Social Housing Areas - Dublin Councils

Amirani · 13-06-2019 9:21pm

klaaaz wrote: »

Really? Education is far from free in this country. Lower income students do not tend to go to private secondary schools as they cannot afford the fees, hence affluent students tend to get that advantage of wealth to get a better university education. Finland does not have that many private schools, the vast majority of students attend state schools. Equal opportunity for all.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/affluent-students-14-times-more-likely-to-go-to-university-than-disadvantaged-peers-1.3718777?fbclid=IwAR1BDd_C4UBTrCFfF_-EW895kOp70LEch6Nzkll3Qx_taA-0gLH-CmaHFxI

Private schools make no significant difference educationally in Ireland, teachers are the same. More than half of my college class in a 570 point course in Trinity went to public schools, myself included.

It's not like the UK.

Donald Trump · 13-06-2019 10:24pm

Amirani wrote: »

Private schools make no significant difference educationally in Ireland, teachers are the same. More than half of my college class in a 570 point course in Trinity went to public schools, myself included.

It's not like the UK.

I'd imagine though that the main advantage would probably be being surrounded by an atmosphere and an assumption that heading to college is the automatic step. So the people drifting along end up at some college rather than looking for a job down the local Texco. That and the fact that the "top class" at a private school are probably all dedicated with few messers wasting teachers time. But getting the seats on those courses is not beyond the reach of someone just because they didn't go to a fancy school

+1 for getting it in and highlighting that you did a 570 point course in Trinners

klaaaz · 14-06-2019 9:48am

Amirani wrote: »

Private schools make no significant difference educationally in Ireland, teachers are the same. More than half of my college class in a 570 point course in Trinity went to public schools, myself included.

It's not like the UK.

No-one in my class in the public school got into Trinity unlike those in private schools who have a much greater chance.

is_that_so · 14-06-2019 9:50am

klaaaz wrote: »

No-one in my class in the public school got into Trinity unlike those in private schools who have a much greater chance.

I had an option to go there from a public school and other members of the family went or are there. I put it down to being good enough.

abcabc123123 · 14-06-2019 9:52am

klaaaz wrote: »

No-one in my class in the public school got into Trinity unlike those in private schools who have a much greater chance.

Private schools account for 20-25% of admissions to Trinity which is way over representative of their numbers in schooling overall. Private schools have higher college admission rates than public schools on average.

klaaaz · 14-06-2019 10:18am

is_that_so wrote: »

I had an option to go there from a public school and other members of the family went or are there. I put it down to being good enough.

Haha, some of my class did go to third level just not Trinity. Another factor is that affording grinds does help for those who have money to get to third level.

voluntary · 14-06-2019 12:23pm

abcabc123123 wrote: »

Private schools account for 20-25% of admissions to Trinity which is way over representative of their numbers in schooling overall. Private schools have higher college admission rates than public schools on average.

Right, but the kids sent to private schools have specific backgrounds, educated parents etc. It's very likely they'd achieve the same attending public schools.

klaaaz · 14-06-2019 12:49pm

voluntary wrote: »

Right, but the kids sent to private schools have specific backgrounds, educated parents etc. It's very likely they'd achieve the same attending public schools.

So the poor are uneducated?

sportsfan90 · 14-06-2019 12:59pm

klaaaz wrote: »

So the poor are uneducated?

I'm not sure that's what he said klaaaz. But to be fair I don't think it's a stretch to suggest that rich and successful people often tend to be better educated than most.

klaaaz · 14-06-2019 1:06pm

sportsfan90 wrote: »

I'm not sure that's what he said klaaaz. But to be fair I don't think it's a stretch to suggest that rich and successful people often tend to be better educated than most.

Everyone is educated to a degree, some more than others. The poster said "educated parents" and their kids are the only type who have gone to private schools which means in his logic that the majority of the population who attend public schools are uneducated.

Graham · 14-06-2019 1:11pm

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Friendly reminder that this is the Accommodation & Property forum.

General discussions on the socio economic influences on 3rd level education are better suited to other forums.

Graham · 14-06-2019 1:11pm

caff wrote: »

Council budgets are easily raided and cut. A semi state housing body would have dedicated funding with less scope for raising or cutting of maintenance funds.

Would a semi-state housing body impact the national debt?

I understood one of the appeals of housing associations is associated borrowing aren't included in the national debt.

Cal4567 · 14-06-2019 5:18pm

Graham wrote: »

Would a semi-state housing body impact the national debt?

I understood one of the appeals of housing associations is associated borrowing aren't included in the national debt.

They are claasified as public bodies at the moment although they are trying to over turn this.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/construction/housing-association-change-could-add-to-government-debt-1.3334498

The_Conductor · 14-06-2019 5:23pm

Graham wrote: »

Would a semi-state housing body impact the national debt?

I understood one of the appeals of housing associations is associated borrowing aren't included in the national debt.

The reason they were structured in this manner- was to keep their debts off the national balance sheet. The EU Commission (and Eurostat) have refused to accept this explanation- and contrary to the government's wishes- have insisted on including their debts in the calculation of Irish national debt figures.

Unfortunately- akin to NAMA and some other financial wheezes we've come up with- its an exercise in smoke and mirrors- the housing associations- only function because of massive subventions- including tax treatment that isn't available to commercial entities- and breaches the thresholds Eurostat use to determine whether or not a body is a private or a public entity- and thus whether its debts come under the public umbrella- or not.

Idbatterim · 15-06-2019 1:40pm

I just read the below. I dont think the council should be buying private property , they should be developing their own. But if they are to buy it, I think it is totally unacceptable, that one unemployed or working poor person gets it for virtually nothing, while a another working poor person in the apartment block next door, pays potentially up to 50% of their income. These apartments would go for E1900+ for a one bed, up to E2800-2900 for a 3 bed.

If the social housing tenant's paid more in rent, far more housing could be built , far quicker. The current situation is just a total disgrace!

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/homes-and-property/south-dublin-council-targets-luxury-scheme-for-social-housing-1.3926235

<SNIP>

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Please don't re-post entire articles.

laserlad2010 · 15-06-2019 2:08pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

I just read the below. I dont think the council should be buying private property , they should be developing their own. But if they are to buy it, I think it is totally unacceptable, that one unemployed or working poor person gets it for virtually nothing, while a another working poor person in the apartment block next door, pays potentially up to 50% of their income. These apartments would go for E1900+ for a one bed, up to E2800-2900 for a 3 bed.

If the social housing tenant's paid more in rent, far more housing could be built , far quicker. The current situation is just a total disgrace!

Even if you leave the "deserving or not" argument out of it (which we probably should), this is really poor financial decision making IMO. I can understand not wanting to have homogenous areas of social housing, but paying through the nose for an entire complex that is then labelled as a "social housing" complex for ever more... I can't see a REIT or Glenveagh going for this.

I think you could get money to go 30-40% further in areas such as D8 (my postcode), D7 etc rather than choosing this as the hill to die on...

Cal4567 · 15-06-2019 4:28pm

It's also a leasing deal for 25 years. After 25 years the block goes back to Glenveagh. Yet another short term solution where this governement just uses the private sector to meet social needs. Kicking the can down the road again.

Who exactly advises this government when there are so many thousands of acres already in public ownership? They are really in desperate straits and could have avoided this with some element of foresight back in 2011. But, hey, it was social housing, and not really much of a middle class priority. No excuse as a mere look at how the affordability crisis was effecting cities across the developed world should have been a wake up call.

fret_wimp2 · 15-06-2019 4:43pm

laserlad2010 wrote: »

I think you could get money to go 30-40% further in areas such as D8 (my postcode), D7 etc rather than choosing this as the hill to die on...

OK, but now we've come full circle again, to the issues of social housing not being evenly distributed anymore if we avoid anywhere except the cheapest areas, which usually have significant social housing already, a situation that nobody really wants.

Either we want homogenous, even distribution or we want social housing as cheaply as possible.

hmmm · 16-06-2019 12:05pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/homes-and-property/south-dublin-council-targets-luxury-scheme-for-social-housing-1.3926235

Opposite Dundrum shopping centre, right beside two LUAS stations. These are highly desirable apartment blocks facilitating commuters, and in my opinion should only be made available to workers.

If the council wants to help people, buy them and rent them to low-paid workers. But no-one who doesn't have or want a job should be handed one of these.

seasidedub · 16-06-2019 2:22pm

These types of apartment blocks typically have yearly management fees of over 2000e - in the case of social welfare recipients getting them, who pays that fee? That would be close to 200e a month out of social welfare- there's no way they'd pay it out of their welfare so is it absorbed by the other private owners or does the council pay it for them? It must be a kick in the teeth to private owners who struggle and sacrifice but manage to pay mortgages and costs.

dudara · 16-06-2019 2:30pm

seasidedub wrote: »

These types of apartment blocks typically have yearly management fees of over 2000e - in the case of social welfare recipients getting them, who pays that fee? That would be close to 200e a month out of social welfare- there's no way they'd pay it out of their welfare so is it absorbed by the other private owners or does the council pay it for them? It must be a kick in the teeth to private owners who struggle and sacrifice but manage to pay mortgages and costs.

There are a lot of people who need housing assistance these days. It’s not confined to people on social welfare any more. Many working families need a hand now thanks to rising house and rental prices.

In this case, the council had offered to take over running if the apartment block for the duration of the 25 year lease. So they, in effect, would be the management company.

voluntary · 16-06-2019 5:27pm

hmmm wrote: »

If the council wants to help people, buy them and rent them to low-paid workers. But no-one who doesn't have or want a job should be handed one of these.

So the taxpayer should be subsidizing salaries in Dublin?

The_Conductor · 16-06-2019 5:52pm

voluntary wrote: »

So the taxpayer should be subsidizing salaries in Dublin?

The taxpayer is already.
Someone on the average industrial wage (whatever the hell that expression means)- is below the threshold for Family Income Support payments.

Edgware · 16-06-2019 6:54pm

hmmm wrote: »

Opposite Dundrum shopping centre, right beside two LUAS stations. These are highly desirable apartment blocks facilitating commuters, and in my opinion should only be made available to workers.

If the council wants to help people, buy them and rent them to low-paid workers. But no-one who doesn't have or want a job should be handed one of these.

Are they near me Ma?

Fan of Netflix · 16-06-2019 8:04pm

Interesting progress report here from Dun Laoghaire Rathdown Council

The Social Housing Target 2018-2021 for delivery by this Council is 1,563 units

https://www.dlrcoco.ie/sites/default/files/atoms/files/q1_2019_social_housing_progress_report.pdf

There are 4,524 persons on our social housing waiting list as per the Summary of Social Housing Assessments in 2018. In 2017 the figure was 4,749, in 2016 the figure was 4,981 and in 2015 it was 5,693.

https://www.dlrcoco.ie/en/housing/housing-delivery/social-housing-progress-reports

Given the price of property and land in this council area, you would have to question the overall idea of social housing at all there.

fret_wimp2 · 16-06-2019 9:21pm

Fan of Netflix wrote: »

Given the price of property and land in this council area, you would have to question the overall idea of social housing at all there.

But again, as has been highlighted many times in this thread, we have a choice, either distribute social housing evenly, which means some will be in migher priced areas, or put it in the cheapest areas possible, meaning it will all end up concentrated in current social housing hotspots and we know that doesn't work.

To repeat, the choice is distribute and have it cost more, or concentrate in cheap areas and enaure problem areas like darndale continue to be problems long into the future.

voluntary · 16-06-2019 9:21pm

Fan of Netflix wrote: »

Given the price of property and land in this council area, you would have to question the overall idea of social housing at all there.

The alternative is to create crime soaked ghettos.
If taxpayer wants to provide social housing, then maybe it should open the purse and do it justly, X percent of social homes per population in each area. This way areas already saturated with social housing would not get a new one for a long time, while most social homes would be placed in a better suited constituencies. Richer societies can also afford sorting out social issues, sponsor integration services, job upskilling programs etc.

It's in the society's interest not to divide the society even more but to drive it towards more equality and inclusiveness.
Rich people will find a way anyway to stay exclusive, so don't be worry about them.

LirW · 16-06-2019 10:20pm

I don't get why there's a tiptoeing around the real issue if anti-social behaviour. My next door neighbours are council tenants and live here for over 30 years. There are nice families with nice kids and they all play with mine. They aren't a bother.
But if the council decides to move a tenant acting the maggot there's literally nothing I could do about it and instead of them getting in trouble it's on me to sit it out or move out of the house we're paying for with our hard-earned money.
Social housing wouldn't be this controversial if there would be a proper approach to deal with the bad apple spoiling the basket.

uli84 · 16-06-2019 10:25pm

hmmm wrote: »

Opposite Dundrum shopping centre, right beside two LUAS stations. These are highly desirable apartment blocks facilitating commuters, and in my opinion should only be made available to workers.

If the council wants to help people, buy them and rent them to low-paid workers. But no-one who doesn't have or want a job should be handed one of these.

A dream for a lot of hard working couples, a reality for welfare recipients. How much further could that go...It actually annoys me what is getting funded from my taxes. It’s like Im paying for the party but not attending it..

Caquas · 30-11-2019 6:07pm

Not to worry-the Council isn’t buying these 87 apartments- the Germans will. And the Council will rent them for 25 years at guaranteed rents of between €2,000 to €3,000 a month.

This is insanity but local government in Ireland has lost the capacity to build housing so it must divert housing from the market to those lucky few who mysteriously appear at the top of their housing lists.

https://www.independent.ie/business/irish/council-pays-up-to-3000-a-month-to-rent-plush-flats-off-cuckoo-fund-38740107.html

Social Housing Areas - Dublin Councils

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