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Proposed suckler cow subsidy

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Comments

  • #2
    wrangler
    Registered Users Posts: 11,055 ✭✭✭✭wrangler


    blue5000 wrote: »
    The comic wants to save our sucklers
    https://www.change.org/p/save-our-sucklers-open-letter-from-the-readers-of-the-irish-farmers-journal?recruiter=88210484&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=copylink&utm_campaign=psf_combo_share_more.undefined.nafta_petition_show_share_buttons.control

    good to see you signed it, :D at least someone on here agrees with me


  • #3
    Willfarman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,239 ✭✭✭Willfarman


    For just as little one euro a week you could help save the life of a suckler cow and save its owner from a life of destitution and friesian bullock ownership.. and ensure a steady stream of revenue to those bastions of society the beef barons!!


  • #4
    wrangler
    Registered Users Posts: 11,055 ✭✭✭✭wrangler


    Willfarman wrote: »
    For just as little one euro a week you could help save the life of a suckler cow and save its owner from a life of destitution and friesian bullock ownership.. and ensure a steady stream of revenue to those bastions of society the beef barons!!

    Can't understand the difference you see in a steady stream of ould friesians and the same stream good quality suckler stock, processors'll have the numbers anyway.
    There's no one queuing to process our beef, it's like the land now, any farm/factory that closes now is divided by the big boys, we're /I'm lucky to have them, I certainly won't be complaining about the barons in farming or processing either


  • #5
    blue5000
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,616 Mod ✭✭✭✭blue5000


    Willfarman wrote: »
    For just as little one euro a week you could help save the life of a suckler cow and save its owner from a life of destitution and friesian bullock ownership.. and ensure a steady stream of revenue to those bastions of society the beef barons!!

    I'm just after getting an email that by sharing the yoke above I influenced 4 ppl to sign the petition, one of them, I kid you not is a large beef processor. I think any country in the world can produce holstein x beef, but we are the only country in the N hemisphere still able to produce quality beef in large exportable quantities. The processors know this, they need the suckler cow to survive as much as we do. Rant over, apologies OP for the side track.

    I suggest a mix of beef heifer calves and fr bulls from the dairy neighbours. You can always put the best heifers in calf down the road, while you have fr bulls to sell while waiting for sucklers to come on stream.

    If the seat's wet, sit on yer hat, a cool head is better than a wet ar5e.



  • #6
    Say my name
    Registered Users Posts: 11,043 ✭✭✭✭Say my name


    blue5000 wrote: »
    I'm just after getting an email that by sharing the yoke above I influenced 4 ppl to sign the petition, one of them, I kid you not is a large beef processor. I think any country in the world can produce holstein x beef, but we are the only country in the N hemisphere still able to produce quality beef in large exportable quantities. The processors know this, they need the suckler cow to survive as much as we do. Rant over, apologies OP for the side track.

    I suggest a mix of beef heifer calves and fr bulls from the dairy neighbours. You can always put the best heifers in calf down the road, while you have fr bulls to sell while waiting for sucklers to come on stream.

    My father do be giving out about the my farming week part in the journal.
    This week was no different with the part time farmer with dexters and the wife with a good job.
    His complaint is when are they going to have some real farmers in the section and where are they getting these hobby farmers from?

    It's not PC. But there you go.

    He can't be the only one thinking this.


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  • #7
    Muckit
    Registered Users Posts: 11,174 ✭✭✭✭Muckit


    Say my name wrote: »
    My father do be giving out about the my farming week part in the journal.
    This week was no different with the part time farmer with dexters and the wife with a good job.
    His complaint is when are they going to have some real farmers in the section and where are they getting these hobby farmers from?

    It's not PC. But there you go.

    He can't be the only one thinking this.

    The realty is that the IFJ are playing to their audience. The more hobby farmers, the bigger their readership. If everyone was fulltime, the numbers would reduce drastically and they would be gone. The small farmer keeps many people in jobs in this country.


  • #8
    wrangler
    Registered Users Posts: 11,055 ✭✭✭✭wrangler


    Muckit wrote: »
    The realty is that the IFJ are playing to their audience. The more hobby farmers, the bigger their readership. If everyone was fulltime, the numbers would reduce drastically and they would be gone. The small farmer keeps many people in jobs in this country.

    Hence the need to keep the suckler cow where she is, .......and of course keep her profitable.,
    Journal is doing well and investing back into rural communities, win win so


  • #9
    Willfarman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,239 ✭✭✭Willfarman


    Environmental schemes and encouraging more extensive type suckler herds would have a far better chance of having a positive affect. I think this nonsense has more to with Ifa levies than anything else..


  • #10
    CloughCasey1
    Registered Users Posts: 2,741 ✭✭✭CloughCasey1


    I dont get it.
    Why would a lad keep a 700 kg cow that eats more than a store and rear a middling calf that gets €800 in the mart and then has the hand out for the €200 needed to get to the magic €1000 mark???????
    If he bred the right stock and had the clue and cop on of a decent business man and produced shapey export type weanlings he could keep the cap on his head and not looking for it to be filled.
    Farming is a fecking business not a right.
    I probably am going to get a pasting for even saying the above but i dont give a toss. Is the definition of insanity not doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results?? Or am i misssing the trick here entirely?


  • #11
    Bass Reeves
    Registered Users Posts: 18,142 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    Lets us just look closely at what the IFJ, the IFA and Teagasc are pushing for. The suggest we subsidise a system that is inherently unprofitable and with the subsidy will continue to be unprofitable in a vast amount of the country. Why are they doing this, because they want to want to keep numbers up for readers, leavies and clients.

    Lets take the FJ first this is just the tip of the iceberg they are also lobbying ti increase the grid differencial to 8c/kg. which will reduce the beef price on about 60% of cattle being slaughtered, make no difference to 25-30% and increase the value of 10% of the cattle.

    For the suckler farmers in the west of Ireland's new friend the IFA that is completly against reorganisation of the cap. It is the same organisation that allowed a GLAS system that is hard on commage farmers and tough on west of Ireland farmer in particular. By lobbing for a watered down reps 10 years ago they have allowed larger farmers to plunder these funds. It lobby's for a suckler subsidy but will not lobby for producer groups legislation. A fair GlAS, a leveling of BPS rates, a flat rate greening and producer groups would all be much more benefical to any type of west of Ireland farmer rather than a miserable SC subsidy. to the average farmer what will it be worth 2-3K. and committed like at present with the cow welfare to keep cows that maybe losing you money thereby forcing you to farm unprofitable.

    And we come to Teagasc that is being now funded by Pillar two funds and not happy with that they are illegally charging for membership of discussion groups.

    We can do nothing about the amount of calves that come off dairy herds. I mean nothing these herds will produce a product that is competitive to finish. At present for the first time in 8-10 years the Continental beef market is returning a good price for heavy better type carcasses. Along with a UK market that is returning a decent price for the last 10 years alone. The UK market requires lighter carcasses in the 280-330kg bracket ideally. But for how long will this be the case in the case of central european prices.

    Yet we have a processing industry that continues to pay at the lower end for out product and will use any excuse to force down prices to increase there profitability. Larry Goodman's net worth went up 40 million last year not all because of AIBP but backed by it ability to generate massive profits.

    These are the people lobbying for an SC subsidy that will continue to force and encourage farmer to farm at a loss. Wake up and smell the coffee. Blue you are incorrect about any country can produce dairy cross beef. Most cannot as there dairy system is based on an indoor extreme HO system where cows have a 2 lactation lifespan and must continuely be bred to HO bulls to produce replacements and a large porportion of these calves will be either used to produce veal or go the young bull beef route. France, Italy and Spain etc have larger continental based suckler herds than us. There are over 12 million suckler cows in the EU believe it or not....... It is projected that this will decline by about 1 million cows along with a general reduction in beef production.

    The market forces in Ireland are deciding what way the market goes. Larger suckler and tillage farmers that see themselves in a low margin business are deciding to change to dairying. Dairy herds are maturing and the glut of Fr bulls is reducing. Yes at present we may have an issue with the quality of some of the beef bulls being used in dairy herds but market forces will sort that out over time. The best way to make a fool of yourself is to continue to do the same thing and expect a different result.

    Slava Ukrainii



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  • #12
    wrangler
    Registered Users Posts: 11,055 ✭✭✭✭wrangler


    Willfarman wrote: »
    Environmental schemes and encouraging more extensive type suckler herds would have a far better chance of having a positive affect. I think this nonsense has more to with Ifa levies than anything else..


    Do you think that any farmer going to Dublin to meetings gives a sh..e about the levies or the funding of the Organisation. I hate to burst your bubble but they don't.
    There's a strong message coming from farmers that they need a subsidy and that's what the county reps will prioritise.
    Then CC comes on and claims that €200 subsidy will preclude them from breeding €1000 weanlings,.....You couldn't make it up.
    5000 signatures is good enough support to ensure a subsidy is wanted


  • #13
    CloughCasey1
    Registered Users Posts: 2,741 ✭✭✭CloughCasey1


    wrangler wrote: »
    Do you think that any farmer going to Dublin to meetings gives a sh..e about the levies or the funding of the Organisation. I hate to burst your bubble but they don't.
    There's a strong message coming from farmers that they need a subsidy and that's what the county reps will prioritise.
    Then CC comes on and claims that €200 subsidy will preclude them from breeding €1000 weanlings,.....You couldn't make it up.
    5000 signatures is good enough support to ensure a subsidy is wanted

    Put your glasses on old man and read my post again.


  • #14
    wrangler
    Registered Users Posts: 11,055 ✭✭✭✭wrangler


    CloughCasey1 wrote: »
    Put your glasses on old man and read my post again.

    I've read the post right,
    And won't you have the cap out next may for your subsidy as well, probably, like a lot of drystock farmers, an above average subsidy as well.
    Rural Ireland needs sucklers, and suckler cows needs to be subsidised.


  • #15
    CloughCasey1
    Registered Users Posts: 2,741 ✭✭✭CloughCasey1


    wrangler wrote: »
    I've read the post right,
    And won't you have the cap out next may for your subsidy as well, probably, like a lot of drystock farmers, an above average subsidy as well.
    Rural Ireland needs sucklers, and suckler cows needs to be subsidised.

    Dont get a penny.☺
    And making a few bob.
    You dont know what preclude means so.


  • #16
    Bass Reeves
    Registered Users Posts: 18,142 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    wrangler wrote: »
    Do you think that any farmer going to Dublin to meetings gives a sh..e about the levies or the funding of the Organisation. I hate to burst your bubble but they don't.
    There's a strong message coming from farmers that they need a subsidy and that's what the county reps will prioritise.
    Then CC comes on and claims that €200 subsidy will preclude them from breeding €1000 weanlings,.....You couldn't make it up.
    5000 signatures is good enough support to ensure a subsidy is wanted
    wrangler wrote: »
    I've read the post right,
    And won't you have the cap out next may for your subsidy as well, probably, like a lot of drystock farmers, an above average subsidy as well.
    Rural Ireland needs sucklers, and suckler cows needs to be subsidised.

    No you did not read the post right. this is not the first or second time you missread a post to serve up you own propganda. CC did not claim that a 200 euro subsidy will preclude lads from producing better weanlings. He highlighted the fact that lots of suckler farmers producing calves at a loss rather than producing a calf that is suitable for the export market to solve there issue now have there hand out for a subsidy.

    On the assertian that 5K signatures are enough to support for a subsidy and IFA being driven by CC. What proper representive organisation will lobby for a subsidy in this case that has huge negative connotations for the wider drystock industry. But then we are taking about the IFA and logic and commonsense is not part of it remit

    Slava Ukrainii



  • #17
    wrangler
    Registered Users Posts: 11,055 ✭✭✭✭wrangler


    CloughCasey1 wrote: »
    Dont get a penny.☺
    And making a few bob.
    You dont know what preclude means so.

    preclude....prevent from happening; make impossible.


  • #18
    CloughCasey1
    Registered Users Posts: 2,741 ✭✭✭CloughCasey1


    wrangler wrote: »
    preclude....prevent from happening; make impossible.

    Well done .

    If the suckler men want a sub let them go to Larry and co and let it be for u and e grade cattle. If they are not producing to that level they are at nothing.


  • #19
    wrangler
    Registered Users Posts: 11,055 ✭✭✭✭wrangler


    Bass Reeves wrote: »
    No you did not read the post right. this is not the first or second time you missread a post to serve up you own propganda. CC did not claim that a 200 euro subsidy will preclude lads from producing better weanlings. He highlighted the fact that lots of suckler farmers producing calves at a loss rather than producing a calf that is suitable for the export market to solve there issue now have there hand out for a subsidy.

    On the assertian that 5K signatures are enough to support for a subsidy and IFA being driven by CC. What proper representive organisation will lobby for a subsidy in this case that has huge negative connotations for the wider drystock industry. But then we are taking about the IFA and logic and commonsense is not part of it remit

    No you're talking about farmers representing farmers and trying to deliver what's needed. Make the €200/cow available and give the farmers the choice to avail or not,
    or Do you think you're the messiah to save farmers from themselves because I think you're implying that's what IFAs role should be
    I thought the same as you about the ewe subsidy....delighted with it now.
    I wouldn't oppose it anyway, there's farmers needed it worse than I did.
    Anyway It's probably not going to happen, Creed won't be in charge and neither will the present Government so they can promise what they like.
    Journal is right to appeal to Europe, our guys will drive it on there


  • #20
    wrangler
    Registered Users Posts: 11,055 ✭✭✭✭wrangler


    CloughCasey1 wrote: »
    Well done .

    If the suckler men want a sub let them go to Larry and co and let it be for u and e grade cattle. If they are not producing to that level they are at nothing.

    No matter what level you're at in Drystock, you could say the same


  • #21
    CloughCasey1
    Registered Users Posts: 2,741 ✭✭✭CloughCasey1


    wrangler wrote: »
    No matter what level you're at in Drystock, you could say the same

    Im not looking for any handout for my o's and r's


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  • #22
    CloughCasey1
    Registered Users Posts: 2,741 ✭✭✭CloughCasey1


    wrangler wrote: »
    No you're talking about farmers representing farmers and trying to deliver what's needed. Make the €200/cow available and give the farmers the choice to avail or not,
    or Do you think you're the messiah to save farmers from themselves because I think you're implying that's what IFAs role should be
    I thought the same as you about the ewe subsidy....delighted with it now.
    I wouldn't oppose it anyway, there's farmers needed it worse than I did.
    Anyway It's probably not going to happen, Creed won't be in charge and neither will the present Government so they can promise what they like.
    Journal is right to appeal to Europe, our guys will drive it on there

    You are a mighty man dor putting words in lads mouths!!


  • #23
    Buford T. Justice XIX
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,633 ✭✭✭✭Buford T. Justice XIX


    Mod note: moved from the 'Opinions, please thread'

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057831389

    And keep it civil please, folks!

    Buford T. Justice


  • #24
    blue5000
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,616 Mod ✭✭✭✭blue5000


    I think we need to step back a bit and try look at the bigger picture. Why aren't sucklers profitable?

    IMO it's inefficient to produce 0.79 calves/cow on average per year.
    It's inefficient to have to feed 7-800kg cows that only produce a weanling of 250-300kg.
    It's inefficient trying to produce export quality weanlings where the vet bills are building up year to year because of calving difficulties.

    Blue you are incorrect about any country can produce dairy cross beef. Most cannot as there dairy system is based on an indoor extreme HO system where cows have a 2 lactation lifespan and must continuely be bred to HO bulls to produce replacements and a large porportion of these calves will be either used to produce veal or go the young bull beef route. France, Italy and Spain etc have larger continental based suckler herds than us. There are over 12 million suckler cows in the EU believe it or not.....

    Bass I think you missed what I was trying to say, the point I was trying to make was that we can still export large quantities of quality beef, where do you think all those 4 yr old cull cows end up? I'll tell you where, on someone's plate as a meatball/burger/as a mini steak. It's happening here too, with cull cows going straight from the mart to the factory. France (66.9m), Italy(60.6m) and Spain (46.5m) might have more suckler cows than us, but the human population in these countries is a lot bigger than ours (4.7m) too.
    In 2015 there were just over 1m suckler cows in Ireland, here is a eurostat for number of animals in each country http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/File:Livestock_population,_2016_(million_head).png

    In Ireland
    we have 4.7m people and 6.6m cattle
    France has 66.9m people and 19m cattle
    Spain has 46.5m people and 6.28m cattle
    Italy has 60.6m people and 6.3m cattle

    This is where our beef (and dairy) exports come from.


    I bet the French have found a nice big loophole to subsidise their suckler cows.

    If the seat's wet, sit on yer hat, a cool head is better than a wet ar5e.



  • #25
    K.G.
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 3,034 Mod ✭✭✭✭K.G.


    Daftest thing ive ever heard.why not just give straight to larry.nevermind from an emissions point of view.looking at journal every week and seeing some of taxpayers money already wasted on buildings for suckers that makes no sense on hobby farms.if any crowd should get a sub its the tillage men considering the battering they ve taken and their importance nationally.lets face it 90 %of suckler farmers could jack it in the morning and it would make little difference to their standard of living as they have jobs.


  • #26
    coolshannagh28
    Registered Users Posts: 1,476 ✭✭✭coolshannagh28


    In a subsidised system it is imperative to maximise subsidy , if the Govt/EU is willing to pay a subsidy take it.


  • #27
    wrangler
    Registered Users Posts: 11,055 ✭✭✭✭wrangler


    Bass Reeves wrote: »
    No you did not read the post right. this is not the first or second time you missread a post to serve up you own propganda. CC did not claim that a 200 euro subsidy will preclude lads from producing better weanlings. He highlighted the fact that lots of suckler farmers producing calves at a loss rather than producing a calf that is suitable for the export market to solve there issue now have there hand out for a subsidy.

    On the assertian that 5K signatures are enough to support for a subsidy and IFA being driven by CC. What proper representive organisation will lobby for a subsidy in this case that has huge negative connotations for the wider drystock industry. But then we are taking about the IFA and logic and commonsense is not part of it remit

    You still haven't disclosed where all the extra land is going to come from to feed the extra cattle that the ''barons'' are going to get....the fact is there'll probably be less cattle killed even if the cow numbers increase marginally.
    There's no reason why there won't be a quota the same as the ewes, in fact it'd likely be mandatory that a scheme wouldn't incentivise an increase in the national suckler herd


  • #28
    Willfarman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,239 ✭✭✭Willfarman


    Increased use of imported artificial fertilizer predominantly nitrogen and increased use of imported gm maize, soya, and grain. And a fodder”crisis” every third year!! I credit you with more intelligence that this rangler and I dont believe you really believe a word of your own bluster. Your loyalty to the club is admirable.

    Subsidizing production for the processing industry will do nothing for the man with the sprong. A payment would be welcome but don’t couple it to a live cow. Couple it to hedgerows, nature, quality grading cattle and environmentaly friendly extensive farming.


  • #29
    yewtree
    Registered Users Posts: 811 ✭✭✭yewtree


    K.G. wrote: »
    Daftest thing ive ever heard.why not just give straight to larry.nevermind from an emissions point of view.looking at journal every week and seeing some of taxpayers money already wasted on buildings for suckers that makes no sense on hobby farms.if any crowd should get a sub its the tillage men considering the battering they ve taken and their importance nationally.lets face it 90 %of suckler farmers could jack it in the morning and it would make little difference to their standard of living as they have jobs.

    Would have to agree with that, a lot of suckler cows around here. All you are going to do is support inefficent producers. A lot of suckler calves i see are not much better than dairy cross calves


  • #30
    wrangler
    Registered Users Posts: 11,055 ✭✭✭✭wrangler


    Willfarman wrote: »
    Increased use of imported artificial fertilizer predominantly nitrogen and increased use of imported gm maize, soya, and grain. And a fodder”crisis” every third year!! I credit you with more intelligence that this rangler and I dont believe you really believe a word of your own bluster. Your loyalty to the club is admirable.

    Subsidizing production for the processing industry will do nothing for the man with the sprong. A payment would be welcome but don’t couple it to a live cow. Couple it to hedgerows, nature, quality grading cattle and environmentaly friendly extensive farming.

    Typical BS, when you can't put up an argument you resort to implying That I can't think for myself.
    I know if I had 50 sucklers I'd take my €10000 with open arms....you won't get that from the market place in case you haven't noticed.


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  • #31
    wrangler
    Registered Users Posts: 11,055 ✭✭✭✭wrangler


    yewtree wrote: »
    Would have to agree with that, a lot of suckler cows around here. All you are going to do is support inefficent producers. A lot of suckler calves i see are not much better than dairy cross calves

    Same in any sector, I dread to think of drinking or eating stuff produced on some farms....compulsory QA might sort some


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