Driving other cars, other car not insured

extra-ordinary_ · 31-07-2020 12:35pm #1

If when driving another car as part of an insurance policy 'driving other cars' extension, where the owner of the other car does not have an active insurance policy on the car, how is it possible to comply with the law that demands an Insurance disc be displayed when I drive the car?
I can't seem to find anything under the 1961 Motoring Act concerning the display of Insurance discs.

Atlantic Dawn · 31-07-2020 12:47pm

Some insurers insist on the other car having insurance on it, check with your insurer. When I am driving other cars I bring my policy with me, you can always bring your own disc and policy but if the car is unattended it won't help.

extra-ordinary_ · 31-07-2020 1:10pm

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Some insurers insist on the other car having insurance on it, check with your insurer. When I am driving other cars I bring my policy with me, you can always bring your own disc and policy but if the car is unattended it won't help.

My insurance company does not insist on an active policy on the other car. I can bring my own cert no problem. So, I should display my own car's Insurance disc in the other car when I'm driving it?

blackbox · 31-07-2020 1:20pm

As above, just Bring your cert with you.

Whilst OK to drive, It may be an offence to park the car in a public place.

extra-ordinary_ · 31-07-2020 1:23pm

blackbox wrote: »

As above, just Bring your cert with you.

Whilst OK to drive, It may be an offence to park the car in a public place.

Won't I still be committing an offence of not displaying a valid insurance disc?

sunnysoutheast · 31-07-2020 1:25pm

Mine has no requirement for the other car to be insured, but it is explicit that the other car must have NCT (as must the insured car).

I usually just carry the cert. with me on the rare occasion I drive another car.

User1998 · 31-07-2020 1:25pm

Who are you insured with that doesn’t require the car to have an active policy on it?

endacl · 31-07-2020 1:28pm

extra-ordinary_ wrote: »

Won't I still be committing an offence of not displaying a valid insurance disc?

No. The owner would.

Uncle Pierre · 31-07-2020 1:30pm

Would a fine for not having a valid insurance disc displayed not issue to the owner of the vehicle, rather than the user?

Seems it would apply in the case of the offence being detected on an unattended parked car anyway. A fine would issue to the registered owner, according to the registration plates? In the same way that a speeding fine is issued to the owner, rather than the driver?

And if you're worried about the situation if you're stopped in person (e.g. at a checkpoint), I'd say that carrying your own insurance cert would cover you all right. It might technically be still an offence to drive without a valid disc displayed all right, but I'd say if you could demonstrate that you're insured to drive it, and explain the circumstances of how it's not your vehicle and therefore you don't actually have a disc for it yourself, you'd be okay.

coylemj · 31-07-2020 2:52pm

User1998 wrote: »

Who are you insured with that doesn’t require the car to have an active policy on it?

The general answer to your question is: Anyone other than Aviva and Liberty.

They are currently the only insurers who insist that in order for your 'driving other cars' to cover you, there must be an active policy in place for the car you borrow.

Uncle Pierre · 31-07-2020 3:00pm

coylemj wrote: »

The general answer to your question is: Anyone other than Aviva and Liberty.

They are currently the only insurers who insist that in order for your 'driving other cars' to cover you, there must be an active policy in place for the car you borrow.

Where would it actually say that? Am asking because I'm with Aviva myself and am looking at my insurance cert right now. It says:

Vehicles, or Classes of Vehicles, the use of which is covered
A - Vehicle bearing Index Mark and Registration Number (my car)
B - Any Motor Car being driven by the insured, provided such vehicle does not belong to him and is not hired to him under a Hire Purchase Agreement or under a Contract of Lease Hire or Contract Hire

Provided such vehicle has not been stolen or obtained by violence or taken without the consent of the owner or other lawful authority.

There's no mention of how somebody else would have to hold a policy for the other vehicle as well....

coylemj · 31-07-2020 3:34pm

Uncle Pierre wrote: »

Where would it actually say that? Am asking because I'm with Aviva myself and am looking at my insurance cert right now. It says:

......

There's no mention of how somebody else would have to hold a policy for the other vehicle as well....

It's the policy document you need to check, the cert. has very limited space and cannot accommodate all the terms and conditions that apply.

In the current Aviva policy document (p. 17), under 'Driving Other Cars', it says ....

This cover will only apply if –

it is shown that this cover applies under Section 5(b) of your certificate of insurance;
you do not own the Private car or you have not hired the Private car under a hire-purchase agreement, contract of lease hire or contract hire;
the Private car is not owned by your employer or hired to them under a hire-purchase or lease agreement;
a current certificate of insurance has been issued and remains in force on the Private car being driven under the Driving other cars cover provided;
you have the consent of the owner to drive the Private car;
the Private car is being used within the limits of use shown in the current certificate of insurance;
you still own and insure your carunder this policy and your car has not been damaged beyond economic repair;
the Private car is being driven within the geographical limits of the policy;
the motor vehicle being driven is solely a Private car. This cover does not include the driving of any commercial vehicles, camper vehicles, vans, car-vans, vans adapted to carry passengers or vehicles used for hire or reward such as a taxi or a hackney car;
you have complied with the duty to take care condition as set out under the General conditions of the policy in respect of the Private car.

https://www.aviva.ie/content/dam/aviva-public/ie/pdfs/motorcare-policy-booklet.pdf

Uncle Pierre · 31-07-2020 3:48pm

Jaysus. Never knew that, so sincere thanks for what could be some crucial information some day. I always check the cert each year to make sure all's in order, but don't think I've ever actually read the full policy booklet. Am probably not alone in that either!

It doesn't happen very often that I drive another car, but I'll definitely be conscious of this whenever it occurs in future, so thanks again.

coylemj · 31-07-2020 4:20pm

Uncle Pierre wrote: »

Jaysus. Never knew that, so sincere thanks for what could be some crucial information some day. I always check the cert each year to make sure all's in order, but don't think I've ever actually read the full policy booklet. Am probably not alone in that either!

It doesn't happen very often that I drive another car, but I'll definitely be conscious of this whenever it occurs in future, so thanks again.

Happy to help but I'd advise you read the policy document every year to see if the Ts & Cs have changed. For example, under 'driving other cars', some companies have more restrictions than others and the big one to watch out for is the requirement in some policies (e.g. Liberty) that your own car must still be roadworthy in order for 'driving other cars' cover to apply. That's currently not a condition of your cover but Aviva might include it in a future revision of the policy document.

Uncle Pierre · 31-07-2020 4:42pm

Thanks again.

Just out of interest, since you seem very knowledgeable on this, and so I'm guessing you might be involved in the insurance industry yourself:

My wife's car insurance has been with Liberty for the past few years. She was in a minor collision at one stage (no injuries), where another party drove into her. Her car was smashed up a bit at the back, had to be towed away, and was off the road for about two weeks. It wasn't in roadworthy condition during this time.

She used my car regularly during those weeks. I have her as a named driver anyway, but if I hadn't, does this mean her insurance wouldn't actually have covered her in those circumstances? Again, just in case anything similar ever arises in future.

coylemj · 01-08-2020 12:22pm

Uncle Pierre wrote: »

My wife's car insurance has been with Liberty for the past few years. She was in a minor collision at one stage (no injuries), where another party drove into her. Her car was smashed up a bit at the back, had to be towed away, and was off the road for about two weeks. It wasn't in roadworthy condition during this time.

She used my car regularly during those weeks. I have her as a named driver anyway, but if I hadn't, does this mean her insurance wouldn't actually have covered her in those circumstances? Again, just in case anything similar ever arises in future.

I don't work in the insurance business, I'm just used to reading policy documents to help clear up ambiguities and sometimes to debunk urban myths in this forum. The answer to most questions about cover can be found in the policy document. We do have an insurance insider who contributes to this forum, he is very helpful when dealing with queries around claims handling.

According to my reading of the current Liberty policy document, your wife's policy would not have covered her to drive your car as her own car was not (by your reckoning) in a roadworthy condition.

Because one of the conditions for 'Driving other cars' in the Liberty policy document is:

9.you still have the insured vehicle and it holds a valid NCT and is in a roadworthy condition

That's on P.30 of the current Liberty policy document.

What I recommend is that you download the policy document on the day you renew your policy because that document will apply to your policy for the following 12 months. Most companies only show the current pollicy document on their website, Axa being an exception, they have 12 versions online, going back to 2013.

Del2005 · 02-08-2020 6:44am

coylemj wrote: »

I don't work in the insurance business, I'm just used to reading policy documents to help clear up ambiguities and sometimes to debunk urban myths in this forum. The answer to most questions about cover can be found in the policy document. We do have an insurance insider who contributes to this forum, he is very helpful when dealing with queries around claims handling.

According to my reading of the current Liberty policy document, your wife's policy would not have covered her to drive your car as her own car was not (by your reckoning) in a roadworthy condition.

Because one of the conditions for 'Driving other cars' in the Liberty policy document is:

9.you still have the insured vehicle and it holds a valid NCT and is in a roadworthy condition

That's on P.30 of the current Liberty policy document.

What I recommend is that you download the policy document on the day you renew your policy because that document will apply to your policy for the following 12 months. Most companies only show the current pollicy document on their website, Axa being an exception, they have 12 versions online, going back to 2013.

Another issue with a spouse driving a spouse's car with the "driving other cars" extension is that one of the requirements is that you don't own or have any interest in the car. Spouses are generally considered to jointly own everything, which means that you can have either spouse as main driver on a car registered to either, but makes driving a spouse's car risky unless you get it in writing its allowed or added as a named driver.

s1ippy · 02-08-2020 7:13am

Adding your spouse as a named driver on your policy almost invariably knocks the price down. Mine went down a few hundred quid.

coylemj · 02-08-2020 4:47pm

Del2005 wrote: »

Another issue with a spouse driving a spouse's car with the "driving other cars" extension is that one of the requirements is that you don't own or have any interest in the car.

Who's 'requirements'?

Liberty covers you to drive other cars, provided that ...

the other car is not owned by your spouse / partner/cohabitant or employer or hired to them under a hire- purchase or lease agreement;

While Axa has these conditions ...

you do not own the Private car or you have not hired the Private car under a hire-purchase agreement, contract of lease hire or contract hire;
the Private car is not owned by your employer or hired to them under a hire-purchase or lease agreement;

If (as you claim) there is a general condition that your spouse's 'driving other cars' cover will not apply if they drive your car because they have an 'insurable interest', why doesn't Axa do like Liberty and explicitly exclude them?

Del2005 wrote: »

Spouses are generally considered to jointly own everything....

Disagree. If joint ownership applied across the board, a married man or woman would need their spouse's consent to sell their car or any other property. And as a principle of law, it didn't even apply to the most valuable asset in most marriages - the family home. Because prior to 1976, if the house was registered in the husband's name, he could sell it without any reference to his wife - so much for joint ownership! This was fixed by the passage of the Family Home Protection Act 1976.

There was once a principle that a married man owned all of his wife's possessions but that concept was abolished by the Married Woman's Property Act 1882 which gave a married woman the right to buy, own and sell property in her own right. The effect of that act is that anything which a married woman buys in her own name is her sole property, the same as if she was a single woman - there is no automatic joint ownership with her husband.

(1) A married woman shall, in accordance with the provisions of this Act, be capable of acquiring, holding, and disposing by will or otherwise, of any real or personal property as her separate property, in the same manner as if she were a feme sole, without the intervention of any trustee.

Akrasia · 03-08-2020 11:28pm

coylemj wrote: »

Who's 'requirements'?

Liberty covers you to drive other cars, provided that ...
the other car is not owned by your spouse / partner/cohabitant or employer or hired to them under a hire- purchase or lease agreement;

While Axa has these conditions ...
you do not own the Private car or you have not hired the Private car under a hire-purchase agreement, contract of lease hire or contract hire;

the Private car is not owned by your employer or hired to them under a hire-purchase or lease agreement;

If (as you claim) there is a general condition that your spouse's 'driving other cars' cover will not apply if they drive your car because they have an 'insurable interest', why doesn't Axa do like Liberty and explicitly exclude them?

Disagree. If joint ownership applied across the board, a married man or woman would need their spouse's consent to sell their car or any other property. And as a principle of law, it didn't even apply to the most valuable asset in most marriages - the family home. Because prior to 1976, if the house was registered in the husband's name, he could sell it without any reference to his wife - so much for joint ownership! This was fixed by the passage of the Family Home Protection Act 1976.

There was once a principle that a married man owned all of his wife's possessions but that concept was abolished by the Married Woman's Property Act 1882 which gave a married woman the right to buy, own and sell property in her own right. The effect of that act is that anything which a married woman buys in her own name is her sole property, the same as if she was a single woman - there is no automatic joint ownership with her husband.

At what point do you ‘own’ a vehicle?

Is it when the registration is changed over and you get the new documents in the post?

Or when you sign the registration and pay the previous owner?

I ask because some insurance companies ask if you are the registered owner of the car before insuring you but if you buy privately you can’t be the registered owner until the seller sends the docs off and they get processed in Shannon...
How do you get the car home?

I assume my driving other cars extension covers me until the ownership changes hands?

Akrasia · 04-08-2020 12:05am

coylemj wrote: »

Who's 'requirements'?

Liberty covers you to drive other cars, provided that ...
the other car is not owned by your spouse / partner/cohabitant or employer or hired to them under a hire- purchase or lease agreement;

While Axa has these conditions ...
you do not own the Private car or you have not hired the Private car under a hire-purchase agreement, contract of lease hire or contract hire;

the Private car is not owned by your employer or hired to them under a hire-purchase or lease agreement;

If (as you claim) there is a general condition that your spouse's 'driving other cars' cover will not apply if they drive your car because they have an 'insurable interest', why doesn't Axa do like Liberty and explicitly exclude them?

Disagree. If joint ownership applied across the board, a married man or woman would need their spouse's consent to sell their car or any other property. And as a principle of law, it didn't even apply to the most valuable asset in most marriages - the family home. Because prior to 1976, if the house was registered in the husband's name, he could sell it without any reference to his wife - so much for joint ownership! This was fixed by the passage of the Family Home Protection Act 1976.

There was once a principle that a married man owned all of his wife's possessions but that concept was abolished by the Married Woman's Property Act 1882 which gave a married woman the right to buy, own and sell property in her own right. The effect of that act is that anything which a married woman buys in her own name is her sole property, the same as if she was a single woman - there is no automatic joint ownership with her husband.

At what point do you ‘own’ a vehicle?

Is it when the registration is changed over and you get the new documents in the post?

Or when you sign the registration and pay the previous owner?

I ask because some insurance companies ask if you are the registered owner of the car before insuring you but if you buy privately you can’t be the registered owner until the seller sends the docs off and they get processed in Shannon...
How do you get the car home?

I assume my driving other cars extension covers me until the ownership changes hands?

coylemj · 04-08-2020 2:14am

Akrasia wrote: »

At what point do you ‘own’ a vehicle?

When you pay the seller and he hands you the keys.

There was no need to quote my post.

Driving other cars, other car not insured

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