The poppy , to wear or not to wear?

Jawgap wrote: »

Can you start a separate thread on this?

The issue isn't whether the British Empire was 'good' or 'bad' for Ireland, the issue is people trying to re-write history to remove the grey bits - of which there were many - and define everything in black and white.

The - let's call it - 'Republican Narrative' is that the country was occupied by a foreign force and we (the Irish people) suffered under the heel of a brutal and repressive regime.

Whereas even a cursory reading of the contemporary sources reveals - in the words of Dermot Ferriter - "a nationalist movement that would not lament the passing of British rule, but was comfortable with the trappings of Empire." In fact, the main criticism that the nationalist / home rule movement were lobbing at Dublin Castle in the early 1900s was that the home rule movement was being killed with kindness!


......and that really is my final word on this, in this thread. Start a dedicated thread and take it on from there.

People got used to life under British rule and it would have alway been a difficult regime change. It was an occupation though and saying that the problems post independance could have been avoided is naive after the duration of British rule.

It was overall a negative experience for this country and our low population represents this. That is not a grey area.

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Correct, but sadly we are worse, despite a great organisation, ONE that does fantastic work, but is woefully underfunded. See ONE

Thank you for that, Pedro. A very interesting, if saddening, read. If I lived in the RoI, I'd be supporting it myself, former serviceman or not.

tac

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I look forward to the next round of claims of British imperialism, war for oil Or whatever, in the Philippines.

Growing up in Portsmouth, most of the servicemen I knew spent more time dishing out aid and tracking drug smugglers than they did pursuing the interests of the oil majors, but I guess that's just a small country pretending it's a superpower.

Any views on Robert Fisk or Snow? (Lest it be missed I am referring to non republican objectors to the poppy).

In my view as a user of this forum I am disappointed that the several people who would support the view that wearing the poppy is a positive sign of support, have at this stage avoided tackling any of the issues raised by Fisk and Snow. As such these forum users are equally culpable in the low level of debate on this subject as those who continually peddle the (almost irrelevant) republican objections.

It may be meant initially as a symbol of remembrance but people in its favour have not addressed some of the more commercial aspects.

Try here for example: http://www.poppyshop.org.uk/
Quote "Buy our stunning brooch as worn by the duchess of Cambridge" -only £25.
Or how about a bag? or an umbrella?

There is a wider question then of what this utilising a form of memorial as a tacky accessory really says about peoples intentions in remembering the past. My Grand Uncle left home aged 15 to fight in WWI and was killed in France. I don't see a poppy printed on an umbrella as a way of remembering him, in fact I find it an insult that this is how his contribution is exploited by some to make money (whatever the money is for).

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

As shown above there is an Irish version, a poppy on a shamrock. If that does not suit there also is a purely Irish, the ONE alternative, the Fuschia see here .

I agree that wearing / not wearing a poppy is a personal thing. I've family that served in both wars - WW2 in the RAF & RN, and in WW1 in the 13th Battalion, Canadian Infantry (Quebec Regt.) – the ‘Royal Highlanders of Canada’ - he died in the first gas attack at Ypres. I also have family that were in the Irish Army & LDF during the 'Emergency' - two were career officers, one later being killed on duty, the other staying in until retirement. For those reasons I support both RBL and ONE.
.

I have seen the shamrock poppy,I like it,and would wear it no problem, I am surprised more people don't wear it,considering 200,000 Irish men served in WW1 alone.
In the past 3 years I have helped with researching the relatives of approx 15 local people, all the men served in WW1 and before,and nearly all in Irish regiments, one man had previously served in the Royal Garrison Regiment( a previously unknown regiment to me),this is just an observation but I have never seen any of those people wearing a poppy to honour their relatives and I wonder if the shamrock poppy would be worn by them.
Your family have had a wide and varied service in the British,Canadian, and Irish services,which is not unlike alot of Irish families, my own runs the whole gamut from WW1,Old IRA in the 20's,WW2 and on to the 1970's in NI, all with the British army,surprisingly none with Oglaigh na hEireann.I hold them all in equal esteem and the July National Day of Remembrance ticks all my boxes:) but I agree with you that a more formal arrangement needs to be devised for November 11th.:)

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

It may be meant initially as a symbol of remembrance but people in its favour have not addressed some of the more commercial aspects.

it was initially a symbol of remembrance AND a mechanism of raising funds for wounded and needy ex service personnel.

Whilst some of the extra stuff today is undoubtedly tacky, it reflects the modern world of charity fundraising. The RBL/poppy appeal is a charity that is trying to attract funds like so many other charities. Setting up rehab centres, physiotherapy, helping find work or setup businesses etc is expensive and gets more expensive each year. But that's more about modern economics and marketing than rather history/heritage. Doesn't come into my decision making process - e.g. will I or won't I wear a symbol for charity XYZ because it sells tacky stuff?

What has not been discussed is the history of the poppy from an idea by an American lady based on a poem by a Canadian doctor, developed by a French lady and expanded/adopted/evolved in a number of countries. Nor has there been any comparisons with other symbols and other charities.

While I will wear a poppy and have no problem with the Easter Lily, I would never wear a symbol such as a crucifix. A BNP or Orange Order symbol would be equally repugnant.

How true to it's original concept is the RBL/poppy? How does it compare with other charitable enterprises, for example, the Irish Hospitals' Sweepstakes?

How did the running of a factory for disabled ex-service personnel making poppies compare with the running of a Magdalene Laundry?

All sorts of potential options for discussion but the thread title merely asks a closed question about wearing or not wearing a poppy and I would suspect that there was never any intent for any historical discussion.

To explain why the wearing of the poppy is controversial today you have to understand what happened between 1913 and 1922.

At the turn of the 20th century, the Irish Parliamentary Party were opposed to participation in the Boer War and the likes of John McBride who was a friend of Arthur Griffith of Sinn Féin and Arthur Lynch, who later became a IPP MP, both raised Irish units to fight on the side of the Boers against the British.

The majority of people who were members of the Irish National Volunteers which split from the Irish Volunteers ( founded in 1913 to protect Home Rule) following the declaration of war in 1914 were middle class Irish farmers sons. Not long after the war began drilling of the INV fell off dramatically because they feared they would be conscripted.
Home Rule had been passed in early 1914 leading to much celebration but its suspension following the beginning of the war discredited 30 years of campaigning by the Irish Parliamentary Party.
Since the last election had been 1910 and many of the IPP MPs in the Commons were veterans of the Fenians and the Land War of the late 19th century, the older conservative Irish nationalist generation was out of touch with a younger radically and militantly republican generation that had come of age.
These youngsters were involved in the GAA, the Gaelic League and increasingly gave their support to Sinn Féin.
The change was already happening before the Easter Rising of 1916 and accelerated afterward as the executions of the rebels and the imprisonment of many more generated public sympathy.
The crackdown by the RIC against republicans at public meetings of Sinn Féin, the arrest of agitators and baton charges against their supporters, the death of Thomas Ashe and continuous harassment of the younger generation increasing hatred for the Crown during 1917.
In 1918 the Germans began their final Spring Offensive and drove nearly all the way to Paris before they were stopped and pushed back.
The British threatened to introduce conscription and this confirmed the fears of young republicans who had by now become completely alienated from British rule and even the older generation had now abandoned the IPP and supported their sons' in their campaign to prevent their conscription into the army.
When the German offensive was stopped and it was clear Germany was on the brick of collapse the threat of conscription evaporated and so too did much of the political heat.
Nonetheless Sinn Féin secured an overwhelming majority and the IPP were obliterated in the December 1918 election immediately after the end of the war in November.
When Dáil Éireann sat in 1919 Sinn Féin became the target of the RIC who arrested and imprisoned most of its elected members while others were forced on the run.
Law and order broke down as the Crown courts, the Crown government and the RIC were boycotted and were targeted for assassination while republicans set up their own courts and police force and won the loyalty of the population.
The British responded with martial law, flooded the country with troops and unleashed the Black and Tans and Auxiliaries on the Irish people - terrorizing not just radical republicans but also constitutional nationalists.
Any residual respect for the Crown was gone and much of the population despite their misgivings about their terror tactics was behind the IRA.
Many men like Tom Barry who fought in WWI in British uniform, joined the IRA when they witnessed friends murdered by the Black and Tans.
In 1922 when the Irish independence was secured the majority of men who had served in the disbanded Irish regiments of the British Army threw in their lot with the Free State Army which by the end of the Civil War in 1923 numbered 50-60,000.

So there was a completely psychological break.

The tens of thousands of Irishmen who fought bravely in the Great War were forgotten and erased from history and they kept their head down in the years after independence and instead of cenotaphs to the war dead there were memorials to men of the IRA flying columns.

Some of my ancestors fought in the British Army, some were in the RIC but others were in the IRA and the Free State Army.

The Bloody Sunday Massacre in 1972 and the behavior of the B-Specials and the RIC during the Troubles revived memories of the War of Independence and has kept the hatred of the British Army and the poppy alive.

Wearing the poppy is still very much a "West Brit" identifier.
Even members of Fine Gael would not be seen dead wearing on.

So if we are going to commemorate the Irish war dead of World War I and World War II then an alternative symbol is going to have to be found.