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Changes in the GAA - super thread
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MayoAreMagic wrote: »If my county won the all Ireland by being placed into the position that Dublin are in now, I'd actually feel ashamed.
No, no you would not. A Mayo fan trying to take some sort of moral high ground considering how desperate they are to win an all Ireland would be ashamed is as much a ridiculous argument as the ostrich Dublin fans with their head in the sand.
You can still enjoy a win whilst acknowledging a huge advantage in every regard, but you shouldn't feel ashamed over it.0 -
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They never do acknowledge the advantages though, regardless of whether they should feel ashamed or not.
yes, I acknowledged as much...A Mayo fan .. to win an all Ireland would be ashamed is as much a ridiculous argument as the ostrich Dublin fans with their head in the sand.
I think most Dublin fans would acknowledge the advantages they have. However they shouldnt feel ashamed about it.0 -
No, no you would not. A Mayo fan trying to take some sort of moral high ground considering how desperate they are to win an all Ireland would be ashamed is as much a ridiculous argument as the ostrich Dublin fans with their head in the sand.
You can still enjoy a win whilst acknowledging a huge advantage in every regard, but you shouldn't feel ashamed over it.
Actually yes, yes I would, 100%, and rightly so.
Yes we are desperate to win an all Ireland. Not have one handed to us by the administrators. Let's leave our county biases to one side for a second and actually consider that.
Like that would actually be kinda pathetic - 'Ah lads, we know ye want to win one so much, here we will rig the thing so mayo get one'. I'd be ashamed if that was all my county could muster, ffs we do have some pride.
I don't think any self-respecting fans would view that as mayo going out and winning the thing fairly, and I don't think any gaa fan would take it seriously. It would be cringe worthy - forever remembered as the all Ireland that was given out as opposed to won.0 -
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MayoAreMagic wrote: »Actually yes, yes I would, 100%, and rightly so.
Yes we are desperate to win an all Ireland. Not have one handed to us by the administrators. Let's leave our county biases to one side for a second and actually consider that.
Like that would actually be kinda pathetic - 'Ah lads, we know ye want to win one so much, here we will rig the thing so mayo get one'. I'd be ashamed if that was all my county could muster, ffs we do have some pride.
I don't think any self-respecting fans would view that as mayo going out and winning the thing fairly, and I don't think any gaa fan would take it seriously. It would be cringe worthy - forever remembered as the all Ireland that was given out as opposed to won.
so you think that it is pathetic what Dublin have done, it has been rigged and their All Irelands have been given out and not won?
There is no doubt that Dublin have huge advantages, location, playing numbers, Croke Park, financial help, full time coaching in clubs, etc etc, a huge list. But they are a phenomenal team and no wins have been handed to them. They have taken these advantages and used them extremely well. They were given a crap load of money and didnt throw it down stupid ventures, they had clear defined plans that have worked very well.
Give an alternative angle, both Carlow and Offaly were part of a funding initiative (not nearly as big as Dublins one, but that's another story).
https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/hurling/offaly-set-for-funding-boost-in-bid-to-arrest-steady-decline-in-fortunes-30313697.html
Who do you think spent wisely here? Offaly were in decent shape then when they go this but have regressed terribly since, whereas Carlow have improved hugely. This is a comparison of how throwing money at something is not an automatic fix, it can be a huge advantage if used well, of that there is no doubt.
Pathetic, cringeworthy, self respecting fans, handed to us. But yet you want to leave county biases aside when talking about things when you say stuff like that? I'll leave you to it.0 -
so you think that it is pathetic what Dublin have done, it has been rigged and their All Irelands have been given out and not won?
There is no doubt that Dublin have huge advantages, location, playing numbers, Croke Park, financial help, full time coaching in clubs, etc etc, a huge list. But they are a phenomenal team and no wins have been handed to them. They have taken these advantages and used them extremely well. They were given a crap load of money and didnt throw it down stupid ventures, they had clear defined plans that have worked very well.
Give an alternative angle, both Carlow and Offaly were part of a funding initiative (not nearly as big as Dublins one, but that's another story).
https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/hurling/offaly-set-for-funding-boost-in-bid-to-arrest-steady-decline-in-fortunes-30313697.html
Who do you think spent wisely here? Offaly were in decent shape then when they go this but have regressed terribly since, whereas Carlow have improved hugely. This is a comparison of how throwing money at something is not an automatic fix, it can be a huge advantage if used well, of that there is no doubt.
Pathetic, cringeworthy, self respecting fans, handed to us. But yet you want to leave county biases aside when talking about things when you say stuff like that? I'll leave you to it.
I’ll give this thread another 10 posts before mods shut it down.0 -
so you think that it is pathetic what Dublin have done, it has been rigged and their All Irelands have been given out and not won?
There is no doubt that Dublin have huge advantages, location, playing numbers, Croke Park, financial help, full time coaching in clubs, etc etc, a huge list. But they are a phenomenal team and no wins have been handed to them. They have taken these advantages and used them extremely well. They were given a crap load of money and didnt throw it down stupid ventures, they had clear defined plans that have worked very well.
Give an alternative angle, both Carlow and Offaly were part of a funding initiative (not nearly as big as Dublins one, but that's another story).
https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/hurling/offaly-set-for-funding-boost-in-bid-to-arrest-steady-decline-in-fortunes-30313697.html
Who do you think spent wisely here? Offaly were in decent shape then when they go this but have regressed terribly since, whereas Carlow have improved hugely. This is a comparison of how throwing money at something is not an automatic fix, it can be a huge advantage if used well, of that there is no doubt.
Pathetic, cringeworthy, self respecting fans, handed to us. But yet you want to leave county biases aside when talking about things when you say stuff like that? I'll leave you to it.
So your response is to refuse to engage the conversation, go off on a big spiel about something else and then say you are leaving the thread.
Or, unfortunately, what we know know as the standard Dublin fan deflectionary response.
You won't engage because you know what I said is correct. Some different point about Carlow/offaly isn't relevant, but then that is why you mentioned it. The fact remains, if an all Ireland was rigged for my county to win, I would be ashamed that we needed that to happen. I'd rather lose 100 finals than accept it, because it wouldn't be a real all Ireland.
Also, as regards the money argument you tried to shoe-horn in. If you look at Dublins resources and the cash they are spending on top of that, be it earned or a handout, it becomes clear that they are in fact blowing far more money than anyone. Their returns, relative to the returns of their competitors, are actually very poor. Poor participation levels, poor returns, poor everything, and spending fortunes to do it. Of course, if you want to fudge it, you can directly compare them to counties with tiny fractions of their resources and try to kid yourself into thinking they are doing well, but you aren't comparing like with like. It is the scale that is making the difference there. If you compare it in a 'pound for pound' fashion, Dublin are in fact performing quite poorly. You are probably going to get offended by that, thinking it is some personal thing, but it isn't. That is in fact what you come to when you view the thing completly objectively and take everything on its merits. Anyway, beside the point.0 -
I’ll give this thread another 10 posts before mods shut it down.
It shouldn't really like. Nothing is being said that isn't reasonable. Sure what sports team would want a title handed to them? It's not a stretch to think nobody would. Isn't that the whole point of sport? If guys want to get upset by that then really and truly they are the ones spoiling the debate...0 -
MayoAreMagic wrote: »So your response is to refuse to engage the conversation, go off on a big spiel about something else and then say you are leaving the thread.
Or, unfortunately, what we know know as the standard Dublin fan deflectionary response.
You won't engage because you know what I said is correct. Some different point about Carlow/offaly isn't relevant, but then that is why you mentioned it. The fact remains, if an all Ireland was rigged for my county to win, I would be ashamed that we needed that to happen. I'd rather lose 100 finals than accept it, because it wouldn't be a real all Ireland.
Also, as regards the money argument you tried to shoe-horn in. If you look at Dublins resources and the cash they are spending on top of that, be it earned or a handout, it becomes clear that they are in fact blowing far more money than anyone. Their returns, relative to the returns of their competitors, are actually very poor. Poor participation levels, poor returns, poor everything, and spending fortunes to do it. Of course, if you want to fudge it, you can directly compare them to counties with tiny fractions of their resources and try to kid yourself into thinking they are doing well, but you aren't comparing like with like. It is the scale that is making the difference there. If you compare it in a 'pound for pound' fashion, Dublin are in fact performing quite poorly. You are probably going to get offended by that, thinking it is some personal thing, but it isn't. That is in fact what you come to when you view the thing completly objectively and take everything on its merits. Anyway, beside the point.
I'm not refusing to engage the point, the point was made and I'm not going to get in a tit for tat with someone who tries to claim they are being objective and completely argue opposite.
As another aside, I am not from Dublin nor a fan of Dublin. However I can be objective about them and do not like the clear financial advantage the GAA give them but can acknowledge the great work they are doing and admire their football team who are full of great players.
The reason I said I'll leave you to it as the argument will go absolutely no where with you and I have no desire to argue with you for ages over absolutely nothing. You at least deserve my reason as to why I wont respond any further.0 -
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I'm not refusing to engage the point, the point was made and I'm not going to get in a tit for tat with someone who tries to claim they are being objective and completely argue opposite.
As another aside, I am not from Dublin nor a fan of Dublin. However I can be objective about them and do not like the clear financial advantage the GAA give them but can acknowledge the great work they are doing and admire their football team who are full of great players.
The reason I said I'll leave you to it as the argument will go absolutely no where with you and I have no desire to argue with you for ages over absolutely nothing. You at least deserve my reason as to why I wont respond any further.
And I'm simply pointing out that if you actually examine the figures, while the work they are doing might look great when compared to amateur counties with 1/10th of their population and an even smaller fraction of their finances, on its own merits, it is a poor return...0 -
I think it is fair to say the Munster Championship was never fully alive to begin with.
130 Years Running, Kerry have won 80 of them.
Between Cork and Kerry they have won all but 1 of the last 83 Munster titles.
Munster has not been anything except a toss up between Kerry and Cork in almost a century.
I'm never sure why this is presented as a response to Dublin dominating Leinster, I mean, why exactly would be good to emulate the one horse race that is the Munster football championship?
My county used to look at Munster with envy, knowing that if we were down there we would probably have won a few titles and being jealous of Kerry cantering to the later stages every year.
Waterford, Limerick, Clare, Tipp, most years they have no hope and they know it, this shouldn't be held up as an excuse for Dublin to do the same, it should be held up as an example of what the GAA really doesn't want happening!0 -
MayoAreMagic wrote: »So your response is to refuse to engage the conversation, go off on a big spiel about something else and then say you are leaving the thread.
Or, unfortunately, what we know know as the standard Dublin fan deflectionary response.
You won't engage because you know what I said is correct. Some different point about Carlow/offaly isn't relevant, but then that is why you mentioned it. The fact remains, if an all Ireland was rigged for my county to win, I would be ashamed that we needed that to happen. I'd rather lose 100 finals than accept it, because it wouldn't be a real all Ireland.
Also, as regards the money argument you tried to shoe-horn in. If you look at Dublins resources and the cash they are spending on top of that, be it earned or a handout, it becomes clear that they are in fact blowing far more money than anyone. Their returns, relative to the returns of their competitors, are actually very poor. Poor participation levels, poor returns, poor everything, and spending fortunes to do it. Of course, if you want to fudge it, you can directly compare them to counties with tiny fractions of their resources and try to kid yourself into thinking they are doing well, but you aren't comparing like with like. It is the scale that is making the difference there. If you compare it in a 'pound for pound' fashion, Dublin are in fact performing quite poorly. You are probably going to get offended by that, thinking it is some personal thing, but it isn't. That is in fact what you come to when you view the thing completly objectively and take everything on its merits. Anyway, beside the point.
He pointed to the example of Carlow also using money well and improving their county teams in both football and hurling. In contrast, he used Offaly (in truth he could have used Mayo), who have also got funding and seen no success.
The Dublin county board have been examplary in the way that they used the money they had to give every kid in the county the chance to play our national games. As a Dub, I am more proud of that than of any All-Ireland. Shame is for those who waste money on the elite players.
As for administrators handing out All-Irelands, I assume you want to take back most of Kerry's? In a one and a half-county province at best for a century where they were more or less given automatic entry into the last four, they took full advantage of the administrative structure.0 -
bucketybuck wrote: »I'm never sure why this is presented as a response to Dublin dominating Leinster, I mean, why exactly would be good to emulate the one horse race that is the Munster football championship?
My county used to look at Munster with envy, knowing that if we were down there we would probably have won a few titles and being jealous of Kerry cantering to the later stages every year.
Waterford, Limerick, Clare, Tipp, most years they have no hope and they know it, this shouldn't be held up as an excuse for Dublin to do the same, it should be held up as an example of what the GAA really doesn't want happening!
The point being made is that if some are arguing that there is a lack of sheen on Dublin's success because of standards in Leinster, it must also apply to around 25 of Kerry's wins.0 -
The point being made is that if some are arguing that there is a lack of sheen on Dublin's success because of standards in Leinster, it must also apply to around 25 of Kerry's wins.
Sheer whataboutery then?
Made even worse by the fact that, well, yeah, of course such a thing gives Kerrys dominance a lack of sheen, it always has. Criticism of Kerry's 3 games to win an all-ireland was a thing long before Dublin ever got their act together.0 -
He pointed to the example of Carlow also using money well and improving their county teams in both football and hurling. In contrast, he used Offaly (in truth he could have used Mayo), who have also got funding and seen no success.
The Dublin county board have been examplary in the way that they used the money they had to give every kid in the county the chance to play our national games. As a Dub, I am more proud of that than of any All-Ireland. Shame is for those who waste money on the elite players.
As for administrators handing out All-Irelands, I assume you want to take back most of Kerry's? In a one and a half-county province at best for a century where they were more or less given automatic entry into the last four, they took full advantage of the administrative structure.
I suppose that depends on what you deem success. Carlow have seen no success as far as I can see, whereas I would consider mayo to be, pound for pound the second, or there or there abouts, most successful county in recent times, behind kerry. I don't count Dublin there because of the financial doping.
You don't seem to realise that every child in most counties get the chance to play football. That isn't exemplary, it is bog standard, and they didn't need to spend exponentially to achieve it. You think that is good administration? To take millions extra to do what others already do? It only highlights how little you actually know about the gaa in the country.
Re elite players, Dublin spend more per game on their top team than anyone, every single year without fail.
Kerry started with the same resources as most teams in munster/Ireland. They got no extra handouts, no financial doping, no extra games at home. They earned their success and nobody has come near to challenging their record. So no, their record is unblemished and they will be remembered that way in the future.0 -
MayoAreMagic wrote: »I suppose that depends on what you deem success. Carlow have seen no success as far as I can see, whereas I would consider mayo to be, pound for pound the second, or there or there abouts, most successful county in recent times, behind kerry. I don't count Dublin there because of the financial doping.
You don't seem to realise that every child in most counties get the chance to play football. That isn't exemplary, it is bog standard, and they didn't need to spend exponentially to achieve it. You think that is good administration? To take millions extra to do what others already do? It only highlights how little you actually know about the gaa in the country.
Re elite players, Dublin spend more per game on their top team than anyone, every single year without fail.
Kerry started with the same resources as most teams in munster/Ireland. They got no extra handouts, no financial doping, no extra games at home. They earned their success and nobody has come near to challenging their record. So no, their record is unblemished and they will be remembered that way in the future.
Thank you for making the case most eloquently for the development funding that Dublin has received since 2005 with the sentences in bold.
Because of rapid urbansiation, immigration, population growth, lack of facilities etc., there was a clear case in 2005 that what was common in the rest of the country - every child getting the chance to play football - was missing in Dublin and that funding was required to remedy this situation. Hence funding was provided.
If you could make the case that Mayo or Kerry or some other county was not in a position to offer every child the chance to play football, then the same argument could be made for funding. If you could follow that up with a concrete plan to demonstrate how that would work, you would have a decent chance of winning that argument.0 -
Thank you for making the case most eloquently for the development funding that Dublin has received since 2005 with the sentences in bold.
Because of rapid urbansiation, immigration, population growth, lack of facilities etc., there was a clear case in 2005 that what was common in the rest of the country - every child getting the chance to play football - was missing in Dublin and that funding was required to remedy this situation. Hence funding was provided.
If you could make the case that Mayo or Kerry or some other county was not in a position to offer every child the chance to play football, then the same argument could be made for funding. If you could follow that up with a concrete plan to demonstrate how that would work, you would have a decent chance of winning that argument.
Sorry, are you trying to suggest that increased population is a factor for requiring funding? Because anywhere else it is seen as an opportunity to expand and generate your own funding...
In the same breath are you trying to make an argument <b>against</b> rural Ireland with immigration?
As regards opportunities for kids, Dublin is set up to offer far more, with far less obstacles in doing so, than any other county.
All of that is without any funding coming I to play.
That response is embarrassingly poorly informed.0 -
MayoAreMagic wrote: »Sorry, are you trying to suggest that increased population is a factor for requiring funding? Because anywhere else it is seen as an opportunity to expand and generate your own funding...
In the same breath are you trying to make an argument <b>against</b> rural Ireland with immigration?
As regards opportunities for kids, Dublin is set up to offer far more, with far less obstacles in doing so, than any other county.
All of that is without any funding coming I to play.
That response is embarrassingly poorly informed.
Yes, increased population does create a need for extra funding. If the population of X county increases by 20% and the existing GAA infrastructure in the form of clubs, pitches etc. can't cope with the increased number of kids playing the game, then you need developmental funding. Once the seed funding is in place to introduce and develop the game in those new areas has succeeded, then the funding settles down into a more normal pattern with a similar per capita funding arrangement.
That is exactly what happened with Dublin, with the developmental funding levelling off and decreasing in recent years.0 -
Yes, increased population does create a need for extra funding. If the population of X county increases by 20% and the existing GAA infrastructure in the form of clubs, pitches etc. can't cope with the increased number of kids playing the game, then you need developmental funding. Once the seed funding is in place to introduce and develop the game in those new areas has succeeded, then the funding settles down into a more normal pattern with a similar per capita funding arrangement.
That is exactly what happened with Dublin, with the developmental funding levelling off and decreasing in recent years.
If there are an influx of extra kids then there will be an influx of extra coaches, extra volunteers and extra money from collections etc. That is called club growth. I have yet to see a club struggle because they have grown their population base. It makes them money, it doesnt cost them money. What you are saying doesn't make any sense. The only way it would make sense is if the club had to pay coaches because their members couldn't be arsed to volunteer, I.e. the club was dysfunctional.
This wasn't what happened in Dublin.
What occurred in dublin was the people weren't interested in the sport. So the gaa and the government directed specialised funding to try to change that. It was basically a gaa bailout.
It is actually quite ironic when you now hear Dublin fans say things like, well all teams can't be the same, there is going to be a natural order, when trying to justify their artificial position. If things were actually left to the natural order, Dublin would likely have no all Irelands since 1995...0 -
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MayoAreMagic wrote: »If there are an influx of extra kids then there will be an influx of extra coaches, extra volunteers and extra money from collections etc. That is called club growth. I have yet to see a club struggle because they have grown their population base. It makes them money, it doesnt cost them money. What you are saying doesn't make any sense. The only way it would make sense is if the club had to pay coaches because their members couldn't be arsed to volunteer, I.e. the club was dysfunctional.
This wasn't what happened in Dublin.
What occurred in dublin was the people weren't interested in the sport. So the gaa and the government directed specialised funding to try to change that. It was basically a gaa bailout.
It is actually quite ironic when you now hear Dublin fans say things like, well all teams can't be the same, there is going to be a natural order, when trying to justify their artificial position. If things were actually left to the natural order, Dublin would likely have no all Irelands since 1995...
Given you are from Mayo, I wouldn't expect you to have seen a club struggle because they have grown their population base.
Once again, at the end, you return to the wrong thing. The development funding was to help all kinds of kids get interested and playing gaelic games, girls, boys, fat ones, thin ones, tall ones, short ones, those with special needs etc. All you can see is whether it delivered All-Irelands.0 -
Given you are from Mayo, I wouldn't expect you to have seen a club struggle because they have grown their population base.
Once again, at the end, you return to the wrong thing. The development funding was to help all kinds of kids get interested and playing gaelic games, girls, boys, fat ones, thin ones, tall ones, short ones, those with special needs etc. All you can see is whether it delivered All-Irelands.
Yes I haven't. Explain how it works...
You get more kids, and their membership fees, more parents volunteering their time, and money, a broader base for sales of club tickets etc, and an all round more profitable, healthier club. And this is a cost on the club, somehow... You can maybe take up explaining it from there...0 -
MayoAreMagic wrote: »Yes I haven't. Explain how it works...
You get more kids, and their membership fees, more parents volunteering their time, and money, a broader base for sales of club tickets etc, and an all round more profitable, healthier club. And this is a cost on the club, somehow... You can maybe take up explaining it from there...
Castleknock didn't exist in 1997.
Westmanstown Gaels only started in 2005.
That is only in one part of the county. Similar stories all over the county.
Exponential growth doesn't work as smoothly as your model.0 -
Castleknock didn't exist in 1997.
Westmanstown Gaels only started in 2005.
That is only in one part of the county. Similar stories all over the county.
Exponential growth doesn't work as smoothly as your model.
Doesnt really explain it though does it? Because I'm pretty sure, every club in the country, both inside and outside Dublin, started at some point. Did they all get a shedload of money to do so? No.
So you aren't making any sense with that explanation.
To clarify for you, you need to identify how expansion of numbers, costs money, and also, does so in the capital only, and not in any of all the other clubs in every other county, which thereby justifies the large payments...
Next attempt please...0 -
MayoAreMagic wrote: »Doesnt really explain it though does it? Because I'm pretty sure, every club in the country, both inside and outside Dublin, started at some point. Did they all get a shedload of money to do so? No.
So you aren't making any sense with that explanation.
To clarify for you, you need to identify how expansion of numbers, costs money, and also, does so in the capital only, and not in any of all the other clubs in every other county, which thereby justifies the large payments...
Next attempt please...
I have explained it already. Population explosion, no tradition of playing the games, expansion into new areas etc. Not going to explain it again just because you won't accept it.0 -
In fairness, the logical conclusion of population explosion, exponential growth, new clubs forming and expansion into new areas, is also expansion at the top of the tree as well as the bottom.
Another county team in other words.0 -
I have explained it already. Population explosion, no tradition of playing the games, expansion into new areas etc. Not going to explain it again just because you won't accept it.
Your explanation was completly disproven though. Expanding membership of a club creates more wealth in the club. If what you were saying was correct then surely, by extension, the expansion of dublin gaa would in fact be costing the gaa money, would it not? Any fool can see that this isnt the case.
You can keep repeating it all you want. It doesnt make it true. Anyone with a bit if cop on can see it is just a load of old waffle from a biased fan who just doesnt want to admit to anything that might potentially lessen his own counties achievements, regardless of it being in fact accurate.
You'd rather push a lie than have an open and fair conversation about the reality.0 -
bucketybuck wrote: »In fairness, the logical conclusion of population explosion, exponential growth, new clubs forming and expansion into new areas, is also expansion at the top of the tree as well as the bottom.
Another county team in other words.
This is the point where the likes of blanch will stop peddling the province argument, and peddle the county argument.
Basically to sum up in short, the argument is they want dublin funded as a province but to compete as a county...0 -
MayoAreMagic wrote: »Basically to sum up in short, the argument is they want Dublin funded as a province but to compete as a county...
Sounds reasonable. What's the issue?0 -
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