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Gave tenant notice now cc ask they to move to Hap

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  • 22-03-2019 10:52am
    #1
    tvjunki
    Registered Users Posts: 601 ✭✭✭


    I have a tenant for a number of years on rent allowance.

    Gave them notice we are selling. Had enough of what the government are doing. Biggest fear is we have to sell with a sitting tenant. Already have one property up for sale. With cash flow would prefer to leave them there for a few months until first house is sold.

    They are quite high on the housing list so should get a place in less than 6months They left a copy the notice letter into the council. We were happy for them to stay a few extra months so they can get their council property. Don't know why we are so generous as initially they lied that they were private tenants and ended up on rent allowance. Have taken rental allowance from other tenants have have no problem with the scheme but not hap.

    Well they received a letter they should now apply for Hap.
    If they apply we cannot accept it as we have given them notice and cannot sign up for 2years. If they apply they are taken off the housing list and deemed housed and they are then on a transfer list..(this is not our problem)

    What do you think they should do? Can they stay on rent allowance until sorted with a new place or council property?

    For us we are happy for them to stay a few months more but cannot retract notice letter as we would have to give them 7months notice again and as they gave been asked to move to hap it would look like we have turned them down due to hap. We are not paying compensation to them as in the case of some landlords. We kept the rent very low(stupid we know) as they looked after the house and have no issues with them. 400euro below the market rent.


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Comments

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    #2
    amcalester
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,121 ✭✭✭amcalester


    I can see you getting screwed over here, if you refuse to accept HAP then you could end up in the WRC but if you accept then you tenants are unlikely to be housed by the council in the next few months.

    No advice to offer though.


  • Options
    #3
    Cuddlesworth
    Registered Users Posts: 13,980 ✭✭✭✭Cuddlesworth


    The WRC isn't stupid, although councils usually are. Go through the process, until you get to the 2 years part and refuse to sell on the grounds that notice was give and the tenant is to leave in X days.


  • Options
    #4
    Mokuba
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,690 ✭✭✭Mokuba


    For them to be accepted for HAP you have to provide numerous things such as proof of ownership, tax info etc, you have to fill out half of the HAP form.

    If you have already issued them with a notice then why would you enter into a HAP agreement with them.

    Just don't. They can get approved for HAP, but at another property that they will have to source themselves.

    You say they are near the top of the "list" - but Councils are using a Choice Based Letting system and if they aren't expressing an interest in properties or are expressing an interest in unsuitable properties e.g under or over their approved bed size then they will not get housed.


  • Options
    #5
    tvjunki
    Registered Users Posts: 601 ✭✭✭tvjunki


    Mokuba wrote: »
    For them to be accepted for HAP you have to provide numerous things such as proof of ownership, tax info etc, you have to fill out half of the HAP form.

    If you have already issued them with a notice then why would you enter into a HAP agreement with them.

    Just don't. They can get approved for HAP, but at another property that they will have to source themselves.

    You say they are near the top of the "list" - but Councils are using a Choice Based Letting system and if they aren't expressing an interest in properties or are expressing an interest in unsuitable properties e.g under or over their approved bed size then they will not get housed.

    They were 50 on the list last year and have never been offered a place in the 12years they are on the housing list. I have another tenant (couple)with no kids and they got a place within 5months and they were about 50 on the list. There is quite a bit of building out where we are(a lot of council land) so assuming they will get a place within 6months.
    They applied to get a council place in just one area(I think). Are they supposed to check a website or just get a yearly notification?

    As they have just received a letter mentioning they are on rent allowance and that they should move to hap how long would they have to apply? Can they contact the council and say they are trading to negotiate with the landlord to stay longer and if it was possible if they can stay on rent allowance.

    We definately cannot go through hap as we cannot tie the house up for 2years...then all the paperwork.
    The thing is the government know everything, they know what you own, how much you are getting etc.
    If they apply for Hap they are not going to get anywhere. Everyone and their mother is applying for this scheme. There are very few places available without being on a hap. I seem on ad on Facebook and within 24hours 60 people applied asking for Hap. I did not see anyone mention they were private. When you read between the lines they are on hap.. all this does is reduce the council housing list.


  • Options
    #6
    tvjunki
    Registered Users Posts: 601 ✭✭✭tvjunki


    amcalester wrote: »
    I can see you getting screwed over here, if you refuse to accept HAP then you could end up in the WRC but if you accept then you tenants are unlikely to be housed by the council in the next few months.

    No advice to offer though.

    Getting screwed either way, can't sign for 2years as want to sell. Receiving below the market rent for years. Had to top up mortgage for years. Just don't want to do this anymore.


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    #7
    tvjunki
    Registered Users Posts: 601 ✭✭✭tvjunki


    Cuddlesworth wrote: »
    The WRC isn't stupid, although councils usually are. Go through the process, until you get to the 2 years part and refuse to sell on the grounds that notice was give and the tenant is to leave in X days.

    They were given notice last year up to June this year. We are happy to wait for a few months passed that date but do not want to be forced into doing a scheme. Petrified about what Minister for housing has planned for June. Being forced to sell with a sitting tenant is our biggest fear..

    So do they wait a month from the letter and apply we fill in the form and give no information they require? In the mean time does their rent stop?


  • Options
    #8
    tvjunki
    Registered Users Posts: 601 ✭✭✭tvjunki


    Mokuba wrote: »
    For them to be accepted for HAP you have to provide numerous things such as proof of ownership, tax info etc, you have to fill out half of the HAP form.

    If you have already issued them with a notice then why would you enter into a HAP agreement with them.

    Just don't. They can get approved for HAP, but at another property that they will have to source themselves.

    You say they are near the top of the "list" - but Councils are using a Choice Based Letting system and if they aren't expressing an interest in properties or are expressing an interest in unsuitable properties e.g under or over their approved bed size then they will not get housed.



    Here is the thing they have to find a place first and there is nothing. As soon as we mentioned the notice they said they may go back home at Christmas is they have no council property at that stage. Their English is not the best so they are up against it.


  • Options
    #9
    Mundo7976
    Registered Users Posts: 1,097 ✭✭✭Mundo7976


    tvjunki wrote: »
    I have a tenant for a number of years on rent allowance.

    Gave them notice we are selling. Had enough of what the government are doing. Biggest fear is we have to sell with a sitting tenant. Already have one property up for sale. With cash flow would prefer to leave them there for a few months until first house is sold.

    If you’re worried about cash flow, dont, the below will cost you much more in the long run.

    They are quite high on the housing list so should get a place in less than 6months They left a copy the notice letter into the council. We were happy for them to stay a few extra months so they can get their council property. Don't know why we are so generous as initially they lied that they were private tenants and ended up on rent allowance. Have taken rental allowance from other tenants have have no problem with the scheme but not hap.

    High or low, its not your problem, they will leave you high and dry when it suits, especially as they lied to get your property in the first place.



    Well they received a letter they should now apply for Hap.
    If they apply we cannot accept it as we have given them notice and cannot sign up for 2years. If they apply they are taken off the housing list and deemed housed and they are then on a transfer list..(this is not our problem)
    What do you think they should do? Can they stay on rent allowance until sorted with a new place or council property?

    Why are you worried what they should do, you said it yourself, not your problem

    For us we are happy for them to stay a few months more but cannot retract notice letter as we would have to give them 7months notice again and as they gave been asked to move to hap it would look like we have turned them down due to hap. We are not paying compensation to them as in the case of some landlords. We kept the rent very low(stupid we know) as they looked after the house and have no issues with them. 400euro below the market rent.

    Youve been kind enough already, youve given correct notice? Sold yourself short! Time to get tough for your own sanity!


  • Options
    #10
    Mokuba
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,690 ✭✭✭Mokuba


    tvjunki wrote: »
    They were 50 on the list last year and have never been offered a place in the 12years they are on the housing list. I have another tenant (couple)with no kids and they got a place within 5months and they were about 50 on the list. There is quite a bit of building out where we are(a lot of council land) so assuming they will get a place within 6months.
    They applied to get a council place in just one area(I think). Are they supposed to check a website or just get a yearly notification?

    As they have just received a letter mentioning they are on rent allowance and that they should move to hap how long would they have to apply? Can they contact the council and say they are trading to negotiate with the landlord to stay longer and if it was possible if they can stay on rent allowance.

    We definately cannot go through hap as we cannot tie the house up for 2years...then all the paperwork.
    The thing is the government know everything, they know what you own, how much you are getting etc.
    If they apply for Hap they are not going to get anywhere. Everyone and their mother is applying for this scheme. There are very few places available without being on a hap. I seem on ad on Facebook and within 24hours 60 people applied asking for Hap. I did not see anyone mention they were private. When you read between the lines they are on hap.. all this does is reduce the council housing list.


    I know the majority of County Councils are using a Choice Based Letting system for the allocation of housing. Example - http://www.waterfordcouncil.ie/departments/housing/cbl-faqs.htm

    Choice Based Letting is a system whereby the County Council advertises properties that they are offering to approved applicants. This list of properties is refreshed weekly and thus should be checked weekly. If the applicant is interested in the property they express an official interest in it via the website. If the applicant does not express an interest in a property they will not be considered for it. If the applicant expresses an interest in an unsuitable property (e.g too big or too small depending on their bed size approval) it is unlikely they will be considered for it.

    Most Councils aren't using a typical list system anymore - while it is true that length of time approved is relevant, it is just one factor used when deciding who is allocated a social house. As I said above, if your tenants are not using CBL they will not be housed.

    People getting removed from the housing list when being on HAP is a misconception. Nobody gets removed anymore - there is a box to tick to say you want to remain on the list when applying for HAP, why wouldn't you tick it? So theoretically they could be on HAP and still be offered a social house provided they are using CBL.

    You have given the notice. They can be approved for HAP but they will be approved for it at another location seeing as you have given a valid notice.


  • Options
    #11
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Mundo7976 wrote: »
    Youve been kind enough already, youve given correct notice? Sold yourself short! Time to get tough for your own sanity!

    I have to agree. You are going above and beyond, which will only cause you more heartache in the long-run. You've given them notice, they have to find a new gaff and move out on/before that date. What happens to them after that is none of your business. You keep asking "what are their options", when in reality they have only one......find a new landlord. HAP, rent allowance, the council etc. have S.F.A. to do with you now.


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    #12
    JustMe,K
    Registered Users Posts: 610 ✭✭✭JustMe,K


    How far into their notice are they? It can take a couple of months for paperwork to be finalised for HAP, its not as simple as filling in a form and then they have it the next week.

    You are in a very tricky situation, I dont think you are allowed to refuse to accept them changing to HAP as you would be deemed to be causing them financial hardship. From what I remember, it was encouraged but not essential that a landlord signs up for a minimum of 2 years.

    I would call the council and the RTB for advice on this particular situation before going any further. I would be very weary of letting the tenants stay longer than their notice, because if they have any intention of overholding you are making it easy for them, and it will take longer for you to get your property back. Even the best tenants can become a nightmare towards the end of their tenancy and although I understand you trying to be decent, you are likely going to end up making things a lot harder for yourself.


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    #13
    FishOnABike
    Registered Users Posts: 4,349 ✭✭✭FishOnABike


    Is it possible to fill in the forms accepting HAP but only up to the date you gave already given in your termination of tenancy notice?


  • Options
    #14
    GGTrek
    Registered Users Posts: 834 ✭✭✭GGTrek


    tvjunki wrote: »
    They were given notice last year up to June this year. We are happy to wait for a few months passed that date but do not want to be forced into doing a scheme. Petrified about what harris has planned for June. Being forced to sell with a sitting tenant is our biggest fear..

    So do they wait a month from the letter and apply we fill in the form and give no information they require? In the mean time does their rent stop?
    What you are doing is very risky. If the notice you gave for sale is valid (verify it first with an experienced tenancy law solicitor) after it expires, the tenants are overholding and you have on average two months to enforce it after such expiry by presenting a dispute request at the RTB. If you wait beyond this period, there is a good chance that the adjudicator will make the pro-tenant assumption that the notice you served was implicitly withdrawn.
    Absolutely do not provide anything written saying that you are fine for your tenants to stay a few more months, it will be assumed you have withdrawn your termination notice.
    You only negotiate the few months more at the RTB where the adjudicator will draft an enforceable agreement that you can take straight to District Court if the tenants don't move out by the agreed date. The law and its "arbitrators" (this is a big word for the RTB kangaroo court) are against you and you need to protect yourself.


  • Options
    #15
    GGTrek
    Registered Users Posts: 834 ✭✭✭GGTrek


    kcdiom wrote: »
    How far into their notice are they? It can take a couple of months for paperwork to be finalised for HAP, its not as simple as filling in a form and then they have it the next week.

    You are in a very tricky situation, I dont think you are allowed to refuse to accept them changing to HAP as you would be deemed to be causing them financial hardship. From what I remember, it was encouraged but not essential that a landlord signs up for a minimum of 2 years.

    I would call the council and the RTB for advice on this particular situation before going any further. I would be very weary of letting the tenants stay longer than their notice, because if they have any intention of overholding you are making it easy for them, and it will take longer for you to get your property back. Even the best tenants can become a nightmare towards the end of their tenancy and although I understand you trying to be decent, you are likely going to end up making things a lot harder for yourself.
    This is great advice that the OP should follow to the letter


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    #16
    Mundo7976
    Registered Users Posts: 1,097 ✭✭✭Mundo7976


    “As soon as we mentioned the notice they said they may go back home at Christmas is they have no council property at that stage”

    Also sounds like a delay/holding tactic.


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    #17
    tvjunki
    Registered Users Posts: 601 ✭✭✭tvjunki


    Mundo7976 wrote: »
    Youve been kind enough already, youve given correct notice? Sold yourself short! Time to get tough for your own sanity!

    Thank you I feel so stupid as it is.


  • Options
    #18
    tvjunki
    Registered Users Posts: 601 ✭✭✭tvjunki


    kcdiom wrote: »
    How far into their notice are they? It can take a couple of months for paperwork to be finalised for HAP, its not as simple as filling in a form and then they have it the next week.

    You are in a very tricky situation, I dont think you are allowed to refuse to accept them changing to HAP as you would be deemed to be causing them financial hardship. From what I remember, it was encouraged but not essential that a landlord signs up for a minimum of 2 years.

    I would call the council and the RTB for advice on this particular situation before going any further. I would be very weary of letting the tenants stay longer than their notice, because if they have any intention of overholding you are making it easy for them, and it will take longer for you to get your property back. Even the best tenants can become a nightmare towards the end of their tenancy and although I understand you trying to be decent, you are likely going to end up making things a lot harder for yourself.

    We gave them notice in November and gave them 7months instead of statutory 6months. Their daughter was over and went to the council last month with a copy of the letter thinking they would get up the housing list and what was said was we will take a copy when you get close to the date contact threshold and the week you have to leave call into the council.

    I will get onto RTB and the council on Monday and have my facts in order and see what is said.
    I seem to always make things harder for myself.


  • Options
    #19
    tvjunki
    Registered Users Posts: 601 ✭✭✭tvjunki


    GGTrek wrote: »
    What you are doing is very risky. If the notice you gave for sale is valid (verify it first with an experienced tenancy law solicitor) after it expires, the tenants are overholding and you have on average two months to enforce it after such expiry by presenting a dispute request at the RTB. If you wait beyond this period, there is a good chance that the adjudicator will make the pro-tenant assumption that the notice you served was implicitly withdrawn.
    Absolutely do not provide anything written saying that you are fine for your tenants to stay a few more months, it will be assumed you have withdrawn your termination notice.
    You only negotiate the few months more at the RTB where the adjudicator will draft an enforceable agreement that you can take straight to District Court if the tenants don't move out by the agreed date. The law and its "arbitrators" (this is a big word for the RTB kangaroo court) are against you and you need to protect yourself.

    God this is getting worse. Thank you for putting the writing on the wall. So not only are we will have to engage an tenancy lawyer we may have to go through RTB(been there got the t shirt and came out the other side with a solicitors fees of 4k and we WON the case)

    No no you are right. Have to make sure we are safe and we can get our house back.


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    #20
    tuisginideach
    Registered Users Posts: 2,051 ✭✭✭tuisginideach


    You gave (presumably correct) notice. Surely that's it. You are not under any obligation to do any more.


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    #21
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    tuisginideach wrote: »
    You gave (presumably correct) notice. Surely that's it. You are not under any obligation to do any more.

    I think it muddies the water if you do. It makes it look like you aren't really going to sell.


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    #22
    RioSafari
    Registered Users Posts: 12 ✭RioSafari


    I was in a very similar situation as you. We were asked by our tenant to agree to sign up with HAP. We wanted to sell and this seems like a good time so we gave the tenant the required notice. The time came and she had nowhere to go. We extended informally for a few weeks.

    I happened to call Threshold, who told me that a new investment fund was buying rental property with sitting tenants- but here's the kicker- they have to be on HAP.

    Anyway, that was six weeks ago. We're now sale agreed at full market value, deposit is with my solicitor and our application for HAP is with the county council. As soon as we are approved for HAP, we'll close the sale.
    All done in less than 3 months and would have been even quicker if the tenant was already on HAP.

    It's Fingal County Council by the way


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    #23
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    What's the name of the fund....


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    #24
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    What's the name of the fund....


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    #25
    RioSafari
    Registered Users Posts: 12 ✭RioSafari


    The fund is Roundshield from the UK and the intermediary here is New Beginnings


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    #26
    tvjunki
    Registered Users Posts: 601 ✭✭✭tvjunki


    RioSafari wrote: »
    I was in a very similar situation as you. We were asked by our tenant to agree to sign up with HAP. We wanted to sell and this seems like a good time so we gave the tenant the required notice. The time came and she had nowhere to go. We extended informally for a few weeks.

    I happened to call Threshold, who told me that a new investment fund was buying rental property with sitting tenants- but here's the kicker- they have to be on HAP.

    Anyway, that was six weeks ago. We're now sale agreed at full market value, deposit is with my solicitor and our application for HAP is with the county council. As soon as we are approved for HAP, we'll close the sale.
    All done in less than 3 months and would have been even quicker if the tenant was already on HAP.

    It's Fingal County Council by the way


    That is crazy you have to set up and sign for Hap and then you can sell to threshold.


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    #27
    The_Conductor
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,278 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    tvjunki wrote: »
    That is crazy you have to set up and sign for Hap and then you can sell to threshold.

    Its not Threshold who are buying- its the UK crowd- and while they want HAP tenants, insitu- woe betide any tenant who steps out of line.........


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    #28
    tvjunki
    Registered Users Posts: 601 ✭✭✭tvjunki


    The_Conductor wrote: »
    Its not Threshold who are buying- its the UK crowd- and while they want HAP tenants, insitu- woe betide any tenant who steps out of line.........

    Sorry read it wrong. Is threshold an intermediary for the purchase houses with sitting tenants? What if the rent you are getting us below the market rent? This new company will give the tenants notice for refurbishment soon enough.
    Personally I would prefer the property empty so we can choose who to sell to. May get a better price than with a investment company.


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    #29
    tvjunki
    Registered Users Posts: 601 ✭✭✭tvjunki


    Well got a reply from RTB....

    They said we can refuse hap only if I can proof financial distress...what does that mean?

    Basically I have to sign up even though we have given them notice to quit.
    So now have to waste the councils time and our time checking forms and proof if id, ownership papers, proof nppr has been paid, proof property tax paid, tax clearance, Proof of bank account fill form(cannot give contract which you need when you sign up the hap) Pure madness.

    Onto the council next to see what their response is...


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    #30
    Ray Palmer
    Registered Users Posts: 8,351 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    You need proper legal advice here. RTB cannot insist you rent a property if you already have given notice to sell before they applied.
    You have to be very clear on the timeline and remember a PRTB staff is not a legal authority. They get stuff wrong.
    You aren't refusing HAP you have nothing to rent.


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    #31
    The_Conductor
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,278 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    tvjunki wrote: »
    Sorry read it wrong. Is threshold an intermediary for the purchase houses with sitting tenants? What if the rent you are getting us below the market rent? This new company will give the tenants notice for refurbishment soon enough.
    Personally I would prefer the property empty so we can choose who to sell to. May get a better price than with a investment company.

    Threshold are a tenant advocacy group, state funded, to push tenant's rights. Threshold will not assist you- nor will they advise you in any manner- as you're not a tenant. Threshold will actively advise tenants to do whatever they have to do- to keep themselves in a property- even if this means overholding and/or changing the contract etc- even after valid notice of termination of tenancy has issued. Threshold are on the record issuing illegal or dubious advice- they never get hauled up on it though- because landlords don't chase tenants when it costs a landlord money but the tenant has nothing to loose.

    You issued a valid termination of tenancy.
    You are not under any obligation to do anything- other than point this out to the tenant. You are not refusing to accept HAP- you are simply ending the tenancy, validly, for the purpose of selling the property- and presumably have served correct and accurate notice to the tenant along with the statutory declaration.

    Make 100% sure you have all our documentation in order.

    I'd also suggest you contact the local authority and explain the situation to them- as the tenant has obviously told them some story. They cannot rent a new property under HAP for less than 2 years (to the best of my knowledge). It looks like the local authority are trying to bounce you into not selling- and instead renting to the current tenants for the foreseeable future- despite you already having served statutory notice to the tenant.


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