT with out human effort or gravity, its a MPV. The method of starting (pushing off etc) does not matter.

    They also said that they are hard to spot usually as they look like normal scooters. The give away is when they are zooming uphill with no effort from the person on them. Then its a u-turn and blue lights job.

    They are not illegal to sell or own as they can be used on private ground.


  • #86
    prinzeugen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,891 ✭✭✭prinzeugen


    Teddy Daniels wrote: »
    You seem to know your stuff so what’s the story with the four wheelers that old people and fat people use. They are used on the path and on the road and are completely throttle controlled.

    They are classed as medical mobility aids (or something like that) so are not classed as vehicles.
    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    But back to faster ebikes, there is nothing to stop anyone with a license already getting an s-pedelec and they will pay a lot less insurance also , in fact this is the only version of ebike I would suggest anyone to get , insurance is always good anyway.

    Having a licence would make no difference. The bike would still need to be registered, taxed etc.


  • #87
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    prinzeugen wrote: »

    Having a licence would make no difference. The bike would still need to be registered, taxed etc.

    I thought that was rather obvious lol maybe not.

    Still it makes the bike a lot more practical, helps keep up with faster flowing traffic and is almost as fast as the town limit of 50 Km/h.

    S-pedelecs also mean the rider will still put effort into cycling because the bikes gearing will allow your cadence to keep up with the motor and the motor won't provide decent power unless the rider puts in decent effort this is the way the likes of the Bosch, Yamaha ebikes work with their torque sensors.

    + If there's an accident and it's the riders fault they are covered with insurance.

    It's a no brainer if someone is already a car owner looking for an alternative form of transport, the faster 45 Km/h would make a big difference to anyone really.


  • #88
    Eric Cartman
    Registered Users Posts: 26,283 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    magicbastarder wrote: »
    as ben goldacre would say, i think you'll find it's more complicated than that.

    it's safer to wear a helmet, in the event that you assume that the impact with your head has already happened.
    if you make helmets mandatory, you will drive down the number of deaths of cyclists, but the primary factor will be because there will be fewer people cycling, not that helmets are a magic bullet.
    and you'll be making life more dangerous, not less, for the people who choose to continue cycling.
    and for the people who discontinue cycling - cycling has a benefit to risk ratio of anywhere between 11 to 1 and 70 to 1, depending on which study you read; so the people who discontinue cycling will see a far greater negative impact to their health from not cycling than they would from the 'risks' of continuing to cycle.

    but the argument is that a helmet being unattractive would put enough people off cycling in order to make it dangerous, what does that say about how secure cyclists are in their mode of transport if they won't even wear a helmet to protect themselves.


  • #89
    Cookie_Monster
    Registered Users Posts: 24,469 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    Eric Cartman wrote: »
    but the argument is that a helmet being unattractive would put enough people off cycling in order to make it dangerous, what does that say about how secure cyclists are in their mode of transport if they won't even wear a helmet to protect themselves.

    dunno, why don't you go and ask the hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of Dutch people who seem to manage it on a daily basis?

    Could it simply be that its just superfluous?


  • #90
    StereoSound
    Registered Users Posts: 2,155 ✭✭✭StereoSound


    Should Three ireland be selling these things if they are illegal? I want to buy one but don't want to end up having it confiscated and potentially hauled to court for no insurance and tax either... This is the answer to no driving and waiting for buses in Dublin...I sweat like a pig when I cycle and it doesn't help at all arriving at work like I took a swim in Mount Olympia in my clothes.


  • Advertisement
  • #91
    Paradicia
    Registered Users Posts: 40 ✭Paradicia


    Eric Cartman wrote: »
    so its because of a fashion choice, so is cycling inherently safe then , the same people who constantly complain that cycling in dublin is dangerous are the most against having to wear a helmet,

    its not down to the neck brace thing. An RSA survey a few years ago found that 35% of women under 30 don't wear seatbelts, 28% of women accross all ages , the biggest factors were not ruining tan / clothes or comfort reasons , yet we still mandate people wear seatbelts because they do save lives, like helmets do, its what theyre there for.

    Being a cyclist isnt cool or attractive anyway, adding a life saving helmet atleast means people don't assume you lack basic safety awareness too.

    Says the guy who probably wouldn't be able to push a pair pedals for 5 minutes :D


Advertisement