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03-01-2019, 13:45   #46
PuppyMcPupFace
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May I ask bambi,
how do you imagine that to be true? Surely what ever things that you describe as evil.. have a cause?
If not, is the only other alternative that you think it spontaneously appears.. if so.. arent you just as likely to be a victim of it, or someone close you know?

To me, evil is just a word people use to attribute to a dark prescence that can't exist as just a regular part of us.. and i think its used as a way to say "I am NOT evil.. look, i can point to others that ARE evil.. so i am NOT"

Whatever made these children do what they did.. They were children.. Those that came before them create those circumstances.. unless we are saying that they were born evil as babies? I don't believe babies can be evil.
Garbage. Utter fluffy liberal useless garbage
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03-01-2019, 13:47   #47
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Some people will do anything in the name of Art.
You have spoken well of your son, if I may ask a difficult question - if you lived on the same road as the 2 killers, and your son was 10 and wondered off with the other(s), if the other boy had an influence over your son do you think at 10 years old he could have stood up for himself in such a horrific situation?
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03-01-2019, 13:47   #48
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.
I had never read those details before. So upsetting and horrific.
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03-01-2019, 13:50   #49
manonboard
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Garbage. Utter fluffy liberal useless garbage
You may label it as such, but if you wish to dispel it. It would do your argument much better to simply show the flaws in it. It seems quite like a decent set of logical induction/deduction.

I know you don't know me. I am not someone that would be considered liberal. I have very conservative views on many topics. I must challenge them and challenge what i replace them with, or else i'm stubborn and destined to not grow.
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03-01-2019, 13:51   #50
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YOU brought politics into it.
YOU are using horrendous crimes to have a go at what you call "lefties"

Tell me - if, as far as you know the warning signs were there - what were those warning signs? who saw them? Who understood them? How did they learn to recognise them? What files should be delved into? Who complies these files? Where do they get the data to put in these files?

By studying and seeking to understand why people commit these crimes. Not defend. Not excuse. Understand to find ways to prevent.

"Not like other kids" - well shut down all behavioural science units immediately. Apparently "not like other kids" is all we need to know.

As for liking to challange you - I couldn't give a monkeys about you. It's not about YOU. It's about the utter tastelessness of ANYONE using horrific crimes against children to get political digs in.
Where did I mention politics ?

You're the one bringing up politics, I've yet to see where I brought politics into this.
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03-01-2019, 13:54   #51
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Vincent Lambe is a highly regarded director, and a far cry from an attention seeker.

The problem here is that the James Bulger murder is a sacred cow of the British tabloid class, and any discussion of the murderers which doesn't characterise them with horns and pitchforks will have them wailing about how it's "too soft" on them and "humanising" them.

Believing the murderers to be just randomly "evil" and beyond explanation helps them avoid uncomfortable truths.
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03-01-2019, 13:54   #52
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Originally Posted by manonboard View Post
May I ask bambi,
how do you imagine that to be true? Surely what ever things that you describe as evil.. have a cause?
If not, is the only other alternative that you think it spontaneously appears.. if so.. arent you just as likely to be a victim of it, or someone close you know?

To me, evil is just a word people use to attribute to a dark prescence that can't exist as just a regular part of us.. and i think its used as a way to say "I am NOT evil.. look, i can point to others that ARE evil.. so i am NOT"

Whatever made these children do what they did.. They were children.. Those that came before them create those circumstances.. unless we are saying that they were born evil as babies? I don't believe babies can be evil.
Can we forgo the first year philosophy student beard scratching and strawman carry on?
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03-01-2019, 13:56   #53
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They are humans. Making them out to be evil monsters takes away from the fact that a human being is capable of committing atrocious and horrific crimes.
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03-01-2019, 13:58   #54
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Where did I mention politics ?

You're the one bringing up politics, I've yet to see where I brought politics into this.
Ok - so you were referring to Left-handed people with your comment about lefties were you?
That was in no way a reference to the traditional political divide of Left and Right was it?

Thanks for clearing that up.

Everyone - when nthclare stated that child murderers are defended by people always from the left he meant citog's - not people of a left-wing political persuasion. Right-handed people condemn them/left-handed people defend them. Apparently.

Do me a favour .
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03-01-2019, 14:01   #55
nthclare
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Originally Posted by begbysback View Post
You have spoken well of your son, if I may ask a difficult question - if you lived on the same road as the 2 killers, and your son was 10 and wondered off with the other(s), if the other boy had an influence over your son do you think at 10 years old he could have stood up for himself in such a horrific situation?
My son always had good intuition and hung out with his dog, looked after his farm animals a lot and had only a few friends.

He avoided kid's who were destructive or nasty, he was lucky enough to live in a rural setting with kid's who had similar expectations as himself.

So I don't think he'd have hung out with those kid's, we've a relative living in a fairly tough neighborhood and he just kept to himself when I'd suggest he go out and play with the kid's on the green he tried once but didn't like their attitude.

So he was never swayed by that, he'd have no problems telling them to **** off if he didn't like them.

I was fairly good at standing up for myself too, got a few beatings and gave a few.

Not ashamed of being a bit of a scrapper when I was between 10 and 16 grew out of it, there's always a tougher lad..
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03-01-2019, 14:02   #56
nthclare
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Originally Posted by Bannasidhe View Post
Ok - so you were referring to Left-handed people with your comment about lefties were you?
That was in no way a reference to the traditional political divide of Left and Right was it?

Thanks for clearing that up.

Everyone - when nthclare stated that child murderers are defended by people always from the left he meant citog's - not people of a left-wing political persuasion. Right-handed people condemn them/left-handed people defend them. Apparently.

Do me a favour .
So you're bringing everyone into this are you, can you not just leave the discussion between you and I ?
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03-01-2019, 14:13   #57
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I'm not going to say it's right or wrong for the film maker to make this. There has been many a film and documentary made on gruesome murders and will continue to happen. I don't agree with his reasoning to make this, to "learn" something. The authorities are the ones to learn and I think they will have already done so. What am I going to learn sitting on my couch and what good will it be to me? It's just a lame excuse.
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03-01-2019, 14:14   #58
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tayto, as a thought experiment. May i ask,
if your own lads for some reason suddenly had less empathy, either due to a nuerological change, a injury, or a immune system response (some biological trigger).. would you class them as evil? They wouldnt have the ability to make the same decisions as you and I. They would do things that appear evil because they dont feel empathy.
If the answer is no, then i dont think they psychopaths of any type can be called evil consistently since they obviously have experienced something, likely biological, to end up in the same circumstance.

I'm pretty curious in a genuine way. I have autism and when I was younger it took me a very long time to develop empathy to a level like everyone else. The feelings and responses seem so 'far away' that it was too energy consuming/time consuming to surface them. So I certainly did things that I wouldnt do now because i empathize alot more now. I theorized when younger i could be evil.. but later reasoned it's not possible for the reasons stated above. Just curious. Hope its ok that i asked.
The difference is that you didn't act on your thoughts and kill someone.They did. I don't know what it takes to murder or what feelings they had as they planned and executed accordingly and took pleasure in the suffering of the child.
If it was one of my own who committed an act like that I don't think I could forgive them but if someone harmed one of my grandchildren I have a feeling I could carry out a similar act on them as punishment.
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03-01-2019, 14:16   #59
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Nobody is actually defending what was done to James, in fairness, but some are pushing the responsibility from his killers - and I can understand the anger.

Yes, going by well known cases alone, it appears an awful upbringing with lack of parental bond, can contribute to horrific abuse towards others, and murder. But the vast majority of people who experience such upbringings don't do anything like what was done to that little boy.

Some people are innately bad - yes, they are human. Some humans are awful people. It's not all nurture. They're the minority but we all know them, and the better their upbringing, the more boundaries and fear of consequence they'll have, but they'll still do sh1tty things. Nothing wrong with calling this evil - it's just a description. Take away those boundaries and fear of consequence, and what they're capable of increases in severity.

The above seems applicable to Venables - look what that ****er has been doing in adulthood? You can't grow out of that kind of personality disorder.

Going along with the crowd does unfortunately cause kids to do terrible things - I think the other lad is more someone who has remorse for what he did.

If children all had loving, stable upbringings, I think there would be far fewer social problems, but it was still just those boys and nobody else who inflicted such horror on and ended the life of that child. Someone said the 25th anniversary is coming up - it's actually the 26th. Watched a documentary last year, learning the full details for the first time... and there are no words really.

Last edited by Gimme A Pound; 03-01-2019 at 14:21.
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03-01-2019, 14:28   #60
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Originally Posted by Gimme A Pound View Post
Nobody is actually defending what was done to James, in fairness, but some are pushing the responsibility from his killers - and I can understand the anger.

Yes, going by well known cases alone, it appears an awful upbringing with lack of parental bond, can contribute to horrific abuse towards others, and murder. But the vast majority of people who experience such upbringings don't do anything like what was done to that little boy.

Some people are innately bad - yes, they are human. Some humans are awful people. It's not all nurture. They're the minority but we all know them, and the better their upbringing, the more boundaries and fear of consequence they'll have, but they'll still do sh1tty things. Nothing wrong with calling this evil - it's just a description. Take away those boundaries and fear of consequence, and what they're capable of increases in severity.

The above seems applicable to Venables - look what that ****er has been doing in adulthood? You can't grow out of that kind of personality disorder.

Going along with the crowd does unfortunately cause kids to do terrible things - I think the other lad is more someone who has remorse for what he did.

If children all had loving, stable upbringings, I think there would be far fewer social problems, but it was still just those boys and nobody else who inflicted such horror on and ended the life of that child. Someone said the 25th anniversary is coming up - it's actually the 26th. Watched a documentary last year, learning the full details for the first time... and there are no words really.
You have expressed, most articulately, my thoughts exactly.
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