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HAP scheme - pros and cons for a landlord?
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I have tenants on RS who are looking to move to HAP.
What are my rights as a landord - can I refuse.
Already stuck with rent far below market rates due to RS limits, increasing market etc.
You can't really refuse, but I don't think you're limited in how much you can increase the rent, assuming it is not in a RPZ and you are not increasing above market rent.0 -
Unfortunately it's a RPZ, accicental lanlord blues....
thanks for reply
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I am not sure if L.L has a choice here? Was there a recent case where landlord was fined for not accepting HAP. I could be wrong here bit I don't think that you can discriminate especially where u have an existing tenant. Prob I see 're sale is that there is proposed legislation which says you can't use sale as excuse to end tenancy.0
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I am in the same situation. I have given notice that I am selling to my tenant. They are on the housing list and if they move the hap they are taken off and deemed housed. they can go on a transfer list to another property but that will take years.
I cannot tie myself up with hap as I cannot guarantee 2years rental. with new laws coming in we did not want to get caught unable to sell and have a sitting tenant.
The leave date is in June. I would be willing to leave them there a few more months as they are a good way up the housing list and could get somewhere in the next few months from the council.
If you sign the forms then you have to provide proof of ownership, ber, proof you have paid the property tax and NPPR. Rent in arrears so in the mean time if your tenant is on rent allowance that could stop and you get nothing. there is no transition from one to the other. If a tenant needs help with rent allowance how can they manage with HAP.
Also it can take up to 3months to get sorted for a payment to you. the council will not talk to you. If the tenant does not pay you have to deal notice letters and RTB..
The tenant pays say 25euros to a council post office account weekly and if they miss one or all of the weeks you get nothing.
At least with rent allowance if the tenant does not pay their share you get the balance from the council.
Landlords take all the risk and council sitting laughing.
If you refuse the hap the WRC can sue you for up to I think 30k.
Personally I have no problem with rent allowance but the HAP scheme is brutal.
I would say to your friend see if they can stay on rent allowance as at least they are on the housing list and may get a place sooner.
I had a tenant that was awful paying her share and every month I called over to collect the rent(140) she has now moved to another property and I dread to think what the landlord is dealing with. I had had debt collectors at the door since she left. By the way the landlord did not ring me for a reference.0 -
Thanks for all that, it's overwhelming tbh.
In my case they are already on RS so I have allready supplied all those details to Fingal.
Curent rent is 3/4 hundred below what is offered as available on the market at the moment.
The appartment has been in negative equity for years and is only now beginging to emerge.
The info for LL seems scarce. I am also not feeling comfortable with i think it's 3 years gaurantee now ?
It's a dilema for sure.0 -
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Thanks for all that, it's overwhelming tbh.
In my case they are already on RS so I have allready supplied all those details to Fingal.
Curent rent is 3/4 hundred below what is offered as available on the market at the moment.
The appartment has been in negative equity for years and is only now beginging to emerge.
The info for LL seems scarce. I am also not feeling comfortable with i think it's 3 years gaurantee now ?
It's a dilema for sure.
I am in Fingal so they must be sending out the letters to all the tenants now. Seen alot of properties up for sale lately. Only out of negative equity ourselves. Just had enough.
I think HAP is a two year contract and I dont think you can say you want to sell once the contract is in place. The information is limited for a reason!!
Some say try to delay it as much as possible. The longer they are on the old rs the more chance they getting a place and you do not have the hassle of signing up to a scheme that does not work.
I think it is 80% of cases in RTB are to do with rent not being paid. I dont know now many are to do with these type of schemes but I would say it would be high.
The minster of housing said that in June there was going to be big changes(which worries me.) some were saying that you will not be able to give notice to quit due to selling and the tenant can become a sitting tenant or you have will have to compensate them of 6months rent!!. My tenant is paying WELL below the market rent for years. I even stupidly did a reduction in the recession as well. Then with the RPZ it has made it worse.
I cannot send them a letter that I am increasing the rent as I will have to give them a contract stating the new rent..not being caught for 2years at well below the market rent and paying 52% in tax. Effectively the government are getting a lovely 2 bed for 300 a month after tax.0 -
I am in Fingal so they must be sending out the letters to all the tenants now. Seen alot of properties up for sale lately. Only out of negative equity ourselves. Just had enough.
I think HAP is a two year contract and I dont think you can say you want to sell once the contract is in place. The information is limited for a reason!!
Some say try to delay it as much as possible. The longer they are on the old rs the more chance they getting a place and you do not have the hassle of signing up to a scheme that does not work.
I think it is 80% of cases in RTB are to do with rent not being paid. I dont know now many are to do with these type of schemes but I would say it would be high.
The minster of housing said that in June there was going to be big changes(which worries me.) some were saying that you will not be able to give notice to quit due to selling and the tenant can become a sitting tenant or you have will have to compensate them of 6months rent!!. My tenant is paying WELL below the market rent for years. I even stupidly did a reduction in the recession as well. Then with the RPZ it has made it worse.
I cannot send them a letter that I am increasing the rent as I will have to give them a contract stating the new rent..not being caught for 2years at well below the market rent and paying 52% in tax. Effectively the government are getting a lovely 2 bed for 300 a month after tax.
You most certainly can serve notice to quit if you intend to sell the property within the contract or Part IV period. The proposed new laws that you mention have not been passed into law yet. So the sooner you serve the proper notice + statutory declaration (required to evict if selling during the tenancy), the better.
Even if the legislation is passed which in my view is unlikely, the law cannot be applied retrospectively.
Best of luck to you.0 -
Please don't listen to any of this nonsense written here about HAP, by people who clearly know nothing about it. Tenants pay 25 quid a week to a post office account? Er, try 170 quid a week by DD to Limerick Council (who operate HAP rents for the whole country).
There is no hiding of info from Landlords, its readily available from multiple sources.
http://hap.ie/uploads/files/pdf/landlord-booklet-english.pdf
Yes, if your tenant stops paying rent you get no rent. Exactly the same as if a regular tenant stopped paying rent you get no rent.
Yes they will inspect your home and check it meets the min standards for ALL rented homes in the country, there is no special HAP standard where you will be forced to do work. If you need to do any work its to bring it up to the min standards that you should not be below anyway!
In all respects you have the normal tenant landlord relationship and all the rules that apply to HAP tenancies such as part 4, notice periods are exactly the same as with any non HAP tenant.
Don't listen the to the lies and scare stories. Most people on HAP are working people and families who are no different to anyone else other than being low paid. That's it. People on HAP could be bad tenants, same as any other non HAP people. It has nothing to do with the council paying a percentage of their rent.0 -
FelaniaMump wrote: »Please don't listen to any of this nonsense written here about HAP, by people who clearly know nothing about it. Tenants pay 25 quid a week to a post office account? Er, try 170 quid a week by DD to Limerick Council (who operate HAP rents for the whole country).
There is no hiding of info from Landlords, its readily available from multiple sources.
http://hap.ie/uploads/files/pdf/landlord-booklet-english.pdf
Yes, if your tenant stops paying rent you get no rent. Exactly the same as if a regular tenant stopped paying rent you get no rent.
Yes they will inspect your home and check it meets the min standards for ALL rented homes in the country, there is no special HAP standard where you will be forced to do work. If you need to do any work its to bring it up to the min standards that you should not be below anyway!
In all respects you have the normal tenant landlord relationship and all the rules that apply to HAP tenancies such as part 4, notice periods are exactly the same as with any non HAP tenant.
Don't listen the to the lies and scare stories. Most people on HAP are working people and families who are no different to anyone else other than being low paid. That's it. People on HAP could be bad tenants, same as any other non HAP people. It has nothing to do with the council paying a percentage of their rent.
I thought the tenants payment to the local authority was based on a percentage of their income - ie 15 percent.
But to be paying 170 a week at 15 percent of income would be just over 1100 euro a week income the tenant has.0 -
FelaniaMump wrote: »Please don't listen to any of this nonsense written here about HAP, by people who clearly know nothing about it. Tenants pay 25 quid a week to a post office account? Er, try 170 quid a week by DD to Limerick Council (who operate HAP rents for the whole country).
There is no hiding of info from Landlords, its readily available from multiple sources.
http://hap.ie/uploads/files/pdf/landlord-booklet-english.pdf
Yes, if your tenant stops paying rent you get no rent. Exactly the same as if a regular tenant stopped paying rent you get no rent.
Yes they will inspect your home and check it meets the min standards for ALL rented homes in the country, there is no special HAP standard where you will be forced to do work. If you need to do any work its to bring it up to the min standards that you should not be below anyway!
In all respects you have the normal tenant landlord relationship and all the rules that apply to HAP tenancies such as part 4, notice periods are exactly the same as with any non HAP tenant.
Don't listen the to the lies and scare stories. Most people on HAP are working people and families who are no different to anyone else other than being low paid. That's it. People on HAP could be bad tenants, same as any other non HAP people. It has nothing to do with the council paying a percentage of their rent.
I thought the tenants payment to the local authority was based on a percentage of their income - ie 15 percent.
But to be paying 170 a week at 15 percent of income would be just over 1100 euro a week income the tenant has.0 -
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Old diesel wrote: »I thought the tenants payment to the local authority was based on a percentage of their income - ie 15 percent.
But to be paying 170 a week at 15 percent of income would be just over 1100 euro a week income the tenant has.
Where did you get 15 % from? It can be significantly more than that. Anyone earning 1100 a week would be a very long way from being eligible for HAP!0 -
FelaniaMump wrote: »Old diesel wrote: »I thought the tenants payment to the local authority was based on a percentage of their income - ie 15 percent.
But to be paying 170 a week at 15 percent of income would be just over 1100 euro a week income the tenant has.
Where did you get 15 % from? It can be significantly more than that. Anyone earning 1100 a week would be a very long way from being eligible for HAP!
I saw 15 percent of income mentioned previously as the basis of rent in social housing.
I know that people often pay a top up to the landlord too though0 -
Old diesel wrote: »I saw 15 percent of income mentioned previously as the basis of rent in social housing.
I know that people often pay a top up to the landlord too though
Don't believe everything you read on boards! It's more than 15% and a top up as well, for most people. It's very hard to find anywhere under the HAP limits, top ups are standard now0 -
If it's DD, why are some HAP tenants not paying it?FelaniaMump wrote: »Er, try 170 quid a week by DD to Limerick Council (who operate HAP rents for the whole country).0 -
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2Mad2BeMad wrote: »My ex pays 10percent of her wages a month. Plus the top up to pay the difference.
The 10percent gets taken out of her loan parents every week. So if that stops I'd assume you would set up a dd.
DD can be stopped easily though
Id say a lot of people are paying rent privately are jealous of paying 10pc on rent. Id say for a lot of renters they are paying 40-50pc on rent alone0 -
FelaniaMump wrote: »Please don't listen to any of this nonsense written here about HAP, by people who clearly know nothing about it. Tenants pay 25 quid a week to a post office account? Er, try 170 quid a week by DD to Limerick Council (who operate HAP rents for the whole country).
There is no hiding of info from Landlords, its readily available from multiple sources.
http://hap.ie/uploads/files/pdf/landlord-booklet-english.pdf
Yes, if your tenant stops paying rent you get no rent. Exactly the same as if a regular tenant stopped paying rent you get no rent.
Yes they will inspect your home and check it meets the min standards for ALL rented homes in the country, there is no special HAP standard where you will be forced to do work. If you need to do any work its to bring it up to the min standards that you should not be below anyway!
In all respects you have the normal tenant landlord relationship and all the rules that apply to HAP tenancies such as part 4, notice periods are exactly the same as with any non HAP tenant.
Don't listen the to the lies and scare stories. Most people on HAP are working people and families who are no different to anyone else other than being low paid. That's it. People on HAP could be bad tenants, same as any other non HAP people. It has nothing to do with the council paying a percentage of their rent.
It is not the normal tenant relationship you make it out to be. Yes you can have good/bad tenants on hap and private renting - i wont even go into that aspect.
If rent hasnt been paid in a private rental, you make contact with tenant directly and he tells you what is happening directly. With HAP there can be break down in communication between council and tenant or issues tenant isnt even aware that cause rent delays.
The HAP inspecection is not a minimum standard inspection and each council have their own idea of inspections. An issue i may run into in the future is changing banks and how do i get the payment to be changed. Yes its small but for privates i would contact tenant directly, provide iban info and im done. Not sure if its a call to the council or more admin work i need to go through to get that changed by the council.0 -
2Mad2BeMad wrote: »My ex pays 10percent of her wages a month. Plus the top up to pay the difference.
The 10percent gets taken out of her loan parents every week. So if that stops I'd assume you would set up a dd.
DD can be stopped easily though
Id say a lot of people are paying rent privately are jealous of paying 10pc on rent. Id say for a lot of renters they are paying 40-50pc on rent alone
The top up could be quite hefty though.0 -
FelaniaMump wrote: »Please don't listen to any of this nonsense written here about HAP, by people who clearly know nothing about it. Tenants pay 25 quid a week to a post office account? Er, try 170 quid a week by DD to Limerick Council (who operate HAP rents for the whole country).
There is no hiding of info from Landlords, its readily available from multiple sources.
http://hap.ie/uploads/files/pdf/landlord-booklet-english.pdf
Yes, if your tenant stops paying rent you get no rent. Exactly the same as private tenant
I had another tenant on sw with two kids and she paid €42 a week on rent allowance. Moved to hap and new property as we are selling and now paying €25per week.
Also another one of my x tenants was on rent allowance and working pt and paying 700euros (175per week)of her share and balance paid in rent allowance. When she moved to a new place and moved to hap she increased her hours at work to full time and now only pays 320euros(80 per week). Earning double and paying less half.
Private tenant you get some recourse as you can chase them for the funds and get an attachment order to their wages. Not as easy when on sw.
You may be set up with a direct debit but if the person is living on social welfare they are supposed pay in the post office weekly when they get their money.
Each county council use different companies to do inspections. The private companies charge for each inspection. I don't think they are Clark of works from the council.0 -
Id say a lot of people are paying rent privately are jealous of paying 10pc on rent. Id say for a lot of renters they are paying 40-50pc on rent alone
Her 10 percent is 200 a month roughly.
Plus 650 top up for a 2bed apartment
So 850 without bills. That's nothing to be jealous of to be honest.
Add in food electricity gas phone petrol insurance that monthly wage your on is gone and it struggling week by week even on HAP.
Country's a mess0 -
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2Mad2BeMad wrote: »Her 10 percent is 200 a month roughly.
Plus 650 top up for a 2bed apartment
So 850 without bills. That's nothing to be jealous of to be honest.
Add in food electricity gas phone petrol insurance that monthly wage your on is gone and it struggling week by week even on HAP.
Country's a mess
With hap there are limits to the amount the council will pay depending on the family dynamics and council you are living in.
So if you are a couple no kids you get say for fingal 900. If you go above that and you are working part or full time you pay a small about. If the council feel you cannot afford the top up you are now allowed to rent the property.If you are living on sw you cannot get more as you have to have a certain amount in your pocket to live on. Yes there is a small exemption but this applies if there is a fear of being homeless.
Your friend has picked a property above the limit for her situation. If she is single the expectation is she will share a property and not be on their own.
Either way the council are paying some rent for her. If she is paying 850 per month (roughly 212.50 a week) she must be renting with her family or she is in the city. Everyone has a choice. She can apply for a mortgage on the affordable scheme (there are issues with that) but if she is paying 850 she could afford a mortgage and she must be earning good money.0 -
From https://www.rte.ie/news/2019/0324/1038267-hap-stopped-for-650-tenants-due-to-falling-into-arrears/Figures obtained by RTÉ show that since the payment was rolled out in 2014, over 54,000 HAP tenancies have been set up.
During this period HAP support has been stopped for 665 tenancies due to non-payment of rent.0 -
The law is an ass. If you blink as a landlord re a potential HAP tenant you will be fined €2k. I am one of those landlords (accidental) that has been trying to put my apartment on the market to sell. The Hap tenant has squeezed me to the core by refusing point blank to move. Only now having spent thousands on legal fees that this individual with a court date in sight is now getting out. They too also owe me in excess of €3500 in back rent having not been paid their portion of rent for over 8 months. When I explained this to the dept of social protection they didn’t want to know yet i see on the news yesterday tenants that don’t pay their share after two months re rent will have their allowances removed. I and many other landlords are fleeing the market..... government and those on the left believe hardworking landlords that took a risk in investing are de facto the free housing association . The term land lord is equated to someone going around in cords and a cravat not someone on a bike trying to make things work...the RTB imo is just a kick the can up the road device to give tenants time to sort themselves out but offers no real protection to landlords imo apart from determination notices which then can eventually give you access to the courts. So we wonder why we have a housing crisis? I’ll tell you from my perspective ...... abusive HAP tenants have destroyed any good will by landlords to let to this market meaning decent HAPs get utterly shafted. Thousands of units in Dublin are vacant as landlords are either selling or not renting, leaving units either bought by cash or vulture funds.
The question is , who directs and advises HAP tenants to behave and flout the law ? I am certainly very very bitter on how I have been treated and this whole sorry affair getting a HAP tenant out I reckon between losing momentum in the market and costs has cost me over €15k and to refurb the unit for sale will cost me another 10k presuming the unit is thrashed.0 -
Let's do a proper quoting from the article of what having a HAP tenant means:circular flexing wrote: »
"She is a single mother with two children aged nine and 15 and is in receipt of the Housing Assistance Payment, but she was not able to keep up with total rent contribution of €80 a week."
This person could not prioritize rent of just 80 a week! And what happened (apart from the sob story the sold out media is trying to convey in order to justify the unjustifiable):
"I'm getting €256 a week and there's over €3,500 owed to the landlord plus another €750 at the end of March and I'm not in that position to pay that type of money."
The landlord is getting shafted big time and to avoid looking bad on sold out media like RTE the fool says:
Joan's landlord John Murphy says he has been left out of pocket and has not received a rental payment since November.
He says: "It means that there is a property that's not generating any funds either from the tenant or from HAP.
"It's a position where I could ask the tenant to leave but I don't. She has young children it would be difficult for me to ask someone in that situation to leave I just couldn't do it."
Now the OP can clearly see the huge risk of having a HAP tenant, the person clearly did not explain where she spent the money received from the taxpayer. Clearly she does not work at all and could not bother to spend 80 of the 256 eur she receives from the taxpayer to contribute to her rent! She did not explain what she did with all the 1280 EUR of missing contributions to rent since November.0 -
Let's do a proper quoting from the article of what having a HAP tenant means:
"She is a single mother with two children aged nine and 15 and is in receipt of the Housing Assistance Payment, but she was not able to keep up with total rent contribution of €80 a week."
This person could not prioritize rent of just 80 a week! And what happened (apart from the sob story the sold out media is trying to convey in order to justify the unjustifiable):
"I'm getting €256 a week and there's over €3,500 owed to the landlord plus another €750 at the end of March and I'm not in that position to pay that type of money."
The landlord is getting shafted big time and to avoid looking bad on sold out media like RTE the fool says:
Joan's landlord John Murphy says he has been left out of pocket and has not received a rental payment since November.
He says: "It means that there is a property that's not generating any funds either from the tenant or from HAP.
"It's a position where I could ask the tenant to leave but I don't. She has young children it would be difficult for me to ask someone in that situation to leave I just couldn't do it."
Now the OP can clearly see the huge risk of having a HAP tenant, the person clearly did not explain where she spent the money received from the taxpayer. Clearly she does not work at all and could not bother to spend 80 of the 256 eur she receives from the taxpayer to contribute to her rent! She did not explain what she did with all the 1280 EUR of missing contributions to rent since November.
While for the most part I tend to agree with your posts and find your research very informative, as the father of two teenagers I can assure you €175 a week would barely feed them. I agree HAP tenants are much less appealing than “private” renters for a variety of reasons, but this problem owes a lot to government policy.0 -
Let's do a proper quoting from the article of what having a HAP tenant means:
"She is a single mother with two children aged nine and 15 and is in receipt of the Housing Assistance Payment, but she was not able to keep up with total rent contribution of €80 a week."
This person could not prioritize rent of just 80 a week! And what happened (apart from the sob story the sold out media is trying to convey in order to justify the unjustifiable):
"I'm getting €256 a week and there's over €3,500 owed to the landlord plus another €750 at the end of March and I'm not in that position to pay that type of money."
The landlord is getting shafted big time and to avoid looking bad on sold out media like RTE the fool says:
Joan's landlord John Murphy says he has been left out of pocket and has not received a rental payment since November.
He says: "It means that there is a property that's not generating any funds either from the tenant or from HAP.
"It's a position where I could ask the tenant to leave but I don't. She has young children it would be difficult for me to ask someone in that situation to leave I just couldn't do it."
Now the OP can clearly see the huge risk of having a HAP tenant, the person clearly did not explain where she spent the money received from the taxpayer. Clearly she does not work at all and could not bother to spend 80 of the 256 eur she receives from the taxpayer to contribute to her rent! She did not explain what she did with all the 1280 EUR of missing contributions to rent since November.
I bet she has the full sky package, and spends her money elsewhere. A persons priority should be your rent as you need a roof over your head and then food and heat. The government have decided what someone can live on and if you spend your money on other things then that is your problem not the landlords problem. The 256euros does not include child benefit. Then where is the father? In the uk some of the fathers wages or benefit is stopped to pay for the children. Why can they not do that here?
The council are saving a fortune by not paying the rent to the landlord when the tenant does not pay their share. No wonder landlords are walking away.0 -
If she is in such a dire situation, she can start working to add up some extra income. It's not like she has small babies that require 24hrs attention. Her children (9 and 15) probably go to school. Plenty of foreigners in Dublin do cleaning jobs that the Irish don't want to do and receive 10eur x hour (after tax), with just 8hrs of cleaning jobs per week she could have paid her rent contributions. For me it is unjustifiable what she has done and the sob story is even worse.While for the most part I tend to agree with your posts and find your research very informative, as the father of two teenagers I can assure you €175 a week would barely feed them. I agree HAP tenants are much less appealing than “private” renters for a variety of reasons, but this problem owes a lot to government policy.
I have never been afraid of doing hard work in my life (I still clean my rental properties and help builders with cleaning up, loading and unloading when I visit Dublin), but I can tell you I can see plenty of people who are very afraid to work. Lately I called a few primary school teachers to ask for English private tutoring for my children and many of them love their free time (one told me "I work 5-6 hours a day, I do not have the time to give private tutoring at the moment!":D), then these same people complain that they do not have enough money to live in Dublin.
In Ireland it is very easy for these "unemployed" people to get some minimum wage job to complement their benefits and live a more decent life, many times it is their (bad/lazy) choices that cause the situation they are in. I only justify long term unemployment if you have serious disabilities and I have seen disabled people who actually want to work.0 -
GGTrek wrote:I have never been afraid of doing hard work in my life (I still clean my rental properties and help builders with cleaning up, loading and unloading when I visit Dublin), but I can tell you I can see plenty of people who are very afraid to work. Lately I called a few primary school teachers to ask for English private tutoring for my children and many of them love their free time (one told me "I work 5-6 hours a day, I do not have the time to give private tutoring at the moment!" ), then these same people complain that they do not have enough money to live in Dublin.GGTrek wrote:In Ireland it is very easy for these "unemployed" people to get some minimum wage job to complement their benefits and live a more decent life, many times it is their (bad/lazy) choices that cause the situation they are in. I only justify long term unemployment if you have serious disabilities and I have seen disabled people who actually want to work.
Well aren't you just great 🙄0 -
Two of my close neighbours rented through the SW - not sure whether hap or rent allowance. In both instances they wete unlucky to get scangers & chancers. One 'slipped on a mat' (while drunk) and is suing & the other said there was a draughr coming in the door and she now has a bad shoulder and is threatining to sue. Personally I'd keep to the working market where people can afford to pay their bills & are not permenently living on the make snd where you are not worrying about them living from weekly financial crisis to crisis and not complying with their social welfare conditions to pay their way and for you to be paid for the services they have already recieved.0
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JustAThought wrote: »Two of my close neighbours rented through the SW - not sure whether hap or rent allowance. In both instances they wete unlucky to get scangers & chancers. One 'slipped on a mat' (while drunk) and is suing & the other said there was a draughr coming in the door and she now has a bad shoulder and is threatining to sue. Personally I'd keep to the working market where people can afford to pay their bills & are not permenently living on the make snd where you are not worrying about them living from weekly financial crisis to crisis and not complying with their social welfare conditions to pay their way and for you to be paid for the services they have already recieved.
You can be on HAP and working - that was actually one of the reasons HAP was bought in.
As for being able to pay their bills - the mega rents been charged today mean that the amount of people that can pay their bills is decreasing0
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