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2018-2027 National Development Plan

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Comments

  • #452
    Cookiemunster
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 11,791 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    DaCor wrote: »
    Giving the example of Galway alone
    • Finish the Dublin-Clifden greenway
    • The Quiet Man Greenway
    • The City-Barna greenway
    • Segregated cycle lanes throughout the city
    • Segregated cycle lanes throughout the towns

    Galway alone could swallow a fairly sizeable chunk of funding on its own to cover all of the above and still have work to do.

    Think of it this way, when the money was flowing for them, the motorways couldn't be built fast enough to spend it all. The same is about to happen (hopefully) with cycling/walking infrastructure


    I doubt all of that would put a noticeable dent in the annual €360m budget. It will be very difficult to spend that much money on just walking/cycling projects, never mind €1.8bn over the five years.


  • #453
    Pete_Cavan
    Registered Users Posts: 6,696 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    DaCor wrote: »
    Giving the example of Galway alone
    • Finish the Dublin-Clifden greenway
    • The Quiet Man Greenway
    • The City-Barna greenway
    • Segregated cycle lanes throughout the city
    • Segregated cycle lanes throughout the towns

    Galway alone could swallow a fairly sizeable chunk of funding on its own to cover all of the above and still have work to do.

    Think of it this way, when the money was flowing for them, the motorways couldn't be built fast enough to spend it all. The same is about to happen (hopefully) with cycling/walking infrastructure

    How much of that has got planning approval?

    Dublin-Clifden greenway has to find a route west of Athlone where none currently exists and plenty of opposition along the way. The Quiet Man Greenway (God I hate that name) has fantasist wannabe-trainspotters to get past first. Segregated cycle lanes through Galway city will be contentious due to lack of roadspace and drivers never want to give an inch. I don't know enough about the City-Barna greenway.

    Even with money flowing, the consultation, design, consultation, redesign, consultation, planning, possible court challenge process takes an inordinate amount of time. Unless the plan is to throw money at everyone who raised an eyebrow, they won't be able to spend that much year after year.


  • #454
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭[Deleted User]


    Ye lot are hilarious.

    Of course there isn't a pipeline of projects ready to consume 360 mil immediately because it was never there to draw from.

    However, now that there is a proper fund in place, expect to see money put into planning, design, feasibility studies, CPO's and physical infrastructure.

    The cities will take a large chunk between the various bus connects and associated cycle/walking infrastructure while greenways awaiting funding will take another chunk while the remainder will go towards filling that pipeline with works in towns and cities and future greenways


  • #455
    roadmaster
    Registered Users Posts: 3,576 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    Pete_Cavan wrote: »
    How much of that has got planning approval?

    Dublin-Clifden greenway has to find a route west of Athlone where none currently exists and plenty of opposition along the way. The Quiet Man Greenway (God I hate that name) has fantasist wannabe-trainspotters to get past first. Segregated cycle lanes through Galway city will be contentious due to lack of roadspace and drivers never want to give an inch. I don't know enough about the City-Barna greenway.

    Even with money flowing, the consultation, design, consultation, redesign, consultation, planning, possible court challenge process takes an inordinate amount of time. Unless the plan is to throw money at everyone who raised an eyebrow, they won't be able to spend that much year after year.

    I know it wouldn't technically be a green way but can the old N6 not be retrofitted for cycle lanes between Athlone & Galway ?


  • #456
    veryangryman
    Registered Users Posts: 5,528 ✭✭✭veryangryman


    roadmaster wrote: »
    I know it wouldn't technically be a green way but can the old N6 not be retrofitted for cycle lanes between Athlone & Galway ?

    I hope not. Woeful road in places. Dangerous as fuh between athlone and kilreekil


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  • #457
    Pete_Cavan
    Registered Users Posts: 6,696 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    DaCor wrote: »
    Ye lot are hilarious.

    Of course there isn't a pipeline of projects ready to consume 360 mil immediately because it was never there to draw from.

    However, now that there is a proper fund in place, expect to see money put into planning, design, feasibility studies, CPO's and physical infrastructure.

    The cities will take a large chunk between the various bus connects and associated cycle/walking infrastructure while greenways awaiting funding will take another chunk while the remainder will go towards filling that pipeline with works in towns and cities and future greenways

    But that's my point, BusConnects was to happen anyway so it isn't additional infrastructure delivery. Expect some costs of other road projects that have a cycle lane which were being built anyway to help reach the target to.

    There is limited designed greenway awaiting funding, again see earlier schemes which are already funded and how much will be delivered for €40m. There isn't nine time that which can be built next year, or 10 - 18 times it the year after.


  • #458
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭[Deleted User]


    Pete_Cavan wrote: »
    But that's my point, BusConnects was to happen anyway so it isn't additional infrastructure delivery. Expect some costs of other road projects that have a cycle lane which were being built anyway to help reach the target to.

    There is limited designed greenway awaiting funding, again see earlier schemes which are already funded and how much will be delivered for €40m. There isn't nine time that which can be built next year, or 10 - 18 times it the year after.

    True and if there was it would be a farcical situation given the limited funding that has been available.

    But there will be and a lot sooner than you think

    There was a mad scramble of submissions for funding the first time the 53 million for greenways was announced. You can be damned sure there'll be a greater rush now and into the future. The major hurdle of funding is gone.

    Note, this isn't limited to greenways either so expect city councils to dip into that pot too to enable them to (hopefully) implement some segregated cycle infrastructure.

    Don't be worrying, that money will get spent. Sure, some of it will go on feasibility studies, and the b2w scheme probably and some on other bits. One thing is for sure, there will be a massive increase in the amount going to walking/cycling infrastructure compared to the current situation


  • #459
    Pete_Cavan
    Registered Users Posts: 6,696 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    roadmaster wrote: »
    I know it wouldn't technically be a green way but can the old N6 not be retrofitted for cycle lanes between Athlone & Galway ?

    Sure it could be done but you'd still need to CPO several metres along one side of the road and design would be starting from scratch so several years before significant spend on actual construction.

    Perhaps if they just said pay €50k/acre for ag land and buy residential properties at 4x market value then they can speed things up and spend lots of money in the process, not great for the taxpayer though.


  • #460
    Pete_Cavan
    Registered Users Posts: 6,696 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    DaCor wrote: »
    True and if there was it would be a farcical situation given the limited funding that has been available.

    But there will be and a lot sooner than you think

    There was a mad scramble of submissions for funding the first time the 53 million for greenways was announced. You can be damned sure there'll be a greater rush now and into the future. The major hurdle of funding is gone.

    Note, this isn't limited to greenways either so expect city councils to dip into that pot too to enable them to (hopefully) implement some segregated cycle infrastructure.

    Don't be worrying, that money will get spent. Sure, some of it will go on feasibility studies, and the b2w scheme probably and some on other bits. One thing is for sure, there will be a massive increase in the amount going to walking/cycling infrastructure compared to the current situation

    I don't deny any of that, but €360m per year, year after year, can't see them getting close. Every project completed is one less to be funded the next year, particularly if completing tens of thousands of km per year.


  • #461
    keane2097
    Registered Users Posts: 17,769 ✭✭✭✭keane2097


    Pete_Cavan wrote: »
    I don't deny any of that, but €360m per year, year after year, can't see them getting close. Every project completed is one less to be funded the next year, particularly if completing tens of thousands of km per year.

    If we're considering a aspiration of a huge nationwide cycling network where towns and cities have Dutch/Danish type infrastructure and intercity has excellent quality connections I don't feel like €1.8B over five years is likely to be vastly more than what's needed. I mean, how much would it cost to make Dublin into Copehagen in terms or cycling/walking infra in five years?

    They won't get close to spending it if they don't manage to build and absolute ****load of savage infrastructure in the towns and cities fair enough, but I guess that's the ambition.


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  • #462
    Cookiemunster
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 11,791 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    keane2097 wrote: »
    If we're considering a aspiration of a huge nationwide cycling network where towns and cities have Dutch/Danish type infrastructure and intercity has excellent quality connections I don't feel like €1.8B over five years is likely to be vastly more than what's needed. I mean, how much would it cost to make Dublin into Copehagen in terms or cycling/walking infra in five years?

    They won't get close to spending it if they don't manage to build and absolute ****load of savage infrastructure in the towns and cities fair enough, but I guess that's the ambition.

    Its the ambition, but it's not realistic in 10 years, never mind 5.


  • #463
    roadmaster
    Registered Users Posts: 3,576 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    It looks like the Government are creating a Super Junior Minister for Roads in the new government . If Ringer gets that post there wont be a blade of grass left in mayo!

    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/super-junior-minister-to-protect-roads-from-the-greens-39317405.html


  • #464
    Kevtherev1
    Registered Users Posts: 154 ✭✭Kevtherev1


    roadmaster wrote: »
    It looks like the Government are creating a Super Junior Minister for Roads in the new government . If Ringer gets that post there wont be a blade of grass left in mayo!

    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/super-junior-minister-to-protect-roads-from-the-greens-39317405.html


    So it seem the rumor of charlie chaplin being minister for Climate action and Transport is true. God help us. The sooner he and greens are gone the better.


  • #465
    roadmaster
    Registered Users Posts: 3,576 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    So any bets on the minister for Roads?


  • #466
    riddlinrussell
    Registered Users Posts: 974 ✭✭✭riddlinrussell


    Pete_Cavan wrote: »
    I don't deny any of that, but €360m per year, year after year, can't see them getting close. Every project completed is one less to be funded the next year, particularly if completing tens of thousands of km per year.

    I think its odd that people are worrying that we will 'run out' of cycling projects to spend this on, if we do does that not mean we have provided a fantastic network?

    If we built every motorway even potentially needed in the country would there then be complaints that we don't have any more motorways to spend our motorway budget on?

    When we have 'run-out' of projects for that 360 million a year (I would hope that unspent money would be carried forward, obviously there wont be 360m of projects ready in year 1, but there might be 1bn of projects ready in year 5...) A much smaller, but still substantial maintenanace budget can be ringfenced to maintain the whole network and provide for new routes as and when required or junction upgrades etc as thinking changes on how these should be implemented.


  • #467
    Leonard Hofstadter
    Registered Users Posts: 5,540 ✭✭✭Leonard Hofstadter


    When you think about it, there aren't that many big fancy motorway projects left.

    The two biggest outstanding ones are obviously the M20 and the Galway bypass.

    The M21 and M28 I would assume are perfectly safe, they have to be done by 2030 no matter what thanks to TEN-T.

    There are a few other ones which need to be dual carriageway/motorway - such as the Midleton-Youghal bypass, Macroom-Ovens, Mullingar-Longford, Waterford-Glenmore and Enniscorthy-Oilgate. After that, I don't think we need any more motorways for the next 20-30 years, maybe the odd widening scheme here and there, but that's it. Once these are complete we could look at re-classifying the N40 as well as the dual carriageway sections of the N22 and N25 to motorway, it's scandalous that we have these fine wide dual carriageways with a speed limit of only 100 km/h in places.

    Of course, there are many other outstanding roads projects left, but really, 2+2 will do the job just fine (I know there is an argument for something better than that on the N21 as far as Abbeyfeale, but I don't think anything more than 2+2 is planned for it, and the N24 would definitely not need anything more than 2+2), or even single carriageway would be enough.

    Those should be far less contentious for the Greens, and if the proposed ban on registering any combustion engined vehicle goes through in 2030, well the climate argument is gone straight away.

    So, there aren't that many big shiny motorways left to be built really, all the other roads projects after that will be lower key and much cheaper to do, so keeping a high level of spend on new roads projects won't be needed forever.


  • #468
    steeler j
    Registered Users Posts: 315 ✭✭steeler j


    Leonard Hofstadter wrote: »
    When you think about it, there aren't that many big fancy motorway projects left.

    The two biggest outstanding ones are obviously the M20 and the Galway bypass.

    The M21 and M28 I would assume are perfectly safe, they have to be done by 2030 no matter what thanks to TEN-T.

    There are a few other ones which need to be dual carriageway/motorway - such as the Midleton-Youghal bypass, Macroom-Ovens, Mullingar-Longford, Waterford-Glenmore and Enniscorthy-Oilgate. After that, I don't think we need any more motorways for the next 20-30 years, maybe the odd widening scheme here and there, but that's it. Once these are complete we could look at re-classifying the N40 as well as the dual carriageway sections of the N22 and N25 to motorway, it's scandalous that we have these fine wide dual carriageways with a speed limit of only 100 km/h in places.

    Of course, there are many other outstanding roads projects left, but really, 2+2 will do the job just fine (I know there is an argument for something better than that on the N21 as far as Abbeyfeale, but I don't think anything more than 2+2 is planned for it, and the N24 would definitely not need anything more than 2+2), or even single carriageway would be enough.

    Those should be far less contentious for the Greens, and if the proposed ban on registering any combustion engined vehicle goes through in 2030, well the climate argument is gone straight away.

    So, there aren't that many big shiny motorways left to be built really, all the other roads projects after that will be lower key and much cheaper to do, so keeping a high level of spend on new roads projects won't be needed forever.


    Ur spot on but the n24 between bother and limerick would need 2+2 and from clonmel to Waterford would merit 2+2


  • #469
    Chris_5339762
    Registered Users Posts: 5,848 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    Leonard Hofstadter wrote: »
    There are a few other ones which need to be dual carriageway/motorway - such as the Midleton-Youghal bypass, Macroom-Ovens, Mullingar-Longford, Waterford-Glenmore and Enniscorthy-Oilgate.


    You can add M40 Cork North Ring (West and East) and a completely unplanned M71 Cork to Bandon, both of which are needed right now. Cork to Waterford should be dual carriageway which Midleton - Youghal could be a part off, but I'd do 2+2 from Midleton to Kinsalebeg to start off with (ensures a replacement Youghal Bridge), then the Dungarvan bypass, then the bits inbetween.


    There are bits like the Letterkenny bypass and remaining bits of the N17 as well as loads of stuff I can't remember that needs to be done as well. All of which is on the long finger at the moment.


  • #470
    riddlinrussell
    Registered Users Posts: 974 ✭✭✭riddlinrussell


    Agreed that you are getting down to the last few 'needed' motorways, but kind of gets away from my initial point that the idea that you'll 'run out of cycling infra' to install with the money its getting is weirdly being portrayed as a negative.

    If we got to the end of the current government and said 'damn we have done all the cycling infrastructure', that would be a fantastic thing?

    Given the nature of such projects is either on public roads in the case of cycleways or minimal land take in the case of greenways I could see a huge raft of projects getting at least as far as "committed funds and awaiting construction" within the next 5 years


  • #471
    roadmaster
    Registered Users Posts: 3,576 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    The Snugburagh interchange is going to be awarded shortly with a September start date I am told. N3 commuters prepare for lots of pain!


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  • #472
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,341 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Project Ireland 2040 documents updated with following completion dates:

    N2 Slane bypass - Q4 2026
    N5 Ballaghaderreen to Scramoge - Q1 2024
    N5 Westport to Turlough - Q4 2022
    M6 Galway City RIng Road - Q4 2025
    M20 Cork to Limerick - tbc
    M21 Limerick-Adare-Foynes - Q4 2025
    N22 Macroom to Ballyvourney - Q2 2023
    M28 Cork to Ringaskiddy - Q4 2027
    N52 Ardee bypass - Q2 2023
    N56 Dungloe to Glenties - Q2 2022
    N59 Moycullen bypass - Q1 2023
    N69 Listowel bypass - Q3 2022
    N72 Mallow Relief Road - Q4 2027
    N78 Athy Southern Distributor Road - Q4 2023
    Dunkettle Interchange - Q3 2023
    Killaloe bypass/Shannon crossing/R494 - 2023

    Previous January update had years with no specified quarter.


  • #473
    roadmaster
    Registered Users Posts: 3,576 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    marno21 wrote: »
    Project Ireland 2040 documents updated with following completion dates:

    N2 Slane bypass - Q4 2026
    N5 Ballaghaderreen to Scramoge - Q1 2024
    N5 Westport to Turlough - Q4 2022
    M6 Galway City RIng Road - Q4 2025
    M20 Cork to Limerick - tbc
    M21 Limerick-Adare-Foynes - Q4 2025
    N22 Macroom to Ballyvourney - Q2 2023
    M28 Cork to Ringaskiddy - Q4 2027
    N52 Ardee bypass - Q2 2023
    N56 Dungloe to Glenties - Q2 2022
    N59 Moycullen bypass - Q1 2023
    N69 Listowel bypass - Q3 2022
    N72 Mallow Relief Road - Q4 2027
    N78 Athy Southern Distributor Road - Q4 2023
    Dunkettle Interchange - Q3 2023
    Killaloe bypass/Shannon crossing/R494 - 2023

    Previous January update had years with no specified quarter.

    Is the completion date for the Galway ring road a bit optimistic?


  • #474
    Limerick74
    Registered Users Posts: 447 ✭✭Limerick74


    marno21 wrote: »
    Project Ireland 2040 documents updated with following completion dates:

    N2 Slane bypass - Q4 2026
    N5 Ballaghaderreen to Scramoge - Q1 2024
    N5 Westport to Turlough - Q4 2022
    M6 Galway City RIng Road - Q4 2025
    M20 Cork to Limerick - tbc
    M21 Limerick-Adare-Foynes - Q4 2025
    N22 Macroom to Ballyvourney - Q2 2023
    M28 Cork to Ringaskiddy - Q4 2027
    N52 Ardee bypass - Q2 2023
    N56 Dungloe to Glenties - Q2 2022
    N59 Moycullen bypass - Q1 2023
    N69 Listowel bypass - Q3 2022
    N72 Mallow Relief Road - Q4 2027
    N78 Athy Southern Distributor Road - Q4 2023
    Dunkettle Interchange - Q3 2023
    Killaloe bypass/Shannon crossing/R494 - 2023

    Previous January update had years with no specified quarter.

    I can only see the January 2020 update. Do you have a link to the updated tracker?


  • #475
    Pete_Cavan
    Registered Users Posts: 6,696 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    roadmaster wrote: »
    Is the completion date for the Galway ring road a bit optimistic?

    Even saying ever would be optimistic for that one, most likely never.


  • #476
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,341 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Limerick74 wrote: »
    I can only see the January 2020 update. Do you have a link to the updated tracker?

    I found them in the Interactive Map on this page: https://www.gov.ie/en/campaigns/09022006-project-ireland-2040/

    The website has been updated recently but not the actual hard documents (the project tracker and the Pipeline document). Those dates seemed to be updated in the online map but not the associated documents.


  • #477
    Cookiemunster
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 11,791 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    Jaysus, the M28 is down to open two years later than the M21 which is still at ABP. They must be expecting the court battles to continue beyond the High Court.


  • #478
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,341 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Cookiemunster wrote: »
    Jaysus, the M28 is down to open two years later than the M21 which is still at ABP. They must be expecting the court battles to continue beyond the High Court.

    There’s a lengthy advance works programme planned for the M28 and construction is expected to be lengthy because of some of the challenges involved (particularly north of Carr’s Hill where it’ll be an online upgrade of a road that’s already chocker at the best of times). There’s also works required on ancillary roads in the Rochestown area and some complex service diversion works required.


  • #479
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,341 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    TII allocations for 2021

    Major Schemes - Advancing to construction

    Scheme title | Allocation (€)
    N2 Slane bypass | 1,000,000
    N5 Ballaghaderreen-Scramoge | 22,000,000
    N4 Collooney-Castlebaldwin | 25,000,000
    N5 Westport-Turlough | 60,000,000
    M6 Galway City Ring Road | 1,000,000
    N8/N25/N40 Dunkettle Interchange | 2,000,000
    N11 Kilmacanogue Phase 1 | 1,500,000
    M20 Cork-Limerick | 5,000,000
    M21 Foynes-Limerick | 2,000,000
    N22 Macroom to Ballyvourney | 69,000,000
    M28 Cork to Ringaskiddy | 2,500,000
    N52 Ardee bypass | 1,500,000
    N56 Dungloe-Glenties | 22,900,000
    N56 Mountcharles-Inver | 4,115,000
    N59 Clifden to Oughterard | 4,800,000
    N59 Moycullen bypass | 8,000,000
    N59 Westport-Mulranny | 1,100,000
    N69 Listowel bypass | 10,000,000
    N72 Mallow Relief Road | 800,000
    N86 Tralee-Dingle | 3,600,000


    Major Schemes - Planning and design

    Scheme title | Allocation (€)
    N2 Ardee to South of Castleblayney | 1,300,000
    N2 Ashbourne-Kilmoon Cross | 800,000
    N2 Clontibret to Border | 1,300,000
    N3 M50 to Clonee | 750,000
    N3 Virginia bypass | 1,000,000
    M4 Maynooth-Leixlip | 1,750,000
    N4 Mullingar-Longford | 2,400,000
    N4 Carrick-on-Shannon to Dromod | 1,500,000
    M11/N11 J4 - J14 upgrade | 4,000,000
    N11/N25 Oilgate to Rosslare Harbour | 3,000,000
    N13/N14/N15 Donegal TEN-T | 2,100,000
    N17 Knock to Collooney | 1,100,000
    N21 Abbeyfeale | 500,000
    N21 Newcastlewest | 500,000
    N22 Farranfore to Killarney | 1,000,000
    N24 Cahir to Limerick Junction | 1,000,000
    N24 Waterford-Cahir | 1,750,000
    N25 Carrigtwohill-Midleton | 1,250,000
    N25 Waterford-Glenmore | 1,000,000
    M50 Dublin Port South Access Road | 50,000
    N52 Tullamore-Kilbeggan | 1,000,000


    Other schemes
    Scheme title | Allocation (€)
    Cork TEN-T Route Study | 250,000
    N14/N15-A5 Link | 50,000
    N25 Castlemartyr Bypass | 100,000
    N25 Rosslare Europort Access Route | 350,000
    N26 Ballina bypass Phase 1 | 100,000
    N40 Cork Northern Ring Road | 300,000
    N55 Athlone-Ballymahon | 150,000
    N61 Ballymurray to Knockcroghery | 400,000
    N67 Ennistymon Inner Relief Road | 2,000,000
    N71 Bandon bypass extension | 100,000
    N84 Galway to Curraghmore | 50,000


  • #480
    DumbBrunette
    Registered Users Posts: 756 ✭✭✭DumbBrunette


    I noticed in this year's allocations that there are lots of projects that are prefaced with the letters 'AT', like in the attached pic. Most of the allocations are for €50,000. Does anyone know what these are for?

    537072.jpg

    Also, would anyone know what the Cork ten-t route study is exactly??


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  • #481
    KrisW1001
    Registered Users Posts: 1,426 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    N25 Castlemartyr Bypass - I assume (hope!) this would connect the Western approach to Castlemartyr with the Shanagarry road, and so avoid the traffic-light junction in the village. I regularly drive this road, and to me, that is the movement that accounts for most of the congestion in Castlemartyr itself.


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