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Dart + (Coolmine LC closure issues)

12467…11

Comments

  • #92
    D15er
    Closed Accounts Posts: 94 ✭✭D15er


    Fiddle Castro wrote: »
    Where do you think the traffic would divert?

    Through residential roads that were not designed for it like Roselawn Road, Glenville & Delwood.

    I don't think those residents would be too happy having their roads turned into rat runs.

    No, they won't like it.

    But by the logic of this thread, all we need to do is cut down all their trees, build new roads through their green spaces, demolish a few houses and then the roads will be designed for it, and if anyone complains they're just NIMBYs.

    This planning thing is a breeze actually.


  • #93
    BonnieSituation
    Registered Users Posts: 18,921 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    D15er wrote: »
    No, they won't like it.

    But by the logic of this thread, all we need to do is cut down all their trees, build new roads through their green spaces, demolish a few houses and then the roads will be designed for it, and if anyone complains they're just NIMBYs.

    This planning thing is a breeze actually.

    That's exactly what's going on here. You've cracked it.

    I mean, you're all for not planning for future expansion "to save money" sure.


  • #94
    liamog
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 7,792 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    D15er wrote: »
    But by the logic of this thread, all we need to do is cut down all their trees, build new roads through their green spaces, demolish a few houses and then the roads will be designed for it, and if anyone complains they're just NIMBYs.

    No, you only get accused of nimbyism when you turn the demolition of a single house into a few houses, report that a two lane distributor road into an estate is not designed to carry two lanes of traffic, and that a residential street in Riverwood will be carrying lot's of traffic when in fact it's just the entrance that will be reconfigured and the traffic will in fact not be going down the road which peoples houses are fronted onto.


  • #95
    D15er
    Closed Accounts Posts: 94 ✭✭D15er


    Nimbyism is the most hypocritical thing anyone can say.

    Look at how exercised people are about something that doesn't impact them directly. People who will never set eyes on this bridge have made it their life's mission to see it built. People who have never been down these streets in their lives claim to have forensic knowledge of them. The level of rage is incredible. Genuinely unsettling.

    I shudder to think how the same people would react if the bridge was being built outside their house.

    Or maybe people are going to claim they'd welcome the bulldozers with open arms?


  • #96
    IE 222
    Registered Users Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭IE 222


    D15er wrote: »
    Nimbyism is the most hypocritical thing anyone can say.

    Look at how exercised people are about something that doesn't impact them directly. People who will never set eyes on this bridge have made it their life's mission to see it built. People who have never been down these streets in their lives claim to have forensic knowledge of them. The level of rage is incredible. Genuinely unsettling.

    I shudder to think how the same people would react if the bridge was being built outside their house.

    Or maybe people are going to claim they'd welcome the bulldozers with open arms?

    Did you not already tell us you don't live within the vicinity of the bridge and just merely a rail user who commutes via Coolmine station.


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  • #97
    liamog
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 7,792 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    All I'm asking is that you realistically present the situation so potential improvements to the options can be found, I asked you a couple of question recently which got lost in the thread.
    liamog wrote: »
    The traffic will be travelling down 50m of road at the Riverwood side, which will be rebuilt as part of the junction works. Would you agree that this will now be designed to handle the level of traffic?

    On the northside, the traffic will be two lanes of traffic down 350m of the existing two lane distributor road (St Mochtas Grove) towards the junction with Clonsilla Road, would you agree that the two lane road is in fact designed to carry two lane's of traffic.


  • #98
    Pete_Cavan
    Registered Users Posts: 6,702 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    I think the local aspects of this should be left to the thread in the Dublin 15 subforum rather than constantly dragging this thread into the same circular argument.


  • #99
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,169 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    D15er wrote: »
    Nimbyism is the most hypocritical thing anyone can say.

    Look at how exercised people are about something that doesn't impact them directly. People who will never set eyes on this bridge have made it their life's mission to see it built. People who have never been down these streets in their lives claim to have forensic knowledge of them. The level of rage is incredible. Genuinely unsettling.

    I shudder to think how the same people would react if the bridge was being built outside their house.

    Or maybe people are going to claim they'd welcome the bulldozers with open arms?


    I am 12 minutes walk from Coolmine Train station and I know the area at least as well as you, if not better. I fully support the Irish Rail proposal.

    I will be directly affected if the level crossing is kept open as I will see increased road traffic congestion plus the train service to the City centre will not be as good.

    The majority of people in the area would be similarly affected and would agree with me if it was explained to them without the emotional blackmail and disingenuous implications.


  • #100
    D15er
    Closed Accounts Posts: 94 ✭✭D15er


    blanch152 wrote: »
    I am 12 minutes walk from Coolmine Train station and I know the area at least as well as you, if not better. I fully support the Irish Rail proposal.

    I will be directly affected if the level crossing is kept open as I will see increased road traffic congestion plus the train service to the City centre will not be as good.

    The majority of people in the area would be similarly affected and would agree with me if it was explained to them without the emotional blackmail and disingenuous implications.

    You've misread my post. In fact, you've completely agreed with it.

    You're all for it because the changes are entirely positive for you. So of course you're on board, why wouldn't you be? A better train service, an easier path across the canal in your car, there's no downside for you.

    My only point was that if you were living in Station Court or St Mochta's or Riverwood, you would have a totally different perspective. So I think it's unfair for people to be so dismissive about local objections because they're looking at it through a totally different lens.

    I just think a little bit of understanding of the impact this will have on people directly affected wouldn't go amiss. Anyone living in these streets would react the exact same way. Of course they would.

    The question is where that balance lies, between massive impact on a small number of people versus a decent benefit for a much larger number. My perspective is that it has swung too far in one direction with what IE are proposing - but there's no objective right or wrong here, only perspectives.

    Edit: to re-emphasise. I don't live in an estate that will be directly affected.


  • #101
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,359 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Mod: This thread is to be about the closure of the Coolmine and other level crossings on the Dart + project. Please restrict it to this.


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  • #102
    liamog
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 7,792 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    D15er wrote: »
    The question is where that balance lies, between massive impact on a small number of people versus a decent benefit for a much larger number. My perspective is that it has swung too far in one direction with what IE are proposing - but there's no objective right or wrong here, only perspectives.

    I think most of us believe calling the change a "massive impact" is overegging it a bit. Especially on the Riverwood Side, they'll see a reconfiguration of the entrance to the estate. House's will still be further away from the new main road than other properties are from the existing main road. It's a change, but it's not like they'll now have many cars driving right out side their house.

    Hopefully Irish Rail will create some renders of the supposed changes, that should put it more into perspective for those affected.


  • #103
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,240 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    These are more related to the Clonsilla level crossing, but may be of interest.

    https://consult.fingal.ie/en/consultation/kellystown-road-%E2%80%93-non-statutory-public-engagement

    https://consult.fingal.ie/en/consultation/draft-local-area-plan-kellystown-dublin-15


  • #104
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Man there is a lot of padding in that, from other studies. ...
    ...Coolmine LC closing doesn't seem to much of a consideration.


  • #105
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,169 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    D15er wrote: »
    No, they won't like it.

    But by the logic of this thread, all we need to do is cut down all their trees, build new roads through their green spaces, demolish a few houses and then the roads will be designed for it, and if anyone complains they're just NIMBYs.

    This planning thing is a breeze actually.

    Grenville and Delwood will see hugely reduced traffic if the level crossing is closed at Coolmine, because the rat-runs will be eliminated.


  • #106
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,169 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    D15er wrote: »
    You've misread my post. In fact, you've completely agreed with it.

    You're all for it because the changes are entirely positive for you. So of course you're on board, why wouldn't you be? A better train service, an easier path across the canal in your car, there's no downside for you[/“

    Edit: to re-emphasise. I don't live in an estate that will be directly affected.

    Wait a minute, I can rat-run through Glenville and Delwood at the moment, so the closure inconveniences me when travelling by car as I have to stick to the Clonsilla Road to access Stationcourt Road. So the proposals leave me worse off for some car journeys.

    However, this is far outweighed by the improve,ent that the project brings to rail in D15.


  • #107
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Can't see it. Roselawn still has a 24hr shopping center, a school and a health center, and a pub, and a Train station.
    Its the best way to avoid going through Blanch Village for many journeys. It will be the way to avoid Riverwood etc.
    It may also get Green-way access.
    They may also open Rockfield to Station Court. That would take the pressure of Coolmine Cross.

    This thread is still 100% car focused. Commuting at peak aswell.


  • #108
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,282 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    do people regard delwood road as a rat run? i'd always assumed it was a through road as much as a road intended for the residents of the estate.


  • #109
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    I would say the a lot of the traffic local journeys. Unlike something like diswellstown road where a lot of the traffic is just driving straight through. But then they didn't put in ramps for fun either.


  • #110
    Fiddle Castro
    Registered Users Posts: 78 ✭✭Fiddle Castro


    beauf wrote: »
    Can't see it. Roselawn still has a 24hr shopping center, a school and a health center, and a pub, and a Train station.
    Its the best way to avoid going through Blanch Village for many journeys. It will be the way to avoid Riverwood etc.
    It may also get Green-way access.
    They may also open Rockfield to Station Court. That would take the pressure of Coolmine Cross.

    This thread is still 100% car focused. Commuting at peak aswell.

    FYI Tesco Roeslawn hasn't been 24 hour for a few years.


  • #111
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    I think they stopped in 2014. Its open till 11pm anyway.


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  • #112
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,169 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    beauf wrote: »
    Can't see it. Roselawn still has a 24hr shopping center, a school and a health center, and a pub, and a Train station.
    Its the best way to avoid going through Blanch Village for many journeys. It will be the way to avoid Riverwood etc.
    It may also get Green-way access.
    They may also open Rockfield to Station Court. That would take the pressure of Coolmine Cross.

    This thread is still 100% car focused. Commuting at peak aswell.

    Tesco isn't open 24 hours, not for a long time.

    Roselawn Road will still be used, but not for those trying to access Coolmine level crossing as an alternative to Laurel Lodge.


  • #113
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Lol...


  • #114
    IE 222
    Registered Users Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭IE 222


    Ashtown residents submitted their proposals. They seem to have a grasp and understanding of the kind impacts of keeping the crossing open will bring. Not sure why their views on health, safety and environmental grounds of keeping the crossing open seem to be getting completely rubbished or ignored in Coolmine.

    Reading between the Coolmine and Ashtown residents would lead you to believe there is 2 completely different Dart services been purposed here.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/RCPCA1/status/1318301895019106305/photo/2


  • #115
    CatInABox
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,231 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    IE 222 wrote: »
    Ashtown residents submitted their proposals. They seem to have a grasp and understanding of the kind impacts of keeping the crossing open will bring. Not sure why their views on health, safety and environmental grounds of keeping the crossing open seem to be getting completely rubbished or ignored in Coolmine.

    Reading between the Coolmine and Ashtown residents would lead you to believe there is 2 completely different Dart services been purposed here.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/RCPCA1/status/1318301895019106305/photo/2

    RCPCA is a pretty good group, I haven't seen all of their stuff, but the ones I have seen have shown them to be very considered and forward thinking.


  • #116
    D15er
    Closed Accounts Posts: 94 ✭✭D15er


    Posted this in the D15 forum, but basically the Ashtown and Coolmine proposals are so different, trying to compare the residents' reactions is a bit pointless.

    An underpass has much less visual impact than a bridge so it naturally would generate much less opposition. It is also rerouting the main traffic flow further away from residential areas. There is some loss of green space at Martin Savage Park which isn't ideal obviously.

    All in all, the Ashtown proposal looks like a good plan. It's a pity an underpass isn't viable at Coolmine because it would be a much easier sell.


  • #117
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    CatInABox wrote: »
    RCPCA is a pretty good group, I haven't seen all of their stuff, but the ones I have seen have shown them to be very considered and forward thinking.

    Do the same thing in both locations, everyone can be reasonable then.


  • #118
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    D15er wrote: »
    ...
    All in all, the Ashtown proposal looks like a good plan. It's a pity an underpass isn't viable at Coolmine because it would be a much easier sell.

    By not putting in a underpass at coolmine they are just being unreasonable...:)


  • #119
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,169 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    IE 222 wrote: »
    Ashtown residents submitted their proposals. They seem to have a grasp and understanding of the kind impacts of keeping the crossing open will bring. Not sure why their views on health, safety and environmental grounds of keeping the crossing open seem to be getting completely rubbished or ignored in Coolmine.

    Reading between the Coolmine and Ashtown residents would lead you to believe there is 2 completely different Dart services been purposed here.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/RCPCA1/status/1318301895019106305/photo/2

    That reads extremely reasonably and the comments are very fair. An absence of hysteria and serious consideration of the documentation led to a very good submission.


  • #120
    IE 222
    Registered Users Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭IE 222


    blanch152 wrote: »
    That reads extremely reasonably and the comments are very fair. An absence of hysteria and serious consideration of the documentation led to a very good submission.

    It helps when you base your response on actual facts rather than altering the criteria. Telling people 15 trains won't be achievable and making comparison to other crossings such as Lansdowne and Sutton and new bus routes are been added ect. is not going to lead to a fair and reasonable debate. Most of their objections are contradictory to what they want.

    Not once have I seen any of the objectors explain what great benefits increased frequencies bring. The message seems to be more trains = more cars.


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  • #121
    IE 222
    Registered Users Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭IE 222


    D15er wrote: »
    Posted this in the D15 forum, but basically the Ashtown and Coolmine proposals are so different, trying to compare the residents' reactions is a bit pointless.

    An underpass has much less visual impact than a bridge so it naturally would generate much less opposition. It is also rerouting the main traffic flow further away from residential areas. There is some loss of green space at Martin Savage Park which isn't ideal obviously.

    All in all, the Ashtown proposal looks like a good plan. It's a pity an underpass isn't viable at Coolmine because it would be a much easier sell.

    Well they seem to focus their decision on the importance of closing the crossing to avoid the negative consequences that will come with an increased frequency and willing to accept additional capacity as positive rather than a negative.

    They even make note to IE the importance of closing all crossings along the line.


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