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NBA Regular Season & Playoffs 2018-19 Thread

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    #2222
    Angliru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 636 ✭✭✭Angliru


    Think a Playoff MVP should be a thing tbh. The way things are going and with load management about to become a huge thing I think we'll see it happen too.

    I mean Kawhi Leonard went from being criticised and laughed at for load management to putting in one of the best post seasons ever and almost everyone now saying he's the best player in the league. Stuff like that has to get noticed and I'm sure the league will start to reward that.


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    #2223
    Legion.
    Registered Users Posts: 401 ✭✭Legion.


    https://twitter.com/JustRyCole/status/1143552610168819712

    This is outrageous


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    #2224
    Morrison J
    Registered Users Posts: 3,849 ✭✭✭Morrison J


    Ah here, being the best player in the league over an 82 game season is a far more impressive and prestigious achievement than being the best player between two teams over a max of 7 games. Not even close.


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    #2225
    LuckyLloyd
    Registered Users Posts: 36,120 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    Hitch2222 wrote: »
    Then it should be open to a player who is the best in a given playoffs but that's not really the case.
    Kawhi this season was comfortably the finals MVP but LBJ has shown to be the best player in a number of series but he will never get it.

    IMO you can't assume a finals MVP is more prestigious if the only person who can win it comes from the winning team.

    2015 was probably the worst example of it, as much as Iggy had a great series like he always does.
    Morrison J wrote: »
    Ah here, being the best player in the league over an 82 game season is a far more impressive and prestigious achievement than being the best player between two teams over a max of 7 games. Not even close.

    Meh, the regular season is so bad the past few years, and all for logical reasons. Load management makes sense, but it means the better teams are conceding 5 - 10 games a year. A third of the league is aggressively tanking well before the trade deadline, and lazy sloppy team D is rife as the season wears on.

    You earn every stat in the playoffs, particularly the finals.


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    #2226
    Hitch2222
    Closed Accounts Posts: 507 ✭✭✭Hitch2222


    Blinky Plebum wrote: »
    Basketball is much less a team sport than most other team sports are, one player in basketball can have a much greater impact on proceedings than a great player in soccer,rugby,cricket,baseball etc can.

    Therefore the real value of a great player in basketball is leading teams to wins when it matters rather than putting up consistent performances across a whole season. Lebron James has proven this as he's spent a decent part of his career just coasting through the regular season.

    It's been clear for a few years now that teams aren't really taking the regular season that seriously and are saving themselves for the post season so the regular season being the basis for the MVP is not as big a deal as winning the finals MVP is in my opinion.

    Now with all due respect its very hard for me at least to understand how one goes from basketball is a sport which is centred upon the abilities of one player-a point I dont disagree with.

    To then decide that because of reliance on one player, the real value in their abilities exists in post season.
    Why does this reliance make the regular season less relevant ?

    Obviously the reliance on this players ability navigated them through the regular season. LBJ coasted in relative terms but not in absolute terms because his "coasting" was of such a high level that it didnt impact his teams ability to make it the post season.

    Yeah don't buy "teams don't take it seriously" stuff at all, there are about 2-3 teams every year who dont take the regular season particularly serious. LBJ teams-look how that worked out this year, GSW in recent years, anyone else?
    Even allowing for those, please explain to me how you can parse out when and when not teams are taking games seriously? How can you tell?

    Winning MVP is a big deal, players, fans, coaches etc value the award, its consistently used as a reference point when discussing and it is a major lifetime honour.


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    #2227
    Blinky Plebum
    Closed Accounts Posts: 314 ✭✭Blinky Plebum


    Hitch2222 wrote: »
    Now with all due respect its very hard for me at least to understand how one goes from basketball is a sport which is centred upon the abilities of one player-a point I dont disagree with.

    To then decide that because of reliance on one player, the real value in their abilities exists in post season.
    Why does this reliance make the regular season less relevant ?

    Obviously the reliance on this players ability navigated them through the regular season. LBJ coasted in relative terms but not in absolute terms because his "coasting" was of such a high level that it didnt impact his teams ability to make it the post season.

    Yeah don't buy "teams don't take it seriously" stuff at all, there are about 2-3 teams every year who dont take the regular season particularly serious. LBJ teams-look how that worked out this year, GSW in recent years, anyone else?
    Even allowing for those, please explain to me how you can parse out when and when not teams are taking games seriously? How can you tell?

    Winning MVP is a big deal, players, fans, coaches etc value the award, its consistently used as a reference point when discussing and it is a major lifetime honour.

    Playoffs are about star players, the bench is shorted and the best players play around 20% more minutes in the post season as they do in the regular season.Teams rely more on their best player in the post season than they do in the regular season.All opposition you face in the post season is fully motivated that is not the case in the regular season.

    Those Golden State and Lebron teams have been the ones winning championships in recent years.Toronto rested their best player for 25% of this season.The Spurs have been resting their players for years and their is constant discussion in the NBA media criticizing all the resting of players that takes places by a number of teams throughout the season.Teams clearly are holding back in the regular season.

    The regular season is just a qualification tournament for the playoffs.A loss in the reguallr season is no big deal, a loss in the playoffs is a big deal.

    The Award should be given it's full and proper Title : Regular Season MVP that's all it means. Kawhi Leonard was clearly the best player in the NBA this season.


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    #2228
    Hitch2222
    Closed Accounts Posts: 507 ✭✭✭Hitch2222


    Blinky Plebum wrote: »
    Playoffs are about star players, the bench is shorted and the best players play around 20% more minutes in the post season as they do in the regular season.Teams rely more on their best player in the post season than they do in the regular season.All opposition you face in the post season is fully motivated that is not the case in the regular season.

    Those Golden State and Lebron teams have been the ones winning championships in recent years.Toronto rested their best player for 25% of this season.The Spurs have been resting their players for years and their is constant discussion in the NBA media criticizing all the resting of players that takes places by a number of teams throughout the season.Teams clearly are holding back in the regular season.

    The regular season is just a qualification tournament for the playoffs.A loss in the reguallr season is no big deal, a loss in the playoffs is a big deal.

    The Award should be given it's full and proper Title : Regular Season MVP that's all it means. Kawhi Leonard was clearly the best player in the NBA this season.

    That's all fine but it didnt really answer my questions. I don't quite understand how the overreliance on a superstar in basketball during the post season suddenly makes their contribution during the regular season not quite as valuable.

    Teams do rely on their best player more in the playoffs but in the Raptors case Lowry, Gasol & Siakim also increased their production in the post season not just Kawhi.

    How can you tell teams aren't motivated in the regular season?

    Toronto rested Kawhi in large part due to injury recovery so that's a bad example. I suspect wherever KD ends up will do similar in a year.

    Yes teams rest players such as the Spurs but that doesn't mean they are resting players because they dont care about the regular season.
    They rest them because at the point they begin to do so, they feel their position is either solidified or will be solidified. It's not that they dismiss the regular season, rather they know that they perform better in multiple subsequent regular season games and/or perform better in the post season because their position is locked up.
    It's not dismissing the regular season, its just prudent.

    Yes and the group stages of the champions league is a qualifier as is round of 16, quarters, semis etc.
    A loss in the groups is no big deal, lots of opportunities to qualify?

    I'm pretty sure that is the title essentially, nobody is claiming otherwise.


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    #2229
    leggo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,061 ✭✭✭leggo


    Hitch2222 wrote: »
    MVP is meaningless?

    Come on now, winning an MVP is not meaningless, similar to winning a Ballon D'or. Its the highest individual honour in the sport.
    I'm all about championships in a team event and largely they supersede MVP, see Kobe, Kawhi & Shaq as examples of superstars who either never won or didnt win as many as their talent deserved but it's a massive stretch to call them meaningless.

    Ah look, it's obviously huge for players, it's a great honour and from a business perspective pretty much guarantees them the max for the rest of their prime (unless they have a freakish downfall like Derrick Rose). It'd be a weird set of circumstances for Giannis not to be the highest paid player on whatever team he plays for, and likely by a distance, from here on after winning it. It gave purpose to Russell Westbrook, it cemented James Harden's legacy, and so on.

    But, in terms of me getting hot over another team saying their star player should've won it? Nah, it's all pageantry from that perspective. For fans it exists for discussions like this and for the league its primary function is to drive talking points and investment in the product. So if you're a player? Yep, biggest deal ever, life-changing. For everyone else? Pretty meaningless insofar as who wins it.


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    #2230
    Blinky Plebum
    Closed Accounts Posts: 314 ✭✭Blinky Plebum


    Hitch2222 wrote: »
    That's all fine but it didnt really answer my questions. I don't quite understand how the overreliance on a superstar in basketball during the post season suddenly makes their contribution during the regular season not quite as valuable.

    Teams do rely on their best player more in the playoffs but in the Raptors case Lowry, Gasol & Siakim also increased their production in the post season not just Kawhi.

    How can you tell teams aren't motivated in the regular season?

    Toronto rested Kawhi in large part due to injury recovery so that's a bad example. I suspect wherever KD ends up will do similar in a year.

    Yes teams rest players such as the Spurs but that doesn't mean they are resting players because they dont care about the regular season.
    They rest them because at the point they begin to do so, they feel their position is either solidified or will be solidified. It's not that they dismiss the regular season, rather they know that they perform better in multiple subsequent regular season games and/or perform better in the post season because their position is locked up.
    It's not dismissing the regular season, its just prudent.

    Yes and the group stages of the champions league is a qualifier as is round of 16, quarters, semis etc.
    A loss in the groups is no big deal, lots of opportunities to qualify?

    I'm pretty sure that is the title essentially, nobody is claiming otherwise.


    It's obvious teams aren't motivated during the regular season, the margin for error is massive so they don't need to be. 16 out 30 teams qualify for the playoffs and about 5 or 6 teams every year seem to spend parts of the season deliberately trying the lose.1 loss in the group stages of the champions league and it's putting you at risk of elimination a last minute goal against Barcelona was the reason Spurs got through the group stages this year. 1 loss in a league in soccer can cause you to miss out on winning the championship,miss out on europe or cause relegation, this doesn't apply with the NBA regular season.


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    #2231
    Hitch2222
    Closed Accounts Posts: 507 ✭✭✭Hitch2222


    Blinky Plebum wrote: »
    It's obvious teams aren't motivated during the regular season, the margin for error is massive so they don't need to be. 16 out 30 teams qualify for the playoffs and about 5 or 6 teams every year seem to spend parts of the season deliberately trying the lose.1 loss in the group stages of the champions league and it's putting you at risk of elimination a last minute goal against Barcelona was the reason Spurs got through the group stages this year. 1 loss in a league in soccer can cause you to miss out on winning the championship,miss out on europe or cause relegation, this doesn't apply with the NBA regular season.

    I think there are very few teams afforded the luxury not to care. The competitiveness of the West in recent years have proved that.

    Also, I sincerely doubt there are too many players happy losing. Organisations see the value but I suspect players do not care about that given a large proportion are playing for their next contract. Organisations design teams usually young teams that will lose but nobody is happy doing that, they know fans-like 76ers- will eventually get to the point of revolt.

    You're right a loss in the CL is more detrimental to a teams chances but it's still a qualifier as is the regular season, plus goal difference & draws exist so playing to the end is generally worthwhile.
    What happens a team is mathematically gone, do they field their best team?
    No of course not but that doesn't mean they're trying to lose, the value in playing the team most likely to win diminishes as it does in a lot of NBA games given the binary nature of it.

    I dont believe teams have players who try to lose, that's been discussed for years and ex players with tanking teams have said that they never tried to lose.


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    #2232
    Hitch2222
    Closed Accounts Posts: 507 ✭✭✭Hitch2222


    I hope this becomes a regular segment, two of the best around



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    #2233
    kmart6
    Registered Users Posts: 15,172 ✭✭✭✭kmart6


    Well there goes the theory of taking the $30m+ to recuperate...

    https://twitter.com/wojespn/status/1143906064779362306?s=19


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    #2234
    Osmosis Jones
    Registered Users Posts: 19,527 ✭✭✭✭Osmosis Jones


    kmart6 wrote: »
    Well there goes the theory of taking the $30m+ to recuperate...

    https://twitter.com/wojespn/status/1143906064779362306?s=19

    Would have been insane to do that considering he's gonna get multiple 5 year max offers this summer anyway.


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    #2235
    Hitch2222
    Closed Accounts Posts: 507 ✭✭✭Hitch2222


    Osmosis Jones wrote: »
    Would have been insane to do that considering he's gonna get multiple 5 year max offers this summer anyway.

    Yeah people are happy to gamble a max on an injured Durant because in theory he's actually undervalued being paid that proportion relative to those who'll also get a max or close to.
    All he has to do is come back and be as productive as D'Angelo Russell for 4 years and it's about EV neutral.


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    #2236
    ButtersSuki
    Registered Users Posts: 53,028 ✭✭✭✭ButtersSuki


    Durant will still be offered a max by GS btw, declining the one year has nothing to do with that - it's not an indication one way or the other as to whether he's staying or going.


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    #2237
    LuckyLloyd
    Registered Users Posts: 36,120 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    Legion. wrote: »
    https://twitter.com/JustRyCole/status/1143552610168819712

    This is outrageous

    The Warriors really are an intensely dislikable organisation. Thank god they're finished for the foreseeable future. Maybe normal people will be able to go to the games again too!


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    #2238
    kmart6
    Registered Users Posts: 15,172 ✭✭✭✭kmart6


    Meh, that was a short clip from one of a million interviews he seems to have been doing the last week for his book, he has gone into more depth on it here saying it was on him. Of course people won't believe that and will just stick to their own narrative, he gave them an inch and they'll take a mile.


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    #2239
    Legion.
    Registered Users Posts: 401 ✭✭Legion.


    https://twitter.com/Raptors/status/1143991071321612288

    Excited to hear Kawhi's already recorded declaration that he's staying in Toronto, as seen in the last couple of seconds.


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    #2240
    kmart6
    Registered Users Posts: 15,172 ✭✭✭✭kmart6


    AD waiving his $4m trade kicker as expected.


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    #2241
    LuckyLloyd
    Registered Users Posts: 36,120 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    Hang on to your hats. Lakers have cleared space for a max. Kawhi is giving them a meeting.

    Meanwhile Woj reckons Kemba is going to Boston. Going to be a mad few days.
    kmart6 wrote: »
    Meh, that was a short clip from one of a million interviews he seems to have been doing the last week for his book, he has gone into more depth on it here saying it was on him. Of course people won't believe that and will just stick to their own narrative, he gave them an inch and they'll take a mile.

    We’ll see what KD does I guess.


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    #2242
    ButtersSuki
    Registered Users Posts: 53,028 ✭✭✭✭ButtersSuki


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    Hang on to your hats. Lakers have cleared space for a max. Kawhi is giving them a meeting.

    Oh yay.....


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    #2243
    ButtersSuki
    Registered Users Posts: 53,028 ✭✭✭✭ButtersSuki


    Magic - already the worst tweeter in the world - had some very “Magic” tweets this week. Amusing considering the context.


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    #2244
    LuckyLloyd
    Registered Users Posts: 36,120 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    Also it looks as if some of the reporting on the Lakers AD trade was incorrect / misleading. Apparently the lakers never intended to delay trade completion with NO, their intention was always to do a side deal to clear the room and AD had already intimated that he would waive the trade clause.

    That is significant, for it means they've known they'll have this space all summer and means their moves sit within a broader context. That doesn't mean they're getting Kawhi, but it also doesn't mean that they're panic dialling potential max FAs at the last minute. LeBron and AD will have had time to recruit people. One of Kawhi, Buckets or Kyrie is going to be a Laker imo.


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    #2245
    Hitch2222
    Closed Accounts Posts: 507 ✭✭✭Hitch2222


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    Also it looks as if some of the reporting on the Lakers AD trade was incorrect / misleading. Apparently the lakers never intended to delay trade completion with NO, their intention was always to do a side deal to clear the room and AD had already intimated that he would waive the trade clause.

    That is significant, for it means they've known they'll have this space all summer and means their moves sit within a broader context. That doesn't mean they're getting Kawhi, but it also doesn't mean that they're panic dialling potential max FAs at the last minute. LeBron and AD will have had time to recruit people. One of Kawhi, Buckets or Kyrie is going to be a Laker imo.

    I hope it's not Jimmy, I like him as a player and admire his defense but not interested in being locked into a combative guy who's a poor shooter, sketchy injury history and who's almost 30.

    Kawhi>Kyrie>collection of 8-12m role players>Jimmy/Russell


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    #2246
    LuckyLloyd
    Registered Users Posts: 36,120 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    Hitch2222 wrote: »
    I hope it's not Jimmy, I like him as a player and admire his defense but not interested in being locked into a combative guy who's a poor shooter, sketchy injury history and who's almost 30.

    Kawhi>Kyrie>collection of 8-12m role players>Jimmy/Russell

    And his D arguably is regressing already.

    I agree with your ordering in terms of priority but LeBron has form for adding a third max / near max guy as opposed to going with role players. Love wasn’t a great fit and neither would Butler but I reckon they’d rather do that nonetheless.


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    #2247
    Hitch2222
    Closed Accounts Posts: 507 ✭✭✭Hitch2222


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    And his D arguably is regressing already.

    I agree with your ordering in terms of priority but LeBron has form for adding a third max / near max guy as opposed to going with role players. Love wasn’t a great fit and neither would Butler but I reckon they’d rather do that nonetheless.

    That's true, I just looked, I had forgotten about Love's terrible extension, I thought maybe a buyout and he joins LBJ but what a terrible contract 29m through 2023, signed in 2018 :confused:


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    #2248
    LuckyLloyd
    Registered Users Posts: 36,120 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    Hitch2222 wrote: »
    That's true, I just looked, I had forgotten about Love's terrible extension, I thought maybe a buyout and he joins LBJ but what a terrible contract 29m through 2023, signed in 2018 :confused:

    He got everyone who went all the way with him on that run paid before he left. Tristan Thompson, Jr, Love and the likes of Jefferson et al got to tack on extra relevant years to their careers.

    Stuff like that - scoffed at by analysts from a basketball perspective - is why I wouldn’t be surprised to see Kawhi or Kyrie join him. I’d say there’s plenty of players out there with good things to say about him.


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    #2249
    LuckyLloyd
    Registered Users Posts: 36,120 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    The more interesting hypothetical is how might the Lakers spend 32m in cap space on non max guys?

    Davis
    LeBron
    Kuzma

    Who would you add?

    Rubio, Danny Green, Marcus Morris, Redick might be a good mix? Maybe you could get them all with longer deals?


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    #2250
    ButtersSuki
    Registered Users Posts: 53,028 ✭✭✭✭ButtersSuki


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    Also it looks as if some of the reporting on the Lakers AD trade was incorrect / misleading. Apparently the lakers never intended to delay trade completion with NO, their intention was always to do a side deal to clear the room and AD had already intimated that he would waive the trade clause.

    That is significant, for it means they've known they'll have this space all summer and means their moves sit within a broader context. That doesn't mean they're getting Kawhi, but it also doesn't mean that they're panic dialling potential max FAs at the last minute. LeBron and AD will have had time to recruit people. One of Kawhi, Buckets or Kyrie is going to be a Laker imo.

    Hope it’s Kyrie to watch him destroy them from within.....lol.

    Can’t see it being Leonard, think Kyrie is the most realistic of the 3 you’ve named as Butler looks like he’s off to Houston.


    On a broader note, the musical chairs is becoming a bit silly now.......


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    #2251
    LuckyLloyd
    Registered Users Posts: 36,120 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    ButtersSuki wrote: »
    On a broader note, the musical chairs is becoming a bit silly now.......

    Is it? This summer always loomed large on the horizon all through last season imo. Lot of talent becoming Free Agents at the same time and numerous teams that had cleared room to make the big move happen (like the two LA teams). Silly or not, it’s very exciting!

    2014 - 2019 saw just three teams account for the 10 finals appearances (GS 5, Cavs 4, North 1). Some new teams are going to emerge and the coming days is very exciting in the context of things being wide open for the first time in a while.

    I for one am reinvigorated!


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