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Catalan independence referendum, 2017

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Comments

  • #2342
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,065 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Celia Late Troop wrote: »
    Not after they secured a court order because the govt tried to shut it down but you can also ignore that fact.

    Wealthy streets? Half the city was out. Are you resentful that some people have more money than you, would you say the same about the "poorer" streets in Madrid?
    Barna77 wrote: »
    Of course it's all down to money envy and class struggle :rolleyes:

    Final warning. Be civil please.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



  • #2343
    bertie 56
    Registered Users Posts: 602 ✭✭✭bertie 56


    Barna77 wrote: »
    I heard though about Casado's sickening agenda, bringing up terrorism. What else could we expect from PP. Terrorism is always on their minds...


    PP and others ... :rolleyes:

    We see there the well-known " Todo es ETA " of Basque Country .


    Do you remember the spectacular arrests of Catalan civil rights activists and sent to jail on terrorism charges , with the big titles on the Spanish press ?


    https://www.ara.cat/especials/portadaaportada/portades-diaris-dimarts-24-setembre-2019_0_2312768894.html


    Well, few months after, what is left of the terrorist charges ?



    " ‘no material contact with explosives’" , " did not have any explosives in his home " , " these ‘precursor substances’ found at his home relate to his work of restoring furniture and antiques. " , etc...

    https://www.spainenglish.com/2020/01/10/activists-terrorism-charges-released-bail/
    :rolleyes:
    Barna77 wrote: »
    Madrid is a joke. Meaning the regional government (PP).
    Isabel Díaz Ayuso , President of the Community of Madrid ( from PP ) , explaining on the radio 2 weeks ago :

    " The virus is named CoviD 19 , because it's Coronavirus, December- 19 "

    :D


  • #2344
    bertie 56
    Registered Users Posts: 602 ✭✭✭bertie 56


    Celia Late Troop wrote: »
    Btw it was actually Iglesias (one of the new several vice-presidents and leader of Podemos) who invoked his own father, a convicted terrorist, on several occasions.


    No.


    Francisco Javier Iglesias, father of Pablo Iglesias, has never been convicted of terrorism.


    The last one who accused him of the same was the far right / fascist Vox MEP Hermann Tertsch in 2018.


    He was sentenced to pay € 15,000 to Iglesias's father for "illegitimate interference and violation of the right to honor, privacy and self-image " in Zamora the 29th of May 2019.




    Next one will surely be la Cayetana for the same reason.
    :rolleyes:


  • #2345
    Celia Late Troop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,913 ✭✭✭ Celia Late Troop


    bertie 56 wrote: »
    No.


    Francisco Javier Iglesias, father of Pablo Iglesias, has never been convicted of terrorism.


    The last one who accused him of the same was the far right / fascist Vox MEP Hermann Tertsch in 2018.


    He was sentenced to pay € 15,000 to Iglesias's father for "illegitimate interference and violation of the right to honor, privacy and self-image " in Zamora the 29th of May 2019.


    Next one will surely be la Cayetana for the same reason.
    :rolleyes:

    I don't think so, Iglesias doesn't want to have a problem with his neighbors ;)

    When is Puidgemont coming back?


  • #2346
    bertie 56
    Registered Users Posts: 602 ✭✭✭bertie 56


    Celia Late Troop wrote: »
    I don't think so, Iglesias doesn't want to have a problem with his neighbors ;)


    I'm not a " Hola ! " reader, so I wouldn't be able to tell you where Cayetana lives .

    For J.Iglesias,he lives in Zamora ( it's written in the Court Case report I was talking about)
    So no, it won't happen, there is very few chances that the Marquise Cayetana lives there too ! ;)




    Celia Late Troop wrote: »
    When is Puidgemont coming back?


    So far, Puidgemont and Catalan Ministers in exile has visited 17 European Countries freely in the last 3 years , including Ireland ( see map ) .


    They are free to travel all around the world , except Spain.


    So I suppose Puigdemont will be able to come back when Spain acts like all the other countries , which is respecting his rights, civil and political. ( no time-frame for this, though... :o )


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  • #2347
    Celia Late Troop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,913 ✭✭✭ Celia Late Troop


    bertie 56 wrote: »
    I'm not a " Hola ! " reader, so I wouldn't be able to tell you where Cayetana lives .

    For J.Iglesias,he lives in Zamora ( it's written in the Court Case report I was talking about)
    So no, it won't happen, there is very few chances that the Marquise Cayetana lives there too ! ;)

    So far, Puidgemont and Catalan Ministers in exile has visited 17 European Countries freely in the last 3 years , including Ireland ( see map ) .


    They are free to travel all around the world , except Spain.


    So I suppose Puigdemont will be able to come back when Spain acts like all the other countries , which is respecting his rights, civil and political. ( no time-frame for this, though... :o )

    Why won't Sanchez and Iglesias let him come back, PSOE and Podemos are in government and they have the support of the parties in Catalonia so it should be a slam dunk. PP is out of the picture so surely they could bring him back?


  • #2348
    bertie 56
    Registered Users Posts: 602 ✭✭✭bertie 56


    Celia Late Troop wrote: »
    Why won't Sanchez and Iglesias let him come back, PSOE and Podemos are in government and they have the support of the parties in Catalonia so it should be a slam dunk. PP is out of the picture so surely they could bring him back?


    How do you want the government to intervene ?


    Are you suggesting that judicial independence doesn't exist in Spain ?


  • #2349
    Celia Late Troop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,913 ✭✭✭ Celia Late Troop


    bertie 56 wrote: »
    How do you want the government to intervene ?


    Are you suggesting that judicial independence doesn't exist in Spain ?

    Am I suggesting that? You've suggested that for the last 3 years...


  • #2350
    Naya Quick Dude
    Posts: 6,192 ✭✭✭ Naya Quick Dude


    Regional elections tomorrow in cathalona.....will be interesting to see i they keep pressure up,in face of whs terrible oppression from the spanish government


  • #2351
    EagererBeaver
    Registered Users Posts: 6,408 ✭✭✭EagererBeaver


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Regional elections tomorrow in cathalona.....will be interesting to see i they keep pressure up,in face of whs terrible oppression from the spanish government

    What pressure are they keeping up at the minute. Esquerra and Junta are too busy squabbling at the minute. It's almost as if, independence apart, they're diametrically opposed...

    I think Illa and PSC will "win" but we'll be back in a situation with no clear majority. What will be interesting to see if if any of the parties on the right or far right make any significant gains. The increase in the number of Vox banners and posters about the place has clear to see. They're feeling emboldened.


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  • #2352
    Barna77
    Registered Users Posts: 3,271 ✭✭✭Barna77


    The rise of Vox in Spain is a consequence of the Catalonia issue.

    I was surprised to see opinion polls, in Catalonia, in which they ranked higher than PP, and by far.


  • #2353
    EagererBeaver
    Registered Users Posts: 6,408 ✭✭✭EagererBeaver


    Jesus, Vox with 11 seats.

    Looks like it'll be more of the same. Independistas with the most seats but a minority of votes. Poor enough turnout, about 52%.


  • #2354
    EagererBeaver
    Registered Users Posts: 6,408 ✭✭✭EagererBeaver


    Looks like the independistas will get 51% of the popular vote. Hugely symbolic for them as it's the first time is ever happened. Turnout form 26% odd compared to last time.


  • #2355
    breatheme
    Registered Users Posts: 375 ✭✭breatheme


    I live in Barcelona and honestly just feel like "well, here we go again."

    Turnout was dire.


  • #2356
    bertie 56
    Registered Users Posts: 602 ✭✭✭bertie 56


    Good win for the independentists , ( + 4 seats ) with absolute majority in number of votes , and with the " hard-line " ( CUP ) winning 5 seats.

    Big lost for the " hard-line " of unionists ( C's, PP, Vox ) losing 20 seats .

    The majority of all votes has been for left parties, and the majority of pro-independence votes has been for left parties too.

    Turnout higher of the average around during a pandemic time ( compares to Galicia, Basque Country, Portugal or France ) , and close to what has been seen before in Catalonia ( 2006 or 1992, for exemple ).

    So , overall ( and once again ) good progress of the independentist movement in this forced election.


  • #2357
    EagererBeaver
    Registered Users Posts: 6,408 ✭✭✭EagererBeaver


    Pablo Hásel arrested this morning, taken out of the University of Llèida. Utter ridiculousness of Spanish law brought into the spotlight once again.

    The word "fascist" is thrown around far too readily by too many people these days, particularly when it comes to the Catalan question and the approach of the Spanish state, but it's hard to ignore when there are cases and scenes like this. Like something from a gulf state of Thailand.


  • #2358
    Naya Quick Dude
    Posts: 6,192 ✭✭✭ Naya Quick Dude


    EagererBeaver wrote: »
    Pablo Hásel arrested this morning, taken out of the University of Llèida. Utter ridiculousness of Spanish law brought into the spotlight once again.

    The word "fascist" is thrown around far too readily by too many people these days, particularly when it comes to the Catalan question and the approach of the Spanish state, but it's hard to ignore when there are cases and scenes like this. Like something from a gulf state of Thailand.

    i hope the EU can intervene this time and lean on spain to cop on.....lost a lot of respect/time forbit during the time of the independamce vote


  • #2359
    breatheme
    Registered Users Posts: 375 ✭✭breatheme


    I'm very pro not shaking up the status quo and maintaining... "unity". But I can't excuse the Spanish government sometimes.

    At the very least, I do think it's good that the Spanish government faces pressure from the pro-independence parties. As pro-status quo I might be (e.g. EU membership) I also realise that it's broken and not working for everyone in this country, and that there are issues that must be addressed and fixed, rather than swept under the rug again.


  • #2360
    bertie 56
    Registered Users Posts: 602 ✭✭✭bertie 56


    With the arrest of Pablo Hasel, I think Spain wants to stay World Champions in artists repression...

    ( Spain is the country that have the most artists in prison in the all world, more than Turkey, Iran or Myanmar ).


    During this time ( 2 days ago ), Neonazis in Madrid paid tribute to WWII division that fought under Hitler's order, all this legally and without any problems. https://eurojewcong.org/news/communities-news/spain/the-enemy-will-always-be-the-same-far-right-groups-honour-nazi-collaborators-in-madrid/


    No wonder why there is a constant growing numbers of Catalans who wants independence ! :rolleyes:


  • #2361
    EagererBeaver
    Registered Users Posts: 6,408 ✭✭✭EagererBeaver


    bertie 56 wrote: »
    ( Spain is the country that have the most artists in prison in the all world, more than Turkey, Iran or Myanmar ).

    Gonna have to push you for a source on that one...


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  • #2362
    Barna77
    Registered Users Posts: 3,271 ✭✭✭Barna77


    Spanish justice system has always been a joke, I'll give you that. Only in Spain you'd need an enquiry to find out who's "M.Rajoy"


  • #2363
    bertie 56
    Registered Users Posts: 602 ✭✭✭bertie 56


    EagererBeaver wrote: »
    Gonna have to push you for a source on that one...


    Here it is for you :



    Page 13 of the report you can find here :
    https://freemuse.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/State-of-Artistic-Freedom-2020-1.pdf


    Taken from this page :
    https://freemuse.org/news/the-state-of-artistic-freedom-2020/


  • #2364
    EagererBeaver
    Registered Users Posts: 6,408 ✭✭✭EagererBeaver


    A mere 5 artists are imprisoned in China? Really?


  • #2365
    bertie 56
    Registered Users Posts: 602 ✭✭✭bertie 56


    EagererBeaver wrote: »
    A mere 5 artists are imprisoned in China? Really?


    There is no reason to doubt about the seriousness of this report.


    Here is how the authors are presenting themselves :


    " Freemuse (freemuse.org) is an independent international non-governmental organisation advocating for freedom of artistic expression and cultural diversity. Freemuse has United Nations Special Consultative Status to the Economic and Social Council (UN-ECOSOC) and Consultative Status with UNESCO.
    (...) Freemuse is known for its annual flagship report, The State of Artistic Freedom, widely referenced by governments, UN officials, academia and key actors in the fields of culture and art."




    About China:
    According to this American organization ( www.cecc.gov ) , there were 1.598 political prisoners in China in 2019 , with only 4 of them being artists.


    You can find the list here :
    https://www.cecc.gov/sites/chinacommission.house.gov/files/documents/CECC%20Pris%20List%2020191010.pdf


    All this to say that the number of 5 artists for China given by Freemuse seems correct.



    ( Feel free to report to Freemuse and to CECC any other cases unknown to them )


  • #2366
    bertie 56
    Registered Users Posts: 602 ✭✭✭bertie 56


    Deleted User wrote: »
    i hope the EU can intervene this time and lean on spain to cop on.....lost a lot of respect/time forbit during the time of the independamce vote

    I had some hopes too when I heard the beautiful speech Spanish Josep Borell ( Vice-President of the European Commission ) gave 2 days ago :
    https://twitter.com/josepborrellf/status/1361332231378243588

    And then arrives the usual answer of EU , in 8 seconds :
    https://www.catalannews.com/catalan-news-tv/item/hasel-case-a-member-state-matter-says-european-commission
    :rolleyes:


  • #2367
    breatheme
    Registered Users Posts: 375 ✭✭breatheme


    The European Union is its own member states and it is not meant to be an abstract entity above them.

    Having said that, I do find it weird that Poland and Hungary are getting accused of breaking rule of law but Spain is exempt from criticism.


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