Prostitute murder in Dublin 1920s/30s?

Masked Breton · 06-06-2008 10:42pm #1

Hi

Recently watched the excellent Striapacha documentaries on tg4 and there was mention of a case of a young prostitute murdered by a Garda in the Dublin mountains. I think it was 1920s/1930s. Can someone tell me the name of the girl? It was an unusual name if I remember correctly

Thanks

DenMan · 06-06-2008 10:50pm

It's amazing back then, and that's only 80 years ago or so the mentality of the people. The Gardai were recently formed and still in their infancy. Mentality of late 19th century. I would imaging the thought of prostitutes working during the night horrified people. Poor girl though. Only trying to make some money. Tough times that they were, during the depression.

DenMan · 06-06-2008 10:55pm

Sorry about that. Regarding her name we will have to research that. Here are a couple of links for you regarding the program.

http://www.iftn.ie/?act1=record&aid=73&rid=4281159&sr=1&only=1&hl=bci&tpl=archnews

http://www.rte.ie/radio1/thetubridyshow/1196667.html

Let me know if you find anything out, I will do my best to find out.

Den

Snickers Man · 07-06-2008 3:08am

I haven't seen the program you are talking about but Gene Kerrigan wrote in his book "This Great Little Nation" about the case of a prostitute murdered (almost certainly) by a Garda and his doctor friend who came up to Dublin for a weekend of drinkin' and shaggin' back in the 1920s.

She was known as Honor Bright, although that was her "professional" name. If I can find the book I will find out her real name.

The two boyos were tried for her murder but were both acquitted.

Masked Breton · 07-06-2008 3:22pm

Honor Bright, that's the one. Thanks

It's an interesting period in Irish history, like you said the state and its institutions in their infancy, areas like the Monto out in the open (for a while)... general lawlessness vibe!

kreuzberger · 07-06-2008 7:25pm

that was a period in which state employees had carried out some dreadful atrocities and murders during the repression of the population . To a large extent garda personnel were the same scum whod made up the Victorian ethos of the British police just with a new uniform . In fact in Dublin the DMP uniform hadnt even changed . The medical society hadnt really changed from its privileged ethos either . Basically you had 2 people of privilege doing whatever they felt like to a non-person in a state that had very recently engaged in repression and atrocities as deliberate policy . Unsurprising that would result in a brutal death

Fratton Fred · 08-06-2008 5:04pm

do you not get bored of randomly blaming the British for everything?

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar · 08-06-2008 5:06pm

never!

my internet's been crap all day, you prod bastards are behind it I'm certain!

Kazuma · 08-06-2008 5:09pm

Haha,
+1

Fratton Fred · 08-06-2008 6:12pm

Mordances with the proletariat wrote: »

never!

my internet's been crap all day, you prod bastards are behind it I'm certain!

damn, you caught us out

kreuzberger · 08-06-2008 6:38pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

do you not get bored of randomly blaming the British for everything?

impossible . a man who gets bored doing that has lost the will to live

Fratton Fred · 08-06-2008 6:55pm

kreuzberger wrote: »

impossible . a man who gets bored doing that has lost the will to live

surely you need a life for that to happen

kreuzberger · 08-06-2008 7:06pm

no , just our anti social neighbours from hell

Snickers Man · 10-06-2008 7:25pm

kreuzberger wrote: »

that was a period in which state employees had carried out some dreadful atrocities and murders during the repression of the population . To a large extent garda personnel were the same scum whod made up the Victorian ethos of the British police just with a new uniform . In fact in Dublin the DMP uniform hadnt even changed .

Is that just a chip on your shoulder or an entire Intel factory?

Snickers Man · 18-06-2008 2:33pm

Snickers Man wrote: »

She was known as Honor Bright, although that was her "professional" name. If I can find the book I will find out her real name.

Found the book. Her real name was Elizabeth O'Neill and she was 25 years old when she was murdered. She was also the mother of a young son. She had refused to "give him up for adoption" after he was born.

One of the accused, Leopold Dillon, was a former soldier in both the British and Free State armies. At the time of the killing, he was a garda superintendent.

The other, Patrick Purcell was a doctor from Dunlavin Co Wicklow. He was also a peace commissioner.

Although there seems to be little doubt about the debauched evening of sex and alcohol that the two men enjoyed, there seems to have been very little evidence that they killed the woman. One of them had indeed "availed of her services" but she was taken away from central Dublin in a taxi to where she lived in Harold's Cross. Her body was found in the mountains.

A taxi driver, presumably the one who drove her home, was originally arrested for the crime but was released when the two pillars of society were charged.

According to Kerrigan's book, the jury only took three minutes to decide the men's not-guilty verdict. But then they weren't charged with the crime of being drunken randy whore mongers. They were charged with murder. And there was little or no evidence of that.

JonThom · 25-06-2008 11:16am

Article here on same.

Markao · 04-07-2008 5:12pm

Hello, Sorry for jumping in. I am a little interested in the story. My main reason is that Lizzie O[EMAIL="o@Neill"]'Neill[/EMAIL] (or Honor Bright) was my Grandmother. My sister has been invistigating the incident over many years. The whole story has yet to come out, but we do know the Garda is still holding the investigation and some trial documents despite the Irish Statute of Limitations. We think this is because they may involve an Irish statesman of the day. To be fair this is not fully proven. but the press of the day had a lot to say on the subject. There is a small book which goes in to some detail of the trial procedure and happenings of that fateful evening. It is by Patricia Hughes (my sister) "W. B. Yeats and the Murder of Honor Bright". I hope this helps a little.

PLH · 05-07-2008 12:21pm

Honor Bright was my grandmother. Her real name was Lily O'Neill, though she also called herself Lizzie. She was never Elizabeth - that was just a name assumed to be hers by the reporters who wrote about her murder. I am in the process of discovering more about her life and would welcome contact with any actual witnesses to her life or circumstances. I have written a book about her, available on www.lulu.com, entitled W.B.Yeats and the Murder of Honor Bright. Strange to say, nost people have not read all the evidence available, even though they may think they have. Why not find out for yourself if she really was a prostitute, or just a glorified Irish myth invented by the police at the time? Read my book and start a journey of exploration.

dogmatix · 30-07-2008 11:53pm

There is a plague set into the wall dedicated to the memory of Honour Bright at the city end of the Ticknock road if anyone is still interested. Don't know how long it has been there.

meathstevie · 06-08-2008 7:15pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

do you not get bored of randomly blaming the British for everything?

On a sidenote :
I don't think a lot of people liked the British police in the Victorian era and immedeatly after. Not even most British themselves;). Nothing to do with where they were from or what exactly was on their epaulettes, police in those days wasn't what police is today.

manchild · 01-07-2009 12:04pm

Can anyone tell me where the plaque to the memory of honour bright is located. i believe it is set in a wall somewhere on the Ticknock road. Or perhaps it has been moved with the road works associated with the M50 ?

PLH · 01-07-2009 12:15pm

Honor Bright was my grandmother and I have been researching her past for the last few years. You'll find the plaque is still in position about 500 yards from Lamb Doyle's public house. It's low down on a stone wall, but I can't tell you the name of the road. It was moved when the new road was built. If you send me your email address I'll be glad to send you a photgraph of it.

CDfm · 01-07-2009 5:07pm

Interesting - what became of the two accused.

PLH · 01-07-2009 10:50pm

It's not known.

I have looked for Leopold Dillon's place of birth in Ireland in 1900 but have not found it, nor his death certificate, though I am hampered by not knowing what year he died. Various stories have been offered about his later life, for example, some say he travelled to the USA and committed suicide or was killed on disemberking. Others say he committed suicide in Ireland. If you know more about it, please tell me.

Partick Purcell was ostracised in Blessington after the trial and local shops refused to serve his wife. He found work as a doctor in Kent, England. Later his son of the same name also became a doctor, and he is now retired. He does not reply to letters concerning the Honor Bright case.

More evidence about them is probably availably in the police record of the case, but Dublin Castle Police Archive is still refusing to release any papers about the case (other than those used in court, which were released in 1926) even though it is now 84 years after her death.

I hope this answers your question. Please let me know if there is anything I've missed out.

Markao · 02-07-2009 9:39am

The Plaque is located outside and in the wall of "Capilano, Ticknock Road, Sandyford, Dublin 16". Rumour has it that the plaque installation was commissioned by the previous occupier of the house who had lived there since the murder, I don't know the exact date. It was made by the local stonemason. Prior to the plaque there was a small cross carved in to the wall stone sometime after the event. That stone was replaced by a 'clean' one and again shortly afterwards a further cross was carved. The area is remote and no-one has identified who cut the original crosses. There are flowers left at the plaque periodically and again no one sees the provider. It is possible it is a local journalist/historian who wrote a piece in a Dublin paper a few years ago wishes to keep the memory alive. I thank him if indeed it is him. I hope this helps a little. M

blingBabe · 02-07-2009 7:23pm

I have often passed the plaque. I am in no way religious but I always like to think that if there is a heaven, paradise or whatever, that the poor woman is at peace.

I read a book recently, 'Where no-one Can Hear You Cry', by a woman journalist; her name escapes me, but the murder in question was the first one described. It deals with many murders in the Wicklow area. As a woman I found it disturbing and chilling.

PLH · 02-07-2009 7:43pm

I had the same thought and would like to thank you for thinking of her.

pjproby · 08-07-2009 10:31pm

you can download that book for €6.80 from
http://www.lulu.com/content/paperback-book/w-b-yeats-and-the-murder-of-honor-bright/761602
there is a fascinating theory at the heart of the book which you may or may not choose to believe.
you will certainly learn a lot more about the murder and about Honor Bright herself.
If she did use the name Honor Bright what is the significance of the name?

CDfm · 08-07-2009 10:46pm

blingBabe wrote: »

I read a book recently, 'Where no-one Can Hear You Cry', by a woman journalist; her name escapes me, but the murder in question was the first one described. It deals with many murders in the Wicklow area. As a woman I found it disturbing and chilling.

As a man I find murder chilling too.

manchild · 10-07-2009 11:23am

thanks to all for the information on Honour Bright

Found the plaque read the book now to find the graveyard. I met a woman during my quest from the ticknock area who tells me that she was not buried in the graveyard but outside of it.

Can anyone give me information on this. You know ireland of old she was in sin and all that. The real sinners were on the alter as we now know.

Markao · 10-07-2009 9:02pm

When I visited the graveyard last year it was suggested (speculation) that during the 1970s the body may have been exhumed and moved to a ‘family grave plot’. (I've not been able to trace the Irish side of the family yet.) No evidence has been found to confirm this theory. However, the advised grave position of ‘Honor Bright’ (on the strangers bank at the back of the enclosure) appears to have been taken by “Padraig R. O’Gallcooairn” (Patrick O’Gallagher). The strangers bank has been relandscaped recently and replanted with shrubs immediately alongside the advised grave position. I have considered asking for conformation one way or teh other from the relevant local authorities. Not done so yet. Interestingly there are the graves of the man who found the body (Felix O'Rielly) and Lamb Doyle (landlord of the pub at the time). If you find any thing else let me know (We'd appreciate any information, incase we have not already heard it)
All the best M

Prostitute murder in Dublin 1920s/30s?

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