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Has ignoring red lights gotten a lot worse?

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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 47,978 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    engiweirdo wrote: »
    I think the main difference to be fair is the jaywalker isn't a chunk of steel weighing the bones of a tonne.
    yeah, if it's €80 for running a red in a car, to fine a pedestrian any more than €5 for jaywalking would be grossly unfair.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,337 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    But why go to all that trouble using valuable and limited time and resources? What impact will it have other than to make individuals like yourself feel better about themselves? The little boy in the OP was killed by vehicle. I don't know of any red-light breaking cyclists who have killed other road users but I do know vehicles have. Given the pressures the guards are under and the reality that there is not a limitless money pot of resources to throw at this problem surely the focus should be on those that are likely to cause danger/risk to life - vehicle drivers.
    it won't make me feel better, I was saying it would be actually quite simple and cheap to set up, and if they only done it a fwe times a year, it would reinforce the idea that it is inappropriate. I don't care, I cycle everywhere, I stop at red lights and have been attacked for doing so by one driver who thought I had done it to annoy them. I erally don't give a flying f*ck, just saying if it is a huge concern for the public, and they are using it as some sort of childish, well why don't they get in trouble for it, why don't I, that you can actually do it, easily and without issue.

    This of course annoys people like this, because then they no longer have their moanbag excuse not to put in the RL cameras.
    I cycle. I don't break red lights. I see lots of other cyclists obeying the lights. I also see other cyclists who don't. Antidotely I see more cars break the lights than any cyclist. Sure it annoys me when cyclists go through red lights because unfortunately people like to lump us all together as a homogeneous group so their behaviour gives the rest of us a bad name and provides ammunition for keyboardwarriers/joe duffy callers. But I also recognise that the risk of this behaviour to anyone other than themselves is usually pretty minimal. I don't condone it but I really don't think we should be ploughing money into 3 man teams to be set up at 'cyclists-running-red-lights-black-spots' in order to catch the idiots.
    100%, cyclist breaking red lights is not a major issue, most people when on bikes are more concerned about arriving alive than the lights, and for that reason, don't tend to run lights. I was just making the point, cyclists breaking lights is not a reason not to put up the cameras, in fact it is a stupid reason, and I have given a way around it, at little cost (not ploughing money in as you say).


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,983 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    prinzeugen wrote: »
    Here's a short compilation of the red-light-jumping junction-blocking drivers of Dublin, opening with Macken St, the junction that keeps on giving;

    https://streamable.com/mtunz

    You broke a red light in one and another cyclist did in another. Pot, kettle, black! Green men are for pedestrians only. By law you broke a red light.

    The Road Traffic Act applies to all road users.
    You need to do some research on how the lights work on the canal cycle track.


  • Registered Users Posts: 776 ✭✭✭Busman Paddy Lasty


    This has definitely increased over the last few years. Every day at almost every major junction on the Old Airport Road I see this happen.

    Very dangerous at junctions with two crossings. Drivers focused on getting through the first crossing, reaching the second crossing at speed when pedestrians are already half way across.

    Camera enforcement needed to cut this out.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,358 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    yeah, if it's €80 for running a red in a car, to fine a pedestrian any more than €5 for jaywalking would be grossly unfair.

    Why should accountability for jaywalking not be the same? The argument in this whole thread is that someone is on a part of the road they shouldn't be at a point in time. The issue with law is ruling to exceptions regarding why they are there. But not whether they are pedestrian, cyclist, motor cylclist, or any sort of vehicle being driven.


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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 47,978 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    i actually am struggling to come up with a reason that isn't the bloody obvious.


  • Registered Users Posts: 31 greenwaving


    yeah, if it's €80 for running a red in a car, to fine a pedestrian any more than €5 for jaywalking would be grossly unfair.

    Why should accountability for jaywalking not be the same? The argument in this whole thread is that someone is on a part of the road they shouldn't be at a point in time. The issue with law is ruling to exceptions regarding why they are there. But not whether they are pedestrian, cyclist, motor cylclist, or any sort of vehicle being driven.

    If you look at the OP the "argument" on this whole thread arose from a the death of child by a driver who ignored the lights and the potential for risk to the lives of other vunerable road users due to similar behaviour from other drivers out there. When pedestrians start killing children due to their jaywalking maybe then we should look at tackling their "crimes".


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,358 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    i actually am struggling to come up with a reason that isn't the bloody obvious.

    Don't strain yourself too hard. I'm not expecting the "obvious" to be up to scratch anyway if you're just going to say a Pedestrian can't do the same damage as a car.

    It's not the drivers fault a jaywalker is on the road. And it can be quiet traumatic if a jaywalker was to come out and be struck as a result.

    All people using the road should have the same accountability for their use of it regardless of the mode.

    Pointing the finger at some who jumping red lights, is only looking to increase the rift that exists between modes.

    I'm a pedestrian, a cyclist, a commuter and a driver. Everyone who uses the road needs to be accountable for it.
    If you look at the OP the "argument" on this whole thread arose from a the death of child by a driver who ignored the lights and the potential for risk to the lives of other vunerable road users due to similar behaviour from other drivers out there. When pedestrians start killing children due to their jaywalking maybe then we should look at tackling their "crimes".

    I use to drive through Dublin City frequently. Everyday I saw adults pull kids across the road with them into traffic.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,121 ✭✭✭amcalester



    All people using the road should have the same accountability for their use of it regardless of the mode.

    There's your mistake, you're thinking of it as using the road but you should be thinking of it as using the mode of transport and responsibilities already differ depending on the mode used.

    Different age limits exist depending on the mode.
    Different tests.
    Speed Limits.
    Amount of hours one can legally drive
    etc


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 47,978 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    All people using the road should have the same accountability for their use of it regardless of the mode.
    no, no, and thrice no.
    there is a sliding scale of accountability and responsibility - and yes, ability to do damage. this false equivalence of pedestrians and motorists is absurd.
    we expect higher standards of behaviour from jet aircraft pilots than we do of motorists. and higher standards from motorists than we do from pedestrians.

    it's why society allows my 13 year old niece to cycle her bike on the road, but won't let her drive a car.

    it's not an accident that motorists need a licence, insurance, and NCT to be allowed on the road. i've a rather sneaking suspicion that you'll find that more motorists are responsible for road deaths than pedestrians.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 31 greenwaving



    I use to drive through Dublin City frequently. Everyday I saw adults pull kids across the road with them into traffic.

    Which is stupidity at its finest but it only puts their own lives (and families) at risk. It's an entirely different scenario than vehicles flying through pedestrian crossings on red lights putting the lives of pedestrians and other car users coming through on a green at risk. Trying to equate them is nonsense and a false equivalence. They are different scenarios, carry different risks and as such should be tackled entirely differently.


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,369 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    I wish people would just fcukin GOOO!! the instant a light turns green. Far too much doddering around at lights with the result you get trapped unnecessarily at more reds. Might be a reason why more people are breaking them


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,121 ✭✭✭amcalester


    road_high wrote: »
    I wish people would just fcukin GOOO!! the instant a light turns green. Far too much doddering around at lights with the result you get trapped unnecessarily at more reds. Might be a reason why more people are breaking them

    The person not moving off is probably on their phone.


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,704 ✭✭✭✭RayCun


    road_high wrote: »
    I wish people would just fcukin GOOO!! the instant a light turns green. Far too much doddering around at lights with the result you get trapped unnecessarily at more reds. Might be a reason why more people are breaking them

    1. people on their phones
    2. people who know that just because the other roads at the junction have a red light doesn't mean there won't be any cars coming


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,983 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    All people using the road should have the same accountability for their use of it regardless of the mode.
    Interesting theory. Would you like to share your tachograph recording from your last car journey?

    You know that HGV and coach drivers have to have tachos, and you're keen for ALL PEOPLE to have the same accountability, so you must have a tacho fitted, right? And you did your mandatory one day training for this year already? If not, just a few days to go so you'd better book in.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 47,978 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    does that mean mandatory fitbits for anyone walking to the shops?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 689 ✭✭✭Ray Bloody Purchase


    does that mean mandatory fitbits for anyone walking to the shops?

    Or when i'm walking back from the pub after drinking 12 pints responsibly.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,121 ✭✭✭amcalester


    Or when i'm walking back from the pub after drinking 12 pints responsibly.

    Wheres the fun in drinking 12 pints responsibly?


  • Registered Users Posts: 872 ✭✭✭Get Real


    amcalester wrote: »
    It seems to have gotten much worse, time to introduce red light cameras.

    I saw a motorcyclist collide with a truck that ran a red light and turned across the motorcyclist, waited for the Guards to arrive to leave my details/make a statement but they didn't care. Left my name and never heard anything back.

    Just today I saw 3 cars that were stopped at a pedestrian crossing all break the red light once the pedestrian had crossed. They got less than 50 up the road before they rejoined the traffic jam so not sure why they bothered.

    I think the penalty should be increased for breaking reds. In this instance though you probably never heard anything back as a statement wasn't needed. Truck driver could have paid a ticket (rather than risk going to court about it as he's a professional driver) and a statement wasn't needed from you.

    If he was going to contest the matter then you would have been needed.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,358 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    amcalester wrote: »
    There's your mistake, you're thinking of it as using the road but you should be thinking of it as using the mode of transport and responsibilities already differ depending on the mode used.

    Different age limits exist depending on the mode.
    Different tests.
    Speed Limits.
    Amount of hours one can legally drive
    etc

    You can't cross the road without using it. The road traffic act, also references pedestrians and when/how they should cross the road.
    no, no, and thrice no.
    there is a sliding scale of accountability and responsibility - and yes, ability to do damage. this false equivalence of pedestrians and motorists is absurd.
    we expect higher standards of behaviour from jet aircraft pilots than we do of motorists. and higher standards from motorists than we do from pedestrians.

    it's why society allows my 13 year old niece to cycle her bike on the road, but won't let her drive a car.

    it's not an accident that motorists need a licence, insurance, and NCT to be allowed on the road. i've a rather sneaking suspicion that you'll find that more motorists are responsible for road deaths than pedestrians.

    So what about pilots? Should we bring in boats now as well? You are just stretching out to more advanced skill sets, to say ones responsibility is only determined by the criteria they've met? I don't expect anything to prevent someone from flying a plane who doesn't know how to drive a vehicle of any sort.
    Which is stupidity at its finest but it only puts their own lives (and families) at risk. It's an entirely different scenario than vehicles flying through pedestrian crossings on red lights putting the lives of pedestrians and other car users coming through on a green at risk. Trying to equate them is nonsense and a false equivalence. They are different scenarios, carry different risks and as such should be tackled entirely differently.

    I was responding to the person who was trivialising the accountability of someone who'll put themselves and others at risk by Jaywalking.

    I never once said their should be nothing done against people who rush through red lights. Just that it's not a simple thing to bring in, because we already allow for it to occurr.
    road_high wrote: »
    I wish people would just fcukin GOOO!! the instant a light turns green. Far too much doddering around at lights with the result you get trapped unnecessarily at more reds. Might be a reason why more people are breaking them

    Green doesn't mean go.
    amcalester wrote: »
    The person not moving off is probably on their phone.

    Or you know, looking around to see what's happening. To double check they can proceed.
    Interesting theory. Would you like to share your tachograph recording from your last car journey?

    You know that HGV and coach drivers have to have tachos, and you're keen for ALL PEOPLE to have the same accountability, so you must have a tacho fitted, right? And you did your mandatory one day training for this year already? If not, just a few days to go so you'd better book in.

    Tachographs are for monitoring driving and rest time of professional drivers. I'm not one, so I don't have any to provide.

    Some folks should read what's written for what it is before looking to just find a way to stamp down on it.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,121 ✭✭✭amcalester


    You can't cross the road without using it. The road traffic act, also references pedestrians and when/how they should cross the road.

    I don't understand the point you're trying to make.

    Are you saying that the punishment for jaywalking should be the same as running a red, because all road users should be held equally accountable?

    Does that then apply to all violations of the RTA?

    Or you know, looking around to see what's happening. To double check they can proceed.

    Perhaps the car at the front, but the driver 3 cars back with their face buried in their phone? Nah, pretty sure they are on their phone.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,822 ✭✭✭✭First Up


    Like everything, the answer is enforcement. Cameras on the lights and fines/points for offenders. End of problem.


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,983 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Tachographs are for monitoring driving and rest time of professional drivers. I'm not one, so I don't have any to provide.

    Some folks should read what's written for what it is before looking to just find a way to stamp down on it.

    What I read from you was: "All people using the road should have the same accountability for their use of it regardless of the mode."

    So it is 'all people' or not?

    Or perhaps, are you seeing some logic in varying levels of accountability for different levels of risk and danger?

    It's one or the other.


  • Registered Users Posts: 643 ✭✭✭Corca Baiscinn


    I posted the other day re having to stare down drivers who planned to proceed even tho' I was walking across at 2 pedestrian crossings. Yesterday I was crossing at the same place and a young fella just drove through anyway. Judging by this thread am thinking we should all be getting one of those loud bike horns to use when we need to at pedestrian crossings and green men!

    Posters are absolutely right re the crazy time lapse allowed between light changes. Today I observed 2 cars turn right on red at one set of lights and a different 2 go straight through on red at another junction when lights were red for them but thing is it didn't cause any issue as they were well gone before the opposing lights changed. This of course reinforces the problem, "sure what's the big deal, haven't I loads of time!" Time for the cameras!


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,681 ✭✭✭✭P_1


    I posted the other day re having to stare down drivers who planned to proceed even tho' I was walking across at 2 pedestrian crossings. Yesterday I was crossing at the same place and a young fella just drove through anyway. Judging by this thread am thinking we should all be getting one of those loud bike horns to use when we need to at pedestrian crossings and green men!

    Posters are absolutely right re the crazy time lapse allowed between light changes. Today I observed 2 cars turn right on red at one set of lights and a different 2 go straight through on red at another junction when lights were red for them but thing is it didn't cause any issue as they were well gone before the opposing lights changed. This of course reinforces the problem, "sure what's the big deal, haven't I loads of time!" Time for the cameras!

    Never mind the cameras. I think I may start carrying a hammer with me soon. Break a red light in your car, shame about the cost of a new wing mirror there pal


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    road_high wrote: »
    I wish people would just fcukin GOOO!! the instant a light turns green. Far too much doddering around at lights with the result you get trapped unnecessarily at more reds. Might be a reason why more people are breaking them

    How about Red/Red-Amber/Green as a method of reminding drivers that at some future point the light will change ? ( I believe they do this in some backward non-EU countries ? )

    The real issue here is Driver Distraction,on so many differing levels in the modern motor vehicle,just watch the heads going down when vehivles stop at Red Lights.......Text....Facebook...Twitter....the list is endless.


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 47,978 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    P_1 wrote: »
    Never mind the cameras. I think I may start carrying a hammer with me soon. Break a red light in your car, shame about the cost of a new wing mirror there pal
    ah here. no call for random acts of vandalism.




  • One of the causes of the "early red" syndrome it the fact that most motorists are aware that there is a gap in the timings when all lights are red, so they know that there is often two seconds before the next green the opposite way.

    Maybe we should introduce the green/amber sequence into this gap, as used in the UK and several European countries, doing this will stop the red jumpers as they know that the cross traffic will appear almost immediately after the red light.
    AlekSmart wrote: »
    How about Red/Red-Amber/Green as a method of reminding drivers that at some future point the light will change ? ( I believe they do this in some backward non-EU countries ? )

    The real issue here is Driver Distraction,on so many differing levels in the modern motor vehicle,just watch the heads going down when vehivles stop at Red Lights.......Text....Facebook...Twitter....the list is endless.
    I agree as I already suggested as the red-amber in the sequence gives a far clearer indication that the lights have changed, unlike the red - green sequence which can be missed in the blink of an eye, sometimes people are slow to notice that change.

    But the UK does have a problem with Amber Gamblers.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,681 ✭✭✭✭P_1


    ah here. no call for random acts of vandalism.

    True but when theres no enforcement what is someone left to do? Sometimes the mere threat of people taking the law into their own hands is enough to get the powers that be to take action


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  • P_1 wrote: »
    True but when theres no enforcement what is someone left to do? Sometimes the mere threat of people taking the law into their own hands is enough to get the powers that be to take action
    Look at France, even then tptb will only do the minimum to get the people to leave the streets.
    They are tolerating some remaining out because they will not comply with the protesters demands.


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