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BLM, or WLM? [MOD WARNING: FIRST POST]

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Comments

  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    GreeBo wrote: »
    Your posts are very contradictory and frankly all over the place. You blame black people for the racism thats directed at them without a hint of irony.

    Look in the mirror, dude.

    You responded to my post with a heap of questions which fail to actually consider what I wrote. You're in attack mode, dismissing anything that doesn't match your own narrative. As for consistency, I've stuck to the same points.... the fact that you don't see that, simply shows how little you considered my points before objecting to them.

    Perfect example... I didn't "blame black people for the racism thats directed at them". Not even close.

    So... before making accusations, perhaps consider your own posting habits. :rolleyes:


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,314 ✭✭✭paw patrol


    SozBbz wrote: »

    I know if I broke the law, I'd reasonably fancy my chances in front of the courts because;
    1. I'd present well - educated, well dressed, articulate
    2. I know my rights and expect to be treated well and fairly
    3. I can afford good legal representation

    Thats because I'm a product of my own middle class environment.

    Not everyone has all that and we know those that don't tend to have worse outcomes.


    this privilege is wealth not race - that is a privilege the only privilege(perhaps political access but that's tied with wealth)


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,314 ✭✭✭paw patrol


    anybody who uses the phrase "white privilege" is a racist.
    Time to start calling out what it is.


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,224 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    paw patrol wrote: »
    anybody who used the phrase "white privilege" is a racist.
    Time to start call out what it is.
    Agree 100%


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,889 ✭✭✭SozBbz


    paw patrol wrote: »
    this privilege is wealth not race - that is a privilege the only privilege(perhaps political access but that's tied with wealth)

    People of a certain race seem to have a emassed a lot of that wealth and privilege over the years though haven't they.

    Its like a previous poster said, when people from certain communities have drug issues, its seen as criminal.

    When people from more privileged communities get addled of illegal prescription meds, its a healthcare issue.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    This is seriously what you're getting from it?!?! They state, both in the video and article, that it doesn't mean that at all but to say that black lives matter just as much as white lives.

    Here is the type of thing that never would have happened to a white father and son going on a charity cycle.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/jun/28/black-teenager-on-family-cycle-ride-injured-during-aggressive-police-arrest
    Which is where the real problem really lies, in the clear systemic failures. Unfortunately that tends to get lost in the battleground on social media and on the streets where anger and contempt for anyone not sharing the same thinking is often more important than actual solutions.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,237 ✭✭✭Sonics2k


    paw patrol wrote: »
    anybody who uses the phrase "white privilege" is a racist.
    Time to start call out what it is.

    Well no, because it's highly contextual. By and large (and in many negative ways) due to general media our Irish society can be influenced by US media and culture.

    In Ireland itself, white privilege isn't really a thing in the day to day life, however you can absolutely say class privilege is a thing here.
    I'm a middle class guy who presents himself quite well, and frankly have been given a lot more slack when it comes to loans and finance than a fair amount of "lower" class people would.

    The concept of white privilege in somewhere like the US is a very real thing, alongside class privilege.

    The problem here is that some people (on the left especially) have used the concept of white privilege as a form of weapon, an implication that white = a better life.

    In truth white privilege stems more in things like dealing with the police, various justice departments and even employment.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,314 ✭✭✭paw patrol


    SozBbz wrote: »
    People of a certain race seem to have a emassed a lot of that wealth and privilege over the years though haven't they.


    Maybe, maybe not . I dont actually agree though


    Take a multiculturial spot like london. There is much foreign wealth of many races.

    But in terms of enough wealth to build a multi generational dynasty ? perhaps not , but there aren't many non-white people in the Uk that have roots earlier than the 1960s , so it's too early to judge that.
    A rich arab will have more access than a working class white person from Essex. That alone will disproves your point.
    SozBbz wrote: »
    Its like a previous poster said, when people from certain communities have drug issues, its seen as criminal.
    When people from more privileged communities get addled of illegal prescription meds, its a healthcare issue.


    everycase is different , the wealthier drug addict can mostly afford it through their own means. the poorer one through crime. then it is crime.
    However we see in the courts when middle class people rip off their employer for gambling or drugs - it's seen as crime just as it would be .


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Sonics2k wrote: »
    In truth white privilege stems more in things like dealing with the police, various justice departments and even employment.

    It's racist because it's used almost exclusively towards a single race, ie. white people.

    There is no debate about black privilege (which may exist in predominately black populations/communities), Asian privilege, female privilege, etc. In addition it's used as a blanket statement to apply to all White people irrespective of that persons individual circumstances... a hillbilly living out of a caravan with no education and living off casual labor, is still privileged because they're white.

    Which is why white privilege is a case of racism... If it was a term that was used in a more balanced way, to describe all races, genders, etc then it might have more use, although even there, it's encouraging stereotyping, which is considered racist.


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,960 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo



    Perfect example... I didn't "blame black people for the racism thats directed at them". Not even close.

    So... before making accusations, perhaps consider your own posting habits. :rolleyes:

    So when you said
    klaz wrote:
    Black culture needs to evolve away from the constant victim narrative and take responsibility for their own failings.

    What exactly did you mean? Why did you bring it up in response to racism?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,237 ✭✭✭Sonics2k


    It's racist because it's used almost exclusively towards a single race, ie. white people.

    There is no debate about black privilege (which may exist in predominately black populations/communities), Asian privilege, female privilege, etc. In addition it's used as a blanket statement to apply to all White people irrespective of that persons individual circumstances... a hillbilly living out of a caravan with no education and living off casual labor, is still privileged because they're white.

    Which is why white privilege is a case of racism... If it was a term that was used in a more balanced way, to describe all races, genders, etc then it might have more use, although even there, it's encouraging stereotyping, which is considered racist.

    I mean, I did literally highlight that class privilege is a thing but it seems you chose to ignore that? And also 100% ignored the point I was making of what white privilege is in an American context.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    GreeBo wrote: »
    What exactly did you mean? Why did you bring it up in response to racism?

    "For me, I find that there is complete focus on external problems for BLM and/or the Black communities. Their whole culture is centered around passing all responsibility for their state of existence on to others. Rather than improve themselves through education, and avoidance of trouble, their culture idolizes role-models who have failed education, and have engaged in crime."

    It's worth considering the whole post... generally you'll find the answer in a previous paragraph.

    You want to make the whole debate solely about racism... I'm more interested in the complete situation.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Sonics2k wrote: »
    I mean, I did literally highlight that class privilege is a thing but it seems you chose to ignore that? And also 100% ignored the point I was making of what white privilege is in an American context.

    White privilege is a term. You didn't start by talking about privilege, you started in response to "white privilege" and went from there.

    The point being that you didn't consider white privilege to be racist, whereas I do.


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,224 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    White privilege is a term. You didn't start by talking about privilege, you started in response to "white privilege" and went from there.

    The point being that you didn't consider white privilege to be racist, whereas I do.
    "White Privilege" is a racist term used by some black people and some lefty loon whites.
    You don't get privilege by being white. Warren buffet is white, as are the majority of homeless people/people living below the poverty line in the US.


    I never owned any slaves, you (as a black person in this analogy) were never a slave. I'm not going to apologize for being white. I'm as entitled to be proudly white as you are proud to be black.


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,960 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo



    You want to make the whole debate solely about racism... I'm more interested in the complete situation.

    Fantastic, but perhaps take that to a general black people thread rather than derail the one about the BLM movement? (Which in case you don't know, is the Movement to fight for Freedom, Liberation and Justice)

    If you want to blame black people for not bettering themselves, go start your own thread.

    I'd also point out the fact that many, many white cultural icons have engaged in crime and have minimal education.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    GreeBo wrote: »
    Fantastic, but perhaps take that to a general black people thread rather than derail the one about the BLM movement? (Which in case you don't know, is the Movement to fight for Freedom, Liberation and Justice)

    I know what the name stands for, I've looked at their mandate, and the various websites dedicated to their aims.

    And I'll continue posting to this thread... you don't need to respond to my posts.
    If you want to blame black people for not bettering themselves, go start your own thread.

    Blame? Rather suggestive.... which is the point of using the word. As I said before, you're in attack stance against whatever doesn't fit with your own narrative.
    I'd also point out the fact that many, many white cultural icons have engaged in crime and have minimal education.

    True. Although they're a distinct minority. Can you say the same about Black cultural Icons?


  • Registered Users Posts: 465 ✭✭southstar


    It seems to me that the term white privilege is simply lazy, crude and and self serving.. Pursuing this lack of nuance we could all rail on about male,straight,youth,European,American please insert category privilege and blather on endlessly with this tripe.I could cite affirmative action as black privelage.I could point out to the noticeable lack of reaction to a video posted near the start of this thread depicting a white man being savagely beaten and robbed by a black mob...a cowardly hate crime as you'll ever see..no response here...no big media reaction...privilege or what...just gormless hypocrisy .I don't doubt racism exists but it's become a bandwagon for many deluded ,lazy and cynical players.....a veritable Bonfire of the Vanities as Tom Wolfe's 1980s novel describes


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,889 ✭✭✭SozBbz


    paw patrol wrote: »

    A rich arab will have more access than a working class white person from Essex. That alone will disproves your point.



    .

    For goodness sake, this is beyond ridiculous.

    Tell me where I said that the poorest white person is richer than the richest person of colour? So in what way does it disprove my point?

    Globally, the average white person is richer than the average black person. Surely you get that. A few rich foreigners buying up property in London does not alter that fact.


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,224 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    SozBbz wrote: »
    For goodness sake, this is beyond ridiculous.

    Tell me where I said that the poorest white person is richer than the richest person of colour? So in what way does it disprove my point?

    Globally, the average white person is richer than the average black person. Surely you get that. A few rich foreigners buying up property in London does not alter that fact.
    If being a person of color was an inherent discrimination and didnt allow you to have wealth, then there would be no rich black people, no rich arabs, etc


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,889 ✭✭✭SozBbz


    southstar wrote: »
    It seems to me that the term white privilege is simply lazy, crude and and self serving.. Pursuing this lack of nuance we could all rail on about male,straight,youth,European,American please insert category privilege and blather on endlessly with this tripe.I could cite affirmative action as black privelage.I could point out to the noticeable lack of reaction to a video posted near the start of this thread depicting a white man being savagely beaten and robbed by a black mob...a cowardly hate crime as you'll ever see..no response here...no big media reaction...privilege or what...just gormless hypocrisy .I don't doubt racism exists but it's become a bandwagon for many deluded ,lazy and cynical players.....a veritable Bonfire of the Vanities as Tom Wolfe's 1980s novel describes

    It seems to me that people who lack the basic empathy and humility to examine their own view of the world are part of the problem.

    For the slow learners - no one supporting BLM on this thread ever said that black people cannot or do not commit crime. People of all races commit crimes, including violent crimes.

    BLM is specifically advocating for justice when crime is committed by the Police, who are in a position of both legal and moral authority and should be held to a higher standard. Time and again, we see the police playing fast and loose with this power and authority, and black people suffering for that. The police are publicly funded so I don't see any issue with members of the public demanding accountability. The fact that somewhere, somehow a black person or persons beat up a white person, does not change that black people are disproportionately victims of police brutality in the US.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 19,873 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    BLM rubbish has gone way over the top now at this stage. If anything, more normal thinking people will turn against it such is the way it is rammed down our throats on a daily basis.

    People, like yourself, who would be predisposed to opposing BLM anyway, will be looking for an excuse to be turned off. But those same people were "turned off" by the initial protests, then they were turned off anew by the suggestion of taking down statues, then again by actually taking down statues, then for a brief while everyone seemed to agree that the Colston statue should be taken (after it had been taken down) but we're totally turned off by the OTT way BLM did it. Then they were turned off by suggestions that they should take down any other statues. Then they were turned off by the removing media with racist connotations.

    So what exactly has turned you off the movement afresh this time? And is it worth considering that peope who keep being turned off the movent at every turn were actually only in favour of BLM as long as they didn't achieve any actual change? They were never in favour in practice so they're not exactly any loss to the movement.


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,960 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    I know what the name stands for, I've looked at their mandate, and the various websites dedicated to their aims.

    And I'll continue posting to this thread... you don't need to respond to my posts.

    So then you are guilty of the same whataboutery as the WLM or ALM groups. You are taking away from the purpose of BLM.
    Blame? Rather suggestive.... which is the point of using the word. As I said before, you're in attack stance against whatever doesn't fit with your own narrative.

    If not blame, what do you mean by "Their whole culture is centered around passing all responsibility for their state of existence on to others."
    True. Although they're a distinct minority. Can you say the same about Black cultural Icons?
    Does that in anyway impact the racism black people are experiencing?
    I'd also argue that a huge number of black icons are sports people, you seem to be focussing on rappers I'm guessing?


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,960 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    ELM327 wrote: »
    If being a person of color was an inherent discrimination and didnt allow you to have wealth, then there would be no rich black people, no rich arabs, etc

    What if it just makes it much, much harder than it is for white people?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14,311 ✭✭✭✭weldoninhio


    GreeBo wrote: »
    Its an equality movement, all they are looking for is black lives to matter as much as white lives already do.

    Have you actually read their manifesto and aims?? I don't think you have, and therefore you, and the likes of you, are useful idiots for them.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14,311 ✭✭✭✭weldoninhio


    GreeBo wrote: »
    How does that draw attention to the fact that currently, black lives demonstrably don't matter as much as white lives do?

    What do you think needs to change for lives other than black lives to make them matter more? Is it even possible to make white lives matter more? Who is suppressing your white lives at the moment?

    I would say the complete opposite. Every time a black person is murdered by a cop it makes headline news and there are riots and political handwringing.

    Doesn't happen every time a cop shoots a white person, which happens a lot more.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,081 ✭✭✭The Raging Bile Duct


    Have you actually read their manifesto and aims?? I don't think you have, and therefore you, and the likes of you, are useful idiots for them.

    Are you talking about the ten point manfesto in relation to policing and oversight? What am I missing in it that's so dangerous?


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    GreeBo wrote: »
    So then you are guilty of the same whataboutery as the WLM or ALM groups. You are taking away from the purpose of BLM.

    How did I take away from the purpose of BLM? Yeah... I didn't.

    It's completely pointless discussing anything with you because you insist on inserting crap that I haven't said, and the seeking to argue your own inserted crap.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,902 ✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    SozBbz wrote: »
    It seems to me that people who lack the basic empathy and humility to examine their own view of the world are part of the problem.

    For the slow learners - no one supporting BLM on this thread ever said that black people cannot or do not commit crime. People of all races commit crimes, including violent crimes.

    BLM is specifically advocating for justice when crime is committed by the Police, who are in a position of both legal and moral authority and should be held to a higher standard. Time and again, we see the police playing fast and loose with this power and authority, and black people suffering for that. The police are publicly funded so I don't see any issue with members of the public demanding accountability. The fact that somewhere, somehow a black person or persons beat up a white person, does not change that black people are disproportionately victims of police brutality in the US.

    The problem with that view is that it ignores the statistics that show all people are affected by this, it's not exclusive or unique to the black community. For any of the high profile deaths involving a black person, you can find a corresponding one for a white person.

    There are absolutely a wide swath of interlocking issues that need addressing in the US, that conspire to keep poor masses in their boxes. Any person with an interest in a fair and just society should be supportive of that.

    BLM, as an organisation ,is not about simply advocating for an equal society. It is about pushing black issues to the front, about positioning "Blackness" to the top of the social ladder. In the general competition of society, that's not in and of itself a negative aspiration. Any community or social group is going to wish for success for themselves. However, trying to portray "Whiteness" as a bad thing, framing white people as the source of all ills is horse ****.

    Theirs is a language of division, of denigration. I don't support that.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,993 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    GreeBo wrote: »
    Its an equality movement, all they are looking for is black lives to matter as much as white lives already do.

    Am I reading the correct website?

    https://blacklivesmatter.com/what-we-believe/

    Is this the correct organisation?

    I will highlight below what most sensible people reject:




    We disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure requirement by supporting each other as extended families and “villages” that collectively care for one another, especially our children, to the degree that mothers, parents, and children are comfortable.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 32,802 ✭✭✭✭NIMAN




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