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RTB seeing the light!

13

Comments

  • #62
    terrydel
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,881 ✭✭✭terrydel


    riemann wrote: »
    Its fairly easy to understand. What we need is more government controlled/owned public housing.

    House of cards will come falling down again soon. It's as if people never learn.

    I wonder why 55,000 landlords sold up? Maybe because property prices have peaked and it was the right time to sell.

    Our government have zero interest in providing the levels required, so unless people vote for someone else, that situation will remain.
    One thing that is clear is that the market cannot fix the problem, and is in fact exacerbating it.


  • #63
    The Student
    Registered Users Posts: 1,238 ✭✭✭The Student


    terrydel wrote: »
    Our government have zero interest in providing the levels required, so unless people vote for someone else, that situation will remain.
    One thing that is clear is that the market cannot fix the problem, and is in fact exacerbating it.

    We need a cultural change in our mindset. We have people who don't pay either mortgage or rents (both private and social) and yet they are not evicted without going through a long arduous process and even then they are not evicted. We have this bizarre notion that everybody should be housed no matter what they do. At what point do we actually say enough is enough!

    No matter what party/politician is voted into power this will not change, what politician will agree to an eviction of any sort?

    Ironically if the market was allowed to function correctly it actually would go a long way towards fixing the problem. it may not fully fix it but it would certainly improve it.

    Existing investors would be encouraged to stay in the market, new investors would be encouraged into the market thereby increasing the available number of properties to either rent or buy.

    One of the reasons we have the issue we have is the constant interference by the State who have not provided the social housing for those who need it, have abdicated its responsibility onto the private sector and is then trying to control the private sector with the RTB and rent pressure zones etc.

    What do people expect is going to happen the private sector is just going to take it.


  • #64
    terrydel
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,881 ✭✭✭terrydel


    The Student wrote: »
    We need a cultural change in our mindset. We have people who don't pay either mortgage or rents (both private and social) and yet they are not evicted without going through a long arduous process and even then they are not evicted. We have this bizarre notion that everybody should be housed no matter what they do. At what point do we actually say enough is enough!

    No matter what party/politician is voted into power this will not change, what politician will agree to an eviction of any sort?

    Ironically if the market was allowed to function correctly it actually would go a long way towards fixing the problem. it may not fully fix it but it would certainly improve it.

    Existing investors would be encouraged to stay in the market, new investors would be encouraged into the market thereby increasing the available number of properties to either rent or buy.

    One of the reasons we have the issue we have is the constant interference by the State who have not provided the social housing for those who need it, have abdicated its responsibility onto the private sector and is then trying to control the private sector with the RTB and rent pressure zones etc.

    What do people expect is going to happen the private sector is just going to take it.

    I dont think the number of people who dont pay either mortgage or rent is that high, you will always have a % who play every system, but vast majority of people just want to get on and live their lives.
    As for where do we draw the line, well my own personal opinion is that everyone should be housed and if the alternative is they end up or in hotels/inadequate temporary accomodation, thats no alternative at all. We should be a society, not an economy, and a society takes care of all those in it. I especially believe this when we have a situation where our government and those who vote for them have created a scenario where even many who want to house themselves and are willing to do so, cannot. So what do you do? Let them suffer?
    As I said, you'll always have a small % who abuse the system and dont want to contribute, but that number is relatively tiny and given the opportunity most will do what they can to look after themselves if the system allows it. The rest need the support of others.


  • #65
    The_Conductor
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,278 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    terrydel wrote: »
    Is the eviction thing really a problem tho? The only figures I've seen on it show overholding is a tiny issue in reality, not having a go but on boards like this and others I think it is exaggerated beyond belief. I was a landlord over a decade and never had an issue with it, know a good number of others who were also landlords and same thing. Yes it goes on, but I dont see it as the problem its made out to be.

    I have two siblings letting their sole properties who both, at different times, were blackmailed to pay tenants to leave properties. One of them subsequently had a tenant who caused 45k of damage (in Galway city) after there was structural damage to it by the tenant. That tenant is paying restitution at the rate of 5 Euro per week- which my sister realises will take 173 years to make good the damage- but she took the cases nevertheless- as she was so annoyed and devastated by the damage the tenant caused.

    There aren't numbers out there- because they're not recorded anywhere- but many landlords don't see any point in taking cases to the RTB, esp. when even if the ruling is in their favour- they will never see a penny from the tenant- or if they do- its at such a low level that it is improbable that any loss of rent or damage will ever be made good.

    In my siblings cases- they both own a single property- which they were living in up until they left the country during the downturn- and haven't returned to (yet anyway).

    The system is rigged- there may be platitudes in the legislation- but they mean nothing if they are not enforceable- other than against landlords. A landlord has an asset and can be chased if they do anything wrong- a tenant simply pleads penury and gets off the hook- regardless of the extent of the damage they cause.

    The system is rigged- as people are discovering- wholly aside from being made scapegoats- being held financially liable for a system that doesn't work- simply doesn't make the sector viable.

    On the Brightside- all the landlords leaving the sector (there are, according to the RTB, 54,000 fewer landlords now than there were 4 years ago)- mean more property is hitting the market for people to buy.

    There are some pools of property out there that *need* to be tapped if the sector is ever to work- esp the likes of the fair deal homes. I personally don't understand how or why those properties are being left vacant- that's just nuts.

    The current situation where despite historically high rent levels, it doesn't make sense to be a landlord- is insane. Of course Threshold like to paint a different picture- but then again, they'd be out of a job if they didn't.


  • #66
    Moomoomacshoe
    Registered Users Posts: 104 ✭✭Moomoomacshoe


    Chiming in here..renting 15 plus years. In my 30s, I have 10 or so friends similar to give perspective plus conversations regularly with other tenants. Without exaggeration every single one of us have been given false termination notices so that the landlord can get tenants out to up the rent. Illegal rent hikes with tenants afraid to rock the boat.
    90%of these properties bought circa late 80/early 90's. Complete greed. Have a look at the figures..its only now that tenants are finally taking these cases to the RTB but trust me there are hundreds more that go silently.
    All I can see is greed. 5 of my friends are accidental landlords and happily keep their tenants without disruption, longterm, not raising the rent or doing shifty business, despite being at a loss having bought in the boom. Sadly these landlords are few and far between.

    I literally could tell you story after story. Its complete greed and about time landlords are held accountable. Along with all the hedge funds coming in to make a killing..give me a break? Of course they are.. easy money.

    Sorry but I am so sick of hearing poor me landlord stories. Its about time the tenants are heard.


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  • #67
    The Student
    Registered Users Posts: 1,238 ✭✭✭The Student


    terrydel wrote: »
    I dont think the number of people who dont pay either mortgage or rent is that high, you will always have a % who play every system, but vast majority of people just want to get on and live their lives.
    As for where do we draw the line, well my own personal opinion is that everyone should be housed and if the alternative is they end up or in hotels/inadequate temporary accomodation, thats no alternative at all. We should be a society, not an economy, and a society takes care of all those in it. I especially believe this when we have a situation where our government and those who vote for them have created a scenario where even many who want to house themselves and are willing to do so, cannot. So what do you do? Let them suffer?
    As I said, you'll always have a small % who abuse the system and dont want to contribute, but that number is relatively tiny and given the opportunity most will do what they can to look after themselves if the system allows it. The rest need the support of others.

    I see you altered my post in your post. Was there a reason why you felt the need to alter it?


    [U]Had rent pressure zones not come in what do you think would have happened? Rent would have continued to increase and we'd have 1000s homeless. I dont see how anyone can dispute that. The neoliberal government we have wasnt building new homes so the supply side wasnt going to get fixed, therefore something had to control the rent. I'd personally rather discommode some landlords as opposed to making an already awful homelessness crisis multiples worse[/U]


  • #68
    Topgear on Dave
    Registered Users Posts: 4,520 ✭✭✭Topgear on Dave


    terrydel wrote: »
    We should be a society, not an economy, and a society takes care of all those in it.

    I find this union catchphrase hilarious.

    I dare you to tell the guards/nurses/teachers/civil servants/various other vested interests that you are going to divert the funds from their pay rises to build a slew of social housing.

    Tell them "we're a society and not an economy" and let us know here how you get on.


  • #69
    Cuddlesworth
    Registered Users Posts: 13,980 ✭✭✭✭Cuddlesworth


    Moomoomacshoe wrote: »
    Sorry but I am so sick of hearing poor me landlord stories. Its about time the tenants are heard.

    They are heard and it's a **** market for everybody.

    Your mates could have taken cases with the RTB and they probably would have won. But they are afraid to because it rocks the boat in a market where they struggle to find another place. And they struggle to find another place because landlords are leaving the market in droves, because the market is ****e for them. Which leaves more and more of the ones you don't want, the slum landlords and the risky tenants. Which makes things worse for the rest, raising rents, making things more difficult and causing more landlords to leave.

    Might sound stupid, but it's clearly happening.


  • #70
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Moomoomacshoe wrote: »
    Chiming in here..renting 15 plus years. In my 30s, I have 10 or so friends similar to give perspective plus conversations regularly with other tenants. Without exaggeration every single one of us have been given false termination notices so that the landlord can get tenants out to up the rent. Illegal rent hikes with tenants afraid to rock the boat.
    90%of these properties bought circa late 80/early 90's. Complete greed. Have a look at the figures..its only now that tenants are finally taking these cases to the RTB but trust me there are hundreds more that go silently.
    All I can see is greed. 5 of my friends are accidental landlords and happily keep their tenants without disruption, longterm, not raising the rent or doing shifty business, despite being at a loss having bought in the boom. Sadly these landlords are few and far between.

    I literally could tell you story after story. Its complete greed and about time landlords are held accountable. Along with all the hedge funds coming in to make a killing..give me a break? Of course they are.. easy money.

    Sorry but I am so sick of hearing poor me landlord stories. Its about time the tenants are heard.

    What would you suggest as a next step.
    Ban private LL with less than 10 properties.
    Fix/reduce rents at a low level even where loss making.
    No evictions allowed.


  • #71
    The Student
    Registered Users Posts: 1,238 ✭✭✭The Student


    Moomoomacshoe wrote: »
    Chiming in here..renting 15 plus years. In my 30s, I have 10 or so friends similar to give perspective plus conversations regularly with other tenants. Without exaggeration every single one of us have been given false termination notices so that the landlord can get tenants out to up the rent. Illegal rent hikes with tenants afraid to rock the boat.
    90%of these properties bought circa late 80/early 90's. Complete greed. Have a look at the figures..its only now that tenants are finally taking these cases to the RTB but trust me there are hundreds more that go silently.
    All I can see is greed. 5 of my friends are accidental landlords and happily keep their tenants without disruption, longterm, not raising the rent or doing shifty business, despite being at a loss having bought in the boom. Sadly these landlords are few and far between.

    I literally could tell you story after story. Its complete greed and about time landlords are held accountable. Along with all the hedge funds coming in to make a killing..give me a break? Of course they are.. easy money.

    Sorry but I am so sick of hearing poor me landlord stories. Its about time the tenants are heard.

    Could I ask that you cast your mind back to 2011/2012 when rents fell through the floor. Would you be willing to set a min rent level somewhere between the current levels and the low levels for the above period?

    People want a professional sector but when it does not suit the tenant then its greed but when it suits the tenant its "market forces".

    You can't have it both ways!


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  • #72
    terrydel
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,881 ✭✭✭terrydel


    The Student wrote: »
    I see you altered my post in your post. Was there a reason why you felt the need to alter it?


    [U]Had rent pressure zones not come in what do you think would have happened? Rent would have continued to increase and we'd have 1000s homeless. I dont see how anyone can dispute that. The neoliberal government we have wasnt building new homes so the supply side wasnt going to get fixed, therefore something had to control the rent. I'd personally rather discommode some landlords as opposed to making an already awful homelessness crisis multiples worse[/U]

    What? How can I alter your post?


  • #73
    terrydel
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,881 ✭✭✭terrydel


    The Student wrote: »
    I see you altered my post in your post. Was there a reason why you felt the need to alter it?


    [U]Had rent pressure zones not come in what do you think would have happened? Rent would have continued to increase and we'd have 1000s homeless. I dont see how anyone can dispute that. The neoliberal government we have wasnt building new homes so the supply side wasnt going to get fixed, therefore something had to control the rent. I'd personally rather discommode some landlords as opposed to making an already awful homelessness crisis multiples worse[/U]

    Where did I alter it? I quoted your post directly and did not change a single letter in it. Why would I bother? I was just replying with my opinions and nothing more, I had no issue with your post at all, just wanted to discuss it.
    Thats a terrible accusation to make against me and I'm really angry over it.

    I've just done a comparison of your original post and how I quoted it, exactly the same.
    Thanks for the unfounded accusation which got me banned and warned from here.


  • #74
    The Student
    Registered Users Posts: 1,238 ✭✭✭The Student


    terrydel wrote: »
    Where did I alter it? I quoted your post directly and did not change a single letter in it. Why would I bother? I was just replying with my opinions and nothing more, I had no issue with your post at all, just wanted to discuss it.
    Thats a terrible accusation to make against me and I'm really angry over it.

    I've just done a comparison of your original post and how I quoted it, exactly the same.
    Thanks for the unfounded accusation which got me banned and warned from here.

    I have responded to your private message. If you want to have a public disagreement via this forum I will oblige you.

    if you feel the moderator was unfair then why would they be the last to update your post. Surely they would investigate any accusation before taking any action?


  • #75
    m5ex9oqjawdg2i
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,221 ✭✭✭✭m5ex9oqjawdg2i


    Moomoomacshoe wrote: »
    easy money.

    Sorry but I am so sick of hearing poor me landlord stories. Its about time the tenants are heard.

    Those parts there... hilarious! :pac:

    And if the money is sooo easy, why are LLs abandoning ship? Why aren't you a landlord? Why isn't everybody a landlord?


  • #76
    terrydel
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,881 ✭✭✭terrydel


    Kingston Wet Kneecap wrote: »
    Those parts there... hilarious! :pac:

    And if the money is sooo easy, why are LLs abandoning ship? Why aren't you a landlord? Why isn't everybody a landlord?

    Plenty are abandoning ship because property prices have peaked and they are cashing in.
    Lots im sure are leaving because theyve had enough/arent making enough out of it etc etc.
    But the narrative that they are leaving in their droves solely because they are oppressed is rubbish. Loads are willingly and happily leaving with a nice few quid profit in their hands.
    I'd imagine he isnt a landlord most likely because he cant afford to be, same goes for the vast majority that arent landlords.


  • #77
    DubCount
    Registered Users Posts: 1,064 ✭✭✭DubCount


    The introduction of RPZ's was a significant kick to Landlords. Knowing that your property has a restriction on rent that is well below market value (probably because you were rewarding a good tenant) while the house/apartment next door can charge market value gets under your skin.

    The biggest driver leavers though is the risk from bad tenants. Not many accidental landlords can afford to cover their own rent/mortgage and the investment mortgage while getting no rent for 2 years. With this risk, there are simply many easier ways to make money.

    Certainly negative equity slowed down the exit for some landlords for a while, but the lack of possible future capital growth is not the driver.


  • #78
    garhjw
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,424 ✭✭✭garhjw


    terrydel wrote: »
    Plenty are abandoning ship because property prices have peaked and they are cashing in.
    Lots im sure are leaving because theyve had enough/arent making enough out of it etc etc.
    But the narrative that they are leaving in their droves solely because they are oppressed is rubbish. Loads are willingly and happily leaving with a nice few quid profit in their hands.
    I'd imagine he isnt a landlord most likely because he cant afford to be, same goes for the vast majority that arent landlords.

    Do you have any evidence of that?


  • #79
    rightmove
    Registered Users Posts: 992 ✭✭✭rightmove


    As a landlord and tenants. Ok as landlord I left because my tenants were around 60% below market rate and that was fine if I still had the mechanism to up it at some point to say 80% of market rate. However eventually when my tenants left they had subletted and got a free house . I presume the overcrowding and sub letting was at market rate. Rtb is no good and you never bother with it as a landlord. Even with that the tenants stuffed me the last months rent and asked for extension!!! While not paying rent and sub letting the whole house..now I was a tenant also and my landlord asked me to leave as he was selling. I left in 3 months and bought as no where to rent. But it was all done without formal notices and rtb etc. When I needed 2 weeks extra at the end, he was fine with it. Government messed up market totally


  • #80
    rightmove
    Registered Users Posts: 992 ✭✭✭rightmove


    Wont mention the mess the tenants left place in either


  • #81
    murphaph
    Registered Users Posts: 19,018 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    beauf wrote: »
    Berlin is going to have a 5yr rent freeze. Expect similar here shortly.
    Won't work in Berlin and won't work in Ireland either.

    I'm keeping an eye on the Berlin situation as I have a rental there as well. It'll almost certainly be challenged at constitutional court level and it's not clear what will happen there.

    You'll see the same problem if it is legal... landlords will not be interested in building.

    The only way to control rents is to ensure enough housing stock.


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  • #82
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    We said the same about rent caps. They haven't worked either. We still copied them.


  • #83
    murphaph
    Registered Users Posts: 19,018 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    beauf wrote: »
    We said the same about rent caps. They haven't worked either. We still copied them.
    Most probably.


  • #84
    Varik
    Registered Users Posts: 12,480 ✭✭✭✭Varik


    murphaph wrote: »
    Won't work in Berlin and won't work in Ireland either.

    I'm keeping an eye on the Berlin situation as I have a rental there as well. It'll almost certainly be challenged at constitutional court level and it's not clear what will happen there.

    You'll see the same problem if it is legal... landlords will not be interested in building.

    The only way to control rents is to ensure enough housing stock.

    Difference is it won't be challenged here, the rpz is arguably already unconstitutional even the government's read that it was limited in scope and time frame is out the window now.

    but unless one of the big REIT want to challenge it later no one else will be able too.


  • #85
    The Student
    Registered Users Posts: 1,238 ✭✭✭The Student


    Varik wrote: »
    Difference is it won't be challenged here, the rpz is arguably already unconstitutional even the government's read that it was limited in scope and time frame is out the window now.

    but unless one of the big REIT want to challenge it later no one else will be able too.

    Any update on what's happening with RPZ is it extended and if so till when.


  • #86
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    The Student wrote: »
    Any update on what's happening with RPZ is it extended and if so till when.

    Expect it to become nation wide and as long as it takes for increased supply or reduced demand.


  • #87
    Varik
    Registered Users Posts: 12,480 ✭✭✭✭Varik


    The Student wrote: »
    Any update on what's happening with RPZ is it extended and if so till when.

    Was to expire this December but now it's 2021.


  • #88
    The Student
    Registered Users Posts: 1,238 ✭✭✭The Student


    Varik wrote: »
    Was to expire this December but now it's 2021.
    Thks.


  • #89
    The Student
    Registered Users Posts: 1,238 ✭✭✭The Student


    beauf wrote: »
    Expect it to become nation wide and as long as it takes for increased supply or reduced demand.
    Thks


  • #90
    Fol20
    Registered Users Posts: 3,623 ✭✭✭Fol20


    Moomoomacshoe wrote: »
    All I can see is greed.

    5 of my friends are accidental landlords and happily keep their tenants without disruption, longterm, not raising the rent or doing shifty business, despite being at a loss having bought in the boom. Sadly these landlords are few and far between.

    I literally could tell you story after story. Its complete greed and about time landlords are held accountable. Along with all the hedge funds coming in to make a killing..give me a break? Of course they are.. easy money.
    .

    Why exactly do you think people become landlords?
    It’s not for the fun of it. It’s to make money.

    Would you go to work and not get paid? I think not and why do you expect ll to accept to make a loss like your friends.

    In your job are you ok to not get a pay rise every year/5years? Would you not expect the same as a ll?

    It’s a business and you should stop expecting a private enterprise to do it for social reasons rather than purely financial.


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  • #91
    Fol20
    Registered Users Posts: 3,623 ✭✭✭Fol20


    terrydel wrote: »
    Plenty are abandoning ship because property prices have peaked and they are cashing in.
    Lots im sure are leaving because theyve had enough/arent making enough out of it etc etc.
    But the narrative that they are leaving in their droves solely because they are oppressed is rubbish. Loads are willingly and happily leaving with a nice few quid profit in their hands.
    I'd imagine he isnt a landlord most likely because he cant afford to be, same goes for the vast majority that arent landlords.

    Yes a number of your points are correct as any given point in life, ll will leave the market for various reasons. The difference now though is that due to excessive legislation, ROI and risk is causing not enough new ll to enter the market to balance out the ones that are leaving.


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