The Irish famine?

Fratton Fred · 17-12-2014 1:42pm

Jesus. wrote: »

By whom? And what's that got to do with history? It seems you have a problem with the likes of the Shinners and in an attempt to tackle them you're making the mistake of trying to dress up what happened in this Country. I would suggest a more productive way of "defeating" your political enemies would be to not make an additional enemy of the middle ground by attempting to make light of gross injustices which even the dogs in the street can understand and instead acknowledge and accept historical fact thus presenting yourself as an unbiased reasonable individual. I hate to say it Freddie but you're coming across as anything but on this Msg Board.

Interesting that you see an analogy between the two as a slight on Queen Vicky rather than a slur on poor old Bertie.

A blunderer and a shyster of monumental proportions for certain. But I dare say Her Majesty would have far more troublesome queries about her reign than mere economical incompetence.

Over to you Freddie lad

Lol.

In a thread in after hours there was the usual comments about how uniquely witty and wonderful the Irish are, how the whole world lives the Irish etc. A British poster pointed out that actually, the Irish are no different to anyone else.

There followed by accusations of being anti Irish, if you don't like it here then go home etc.

Similarly an Irish poster in this forum questions the popular Irish view in history and is accused of being a unionist.

There seems to be a theme of don't question anything, or you'll get accused of being anti Irish.

Jesus. · 17-12-2014 1:57pm

That would be a fair point Freddie only I didn't accuse you of any such thing! Rather being anti-Republican/Sinn Fein.

Nothing wrong with that brother. I just think you'd get a lot more change out of them if you went down a different route. I fear your current tactics are all wrong and will continue to backfire on you.

Unless of course you're actually a paid up member of the British Tory party in which case your views on British colonialism would likely be skewed to the point of fantasy anyway

Chuckieawrlaw · 17-12-2014 2:13pm

all the oats were taken out of Ireland and shipped off to England. A blatent attempt to kill off the Irish people

Fratton Fred · 17-12-2014 3:03pm

Jesus. wrote: »

That would be a fair point Freddie only I didn't accuse you of any such thing! Rather being anti-Republican/Sinn Fein.

Nothing wrong with that brother. I just think you'd get a lot more change out of them if you went down a different route. I fear your current tactics are all wrong and will continue to backfire on you.

Unless of course you're actually a paid up member of the British Tory party in which case your views on British colonialism would likely be skewed to the point of fantasy anyway

Fair comment, I'm not a Tory, by any stretch of the imagination though!

eire4 · 17-12-2014 6:13pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

What healing process?

You are aware I assume that we have had a peace process and that while it is beyond slow moving at times a peace process nonetheless does at least exist. I for one believe that we must encourage and develop the healing aspect of that peace process so that we can grow and develop a mutual respect that respects all traditions and beliefs. I think its fair to say that is the wish of the majority of Irish people of all persuasions.
Part of this peace process is the healing process which we must develop between the people on the island of Ireland and also between the people on this island and the British.
To hate is easy to forgive not so easy but it is what I firmly believe we must do.

You have made it clear you do not support Ireland having a National Famine Memorial Day. Are you against my idea of say the president of Ireland forgiving Britain (of course on behalf of the people of Ireland) for the Famine during a National Famine Memorial Day speach as a gesture of healing?

Fratton Fred · 17-12-2014 7:02pm

eire4 wrote: »

You are aware I assume that we have had a peace process and that while it is beyond slow moving at times a peace process nonetheless does at least exist. I for one believe that we must encourage and develop the healing aspect of that peace process so that we can grow and develop a mutual respect that respects all traditions and beliefs. I think its fair to say that is the wish of the majority of Irish people of all persuasions.
Part of this peace process is the healing process which we must develop between the people on the island of Ireland and also between the people on this island and the British.
To hate is easy to forgive not so easy but it is what I firmly believe we must do.

You have made it clear you do not support Ireland having a National Famine Memorial Day. Are you against my idea of say the president of Ireland forgiving Britain (of course on behalf of the people of Ireland) for the Famine during a National Famine Memorial Day speach as a gesture of healing?

There is a national famine memorial day.

You are attempting to drag an event that happened over 150 years ago in to a peace process aimed at reconciliation in the north. Why?

Who is the president supposed to be forgiving?

eire4 · 17-12-2014 8:00pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

There is a national famine memorial day.

You are attempting to drag an event that happened over 150 years ago in to a peace process aimed at reconciliation in the north. Why?

Who is the president supposed to be forgiving?

Yes there is a National Famine Memorial Day but as you know I suggested earlier in this thread the making of the date a fixed one and the making of the event a national holiday so that we could in a more formal manner remember and pay our respects to those who suffered what was such a monumental and tramatic catastrophy in our history.
I asked you did you support this idea and as I quote below you said no you are against it.

"Do I think we should have a days holiday to commemorate the famine? No I don't."

So it is established that you are against having a National Famine Memorial day made a holiday. I apologise I should have been more clear in my recent post. Following on from that are you against the National Famine Memorial Day as it currently is?

As for your first question I did point out that it is easy to hate and much harder to forgive. The Famine is arguably the most catastrophic event of Irelands colonial past and as such I believe can play a very compelling part in the healing process given just how monumental and tramatic an event it was and how long lasting its effects have been.

Your last question is answered in my previous post so I am unclear why your asking it. But for clarity:

Are you against my idea of say the president of Ireland forgiving Britain (of course on behalf of the people of Ireland) for the Famine during a National Famine Memorial Day speach as a gesture of healing?

I hope a second read helps clarify that for you also I would be interested to hear your answer to the above question.

Jesus. · 17-12-2014 8:12pm

Eire, digging up sh*t from long ago is the exact opposite to what anyone should be doing in order to foster better relations between Nations. The famine thing was dealt with a good number of years ago rather adeptly by Tony Blair. Let it go FFS. Do you think the Americans should have a day where their President forgives the British for burning down the White House not long before the famine here? It would be preposterous don't you think?

Why do you feel the Irish Nation needs to drag up the bloody famine again? What makes you think the Country hasn't "dealt" with it in all this time? Do you know something the rest of us don't?

(Never mind raking up the famine, I can't imagine what the Government are at at the moment in bringing the British back to the European Courts of Justice over something that happened during the troubles. Bizarre)

eire4 · 17-12-2014 8:35pm

Jesus. wrote: »

Eire, digging up sh*t from long ago is the exact opposite to what anyone should be doing in order to foster better relations between Nations. The famine thing was dealt with a good number of years ago rather adeptly by Tony Blair. Let it go FFS. Do you think the Americans should have a day where their President forgives the British for burning down the White House not long before the famine here? It would be preposterous don't you think?

Why do you feel the Irish Nation needs to drag up the bloody famine again? What makes you think the Country hasn't "dealt" with it in all this time? Do you know something the rest of us don't?

(Never mind raking up the famine, I can't imagine what the Government are at at the moment in bringing the British back to the European Courts of Justice over something that happened during the troubles. Bizarre)

Regardless of opinions on this toipic to compare the burning of a house to a moumental catastrophy like the Famine is comparing apples and oranges to put it mildly.

I don't feel that Ireland needs to drag up anything.
The Famine is way to massive a trauma in our history to dismiss as your words "drag up the bloody famine again" or "dragging up shi" suggest. We are still in the process of dealing with that black period in our history. We have a National Famine memorial day now yes. A day only instituted in 2008. It is only in recent years that we have had real conversations about just how traumatic and devastating the Famine was on the Irish people of the time and of course the effects that the sheer imensity of the famine resulted in for so long afterward.

It is important that we pay our respects to those who suffered and remember them so that we never allow it to happen again.

Finally as I have said I believe that it is so much easier to hate then to forgive. But that it is important for the healing process within Ireland and between Ireland and Britain to do just that and forgive.

Jolly Red Giant · 17-12-2014 8:40pm

British Imperialism was directly responsible for the causes and consequences of the famine.

The Irish Catholic merchant classes and the Irish Catholic tenant farming classes (with the connivance of the Catholic Church hierarchy) exploited the famine conditions to make large profits from the starvation and misery of the rural and urban poor.

Fratton Fred · 17-12-2014 9:01pm

eire4 wrote: »

Yes there is a National Famine Memorial Day but as you know I suggested earlier in this thread the making of the date a fixed one and the making of the event a national holiday so that we could in a more formal manner remember and pay our respects to those who suffered what was such a monumental and tramatic catastrophy in our history.
I asked you did you support this idea and as I quote below you said no you are against it.

"Do I think we should have a days holiday to commemorate the famine? No I don't."

So it is established that you are against having a National Famine Memorial day made a holiday. I apologise I should have been more clear in my recent post. Following on from that are you against the National Famine Memorial Day as it currently is?

As for your first question I did point out that it is easy to hate and much harder to forgive. The Famine is arguably the most catastrophic event of Irelands colonial past and as such I believe can play a very compelling part in the healing process given just how monumental and tramatic an event it was and how long lasting its effects have been.

Your last question is answered in my previous post so I am unclear why your asking it. But for clarity:

Are you against my idea of say the president of Ireland forgiving Britain (of course on behalf of the people of Ireland) for the Famine during a National Famine Memorial Day speach as a gesture of healing?

I hope a second read helps clarify that for you also I would be interested to hear your answer to the above question.

I understood you first time round. But you haven't answered my questions.

In particular, who would you have the president forgive?

Are you somehow forgiving the 60,000,000 people of Britain? None of whom were born in the same century even that this happened? Are you forgiving the government? Who are completely unrelated to the government of the day? Or are you forgiving the monarch, because her great great grandmother only gave £2000?

TeaBagMania · 17-12-2014 10:26pm

The healing and peace process would proceed a little more smoothly if there wasn’t a “north” and Ireland could return to an undivided country free of British rule

Jesus. · 17-12-2014 10:43pm

eire4 wrote: »

We are still in the process of dealing with that black period in our history.

Says who?!! Its the first I've heard of it. Never heard of a national famine day either. I'd bet the vast majority of people don't even know such a date on the calendar exits. Not much of a memorial day when no-one's heard of it.

Your idea that we're only now coming to terms with something that happened 160 years ago exits entirely in your head mate.

Jolly Red Giant wrote: »

The Irish Catholic merchant classes and the Irish Catholic tenant farming classes (with the connivance of the Catholic Church hierarchy) exploited the famine conditions to make large profits from the starvation and misery of the rural and urban poor.

Why do you say Catholic? Why not just merchant classes and landowners/farmers? What about the Protestants? Why single out one denomination?

And the fact that Freddie "liked" such a comment shows that he's beyond rescue. He's got his own biased narrative and he's sticking to it no matter what. The other side of the "Eire" coin, if you will. Two simpletons making up a brand new history to suit the story they've constructed in their heads.

Sorry lads but its time you woke up from your dreams for everyone's sake.

Fratton Fred · 17-12-2014 10:57pm

Jesus. wrote: »

Why do you say Catholic? Why not just merchant classes and landowners/farmers? What about the Protestants? Why single out one denomination?

And the fact that Freddie "liked" such a comment shows that he's beyond rescue. He's got his own biased narrative and he's sticking to it no matter what. The other side of the "Eire" coin, if you will. Two simpletons making up a brand new history to suit the story they've constructed in their heads.

Sorry lads but its time you woke up from your dreams for everyone's sake.

I can't speak for the poster, but in my opinion, it ends the debate. If he wrote simply landowners or merchants, then it would have played in to the belief that all landowners and merchants were British, which they were not. If he had said protestant, then it would have played in to the belief they were all British, because to put it simply, in popular Irish history, Catholic = Irish = good, protestant = British = bad.

Jesus. · 17-12-2014 11:10pm

You're attempting to persuade me that two wrongs equal a right, Freddie. Again, your tactics are all wrong yet you can't see it. Your "liking" of an incomplete and erroneous statement makes you yourself look incomplete and erroneous. You've become the very thing you're railing against. Someone makes up bullsh*t and you counter it with an equal amount of opposing bullsh*t. You'll never win any friends that way Freddie. Folk will see you just like your opposing number. Uncompromising and inherently biased.

If you had of corrected the poster's mistake you'd have shown yourself to be nothing like Eire. Instead you did the opposite and showed you're as bad as he is!

I'm only trying to help you out Freddie FFS

eire4 · 17-12-2014 11:23pm

Jesus. wrote: »

Says who?!! Its the first I've heard of it. Never heard of a national famine day either. I'd bet the vast majority of people don't even know such a date on the calendar exits. Not much of a memorial day when no-one's heard of it.

Your idea that we're only now coming to terms with something that happened 160 years ago exits entirely in your head mate.

Why do you say Catholic? Why not just merchant classes and landowners/farmers? What about the Protestants? Why single out one denomination?

And the fact that Freddie "liked" such a comment shows that he's beyond rescue. He's got his own biased narrative and he's sticking to it no matter what. The other side of the "Eire" coin, if you will. Two simpletons making up a brand new history to suit the story they've constructed in their heads.

Sorry lads but its time you woke up from your dreams for everyone's sake.

I do not profess to know how wide spread knowledge of the National Famine Memorial day is. You as you say were not aware of it. Given how moumental a moment in our history that is why I am suppotive of turning National Famine Memorial Day into a national holiday.

Well clearly it is only in recent years we have given proper recognition to what happened both in official terms and the founding of the National Famine museum in Storkestown being another example. For so long after the famine there was very little recognition of the famine. That finally does seem to have changed in the more recnt past so that is why I say in a general sense we as a nation are only now coming to terms with what happened.

eire4 · 17-12-2014 11:35pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I understood you first time round. But you haven't answered my questions.

In particular, who would you have the president forgive?

Are you somehow forgiving the 60,000,000 people of Britain? None of whom were born in the same century even that this happened? Are you forgiving the government? Who are completely unrelated to the government of the day? Or are you forgiving the monarch, because her great great grandmother only gave £2000?

Once again I will ask you:

You have made it clear you do not support Ireland having a National Famine Memorial Day. Are you against my idea of say the president of Ireland forgiving Britain (of course on behalf of the people of Ireland) for the Famine during a National Famine Memorial Day speach as a gesture of healing?

Glad you understood me first time.

The president if making a speach during the National Famine Memorial day fogiving Britain for the famine is making it on behalf of the Irish nation and adressing it to Britain as a nation. Obviously he is not directing to a specific person.

Again I ask Are you against my idea of say the president of Ireland forgiving Britain (of course on behalf of the people of Ireland) for the Famine during a National Famine Memorial Day speach as a gesture of healing?

eire4 · 17-12-2014 11:40pm

Jesus. wrote: »

You're attempting to persuade me that two wrongs equal a right, Freddie. Again, your tactics are all wrong yet you can't see it. Your "liking" of an incomplete and erroneous statement makes you yourself look incomplete and erroneous. You've become the very thing you're railing against. Someone makes up bullsh*t and you counter it with an equal amount of opposing bullsh*t. You'll never win any friends that way Freddie. Folk will see you just like your opposing number. Uncompromising and inherently biased.

If you had of corrected the poster's mistake you'd have shown yourself to be nothing like Eire. Instead you did the opposite and showed you're as bad as he is!

I'm only trying to help you out Freddie FFS

So being in favour of supporting the healing process is a bad thing. Being in support of respecting all traditions on our island is a bad thing. Remembering a monumantal trauma and paying respects to that trauma is a bad thing in your view. Interesrting. Shame you have to be so insulting along the way also.

Jesus. · 17-12-2014 11:56pm

eire4 wrote: »

the founding of the National Famine museum in Storkestown being another example.

The what?

Fratton Fred · 18-12-2014 12:37am

Jesus. wrote: »

You're attempting to persuade me that two wrongs equal a right, Freddie. Again, your tactics are all wrong yet you can't see it. Your "liking" of an incomplete and erroneous statement makes you yourself look incomplete and erroneous. You've become the very thing you're railing against. Someone makes up bullsh*t and you counter it with an equal amount of opposing bullsh*t. You'll never win any friends that way Freddie. Folk will see you just like your opposing number. Uncompromising and inherently biased.

If you had of corrected the poster's mistake you'd have shown yourself to be nothing like Eire. Instead you did the opposite and showed you're as bad as he is!

I'm only trying to help you out Freddie FFS

Calm down Jesus, calm down..

feargale · 18-12-2014 12:41am

Jesus. wrote: »

(Never mind raking up the famine, I can't imagine what the Government are at at the moment in bringing the British back to the European Courts of Justice over something that happened during the troubles. Bizarre)

A bit off topic, but no, it's not bizarre. Do you object to the prosecution of Nazis 50 years after the event? If you or a relative of yours were a victim you wouldn't call it bizarre. It's interesting how those in power so often give themselves an exemption from accountability when wrong was done " a long time ago" while they merrily hunt down others for murders, kidnappings etc. that were committed just as long ago. Well and good if people have an out under the GFA. Otherwise the law should take its course.

Fratton Fred · 18-12-2014 12:44am

eire4 wrote: »

Once again I will ask you:

You have made it clear you do not support Ireland having a National Famine Memorial Day. Are you against my idea of say the president of Ireland forgiving Britain (of course on behalf of the people of Ireland) for the Famine during a National Famine Memorial Day speach as a gesture of healing?

Glad you understood me first time.

The president if making a speach during the National Famine Memorial day fogiving Britain for the famine is making it on behalf of the Irish nation and adressing it to Britain as a nation. Obviously he is not directing to a specific person.

Again I ask Are you against my idea of say the president of Ireland forgiving Britain (of course on behalf of the people of Ireland) for the Famine during a National Famine Memorial Day speach as a gesture of healing?

So what your effectively saying is that the whole nation of Britain wronged the whole nation of Ireland

That is not true, but your rather silly idea of the president somehow offering forgiveness gives it that impression.

Remember, there is more chance that your ancestors contributed to the suffering of starving people during the famine than there is mine.

As I said pages ago, people first need to understand the truth of the famine and stop ignoring some (probably painful) truths if they really want to honour those that died.

But, I question if that is what you are actually looking for.

You keep talking about hate. Maybe you should look at yourself.

No, I don't think it is a good idea for the president to offer forgiveness to the nation of Britain. It is not needed.

feargale · 18-12-2014 12:49am

TeaBagMania wrote: »

The healing and peace process would proceed a little more smoothly if there wasn’t a “north” and Ireland could return to an undivided country free of British rule

The GFA allows you to use all your powers of persuasion in pursuit of that goal. However it doesn't compel others to go along with you.

Jesus. · 18-12-2014 1:21am

feargale wrote: »

A bit off topic, but no, it's not bizarre. Do you object to the prosecution of Nazis 50 years after the event? If you or a relative of yours were a victim you wouldn't call it bizarre. It's interesting how those in power so often give themselves an exemption from accountability when wrong was done " a long time ago" while they merrily hunt down others for murders, kidnappings etc. that were committed just as long ago. Well and good if people have an out under the GFA. Otherwise the law should take its course.

I disagree. I think a line should be drawn in the sand regarding the troubles. Whether it be IRA, loyalists or the State(s), raking over old coals is going to do nobody any good. It only opens up old wounds and keeps NI stuck in a depressing time warp.

Its very hard on the relatives of victims and victims themselves but for the sake of the greater good I believe they'll just have to bear the brunt of the suffering.

Its the lesser of two evils IMO.

Jolly Red Giant · 18-12-2014 1:57am

Jesus. wrote: »

Why do you say Catholic? Why not just merchant classes and landowners/farmers? What about the Protestants? Why single out one denomination?

Fred did a decent job of answering it - the narrative about the famine is that it was cause by the British and the Protestant Ascendancy and that they were serving their interests for its duration - that is absolutely not the case - indeed there is copious amounts of evidence to demonstrate that once the famine started certain sections of the 'Irish' society, namely the Catholic (and Protestant - although they were overwhelmingly Catholic) merchants and the Catholic (and Protestant) tenant farmers engaged in widespread manipulation of food supplies and prices to make a financial killing off the misery and death of the rural and urban poor.

Jesus. · 18-12-2014 2:06am

Fair enough Jolly Red Giant but you appear to be lurching from one extreme to the other. You're now making no mention of the landlords (who were mainly of the Gentry) who's minuscule plots and high rents helped bring about the disaster in the first place.

You're talking about what people did during the famine and you're right to do so. But you seem to be excusing a large part of the reason for the tragedy which does come across as pretty revisionist to be honest.

eire4 · 18-12-2014 6:49am

Fratton Fred wrote: »

So what your effectively saying is that the whole nation of Britain wronged the whole nation of Ireland

That is not true, but your rather silly idea of the president somehow offering forgiveness gives it that impression.

Remember, there is more chance that your ancestors contributed to the suffering of starving people during the famine than there is mine.

As I said pages ago, people first need to understand the truth of the famine and stop ignoring some (probably painful) truths if they really want to honour those that died.

But, I question if that is what you are actually looking for.

You keep talking about hate. Maybe you should look at yourself.

No, I don't think it is a good idea for the president to offer forgiveness to the nation of Britain. It is not needed.

No I said nothing of the sort and you know well that I have not said that nor do I intend that meaning. Clearly when a head of state speaks they are speaking on behalf of that nation. Just as Tony Blair Britains then PM was speaking on behalf of the British people when he made his apology about the famine. Given the interpretation you claim to have understood you must have been shocked thinking Tony Blair was implying that the whole nation of Britain wronged the whole nation of Ireland. Which obviously he never said nor meant and neither did I.

Yes I do keep mentioning hate in this thread some of your posts brought it to mind sadly. As I have said a number of times it is easy to hate and harder to forgive. I believe strongly in the peace process and building an Ireland that respects diversity and indeed embraces it. Part of that healing process is forgivenss. I am very comfortable and strongly believe forgiveness is important in the healing process.

As I have said before I have not the slighest clue what my ancestors were doing during those terrible years. If they contributed to the suffering in some way that would be a terrible thing. All the more reason to remember that awful trauma so that we make sure that it never happens again.

eire4 · 18-12-2014 7:02am

Jesus. wrote: »

I disagree. I think a line should be drawn in the sand regarding the troubles. Whether it be IRA, loyalists or the State(s), raking over old coals is going to do nobody any good. It only opens up old wounds and keeps NI stuck in a depressing time warp.

Its very hard on the relatives of victims and victims themselves but for the sake of the greater good I believe they'll just have to bear the brunt of the suffering.

Its the lesser of two evils IMO.

I hear where your coming from and can see the attraction of that approach but disagree. I believe history has a tendancy to repeat itself if we do not learn from it. Old wounds fester unless healed. Then it is not just the relatives of victims who suffer it is new relatives of new victims who suffer as well. Just as it is not good for an individual to bottle and keep in traumatic events they suffered I think it is not good to do so either on a societal level.

braddun · 18-12-2014 7:31am

look up irish slaves

Jolly Red Giant · 18-12-2014 11:12am

Jesus. wrote: »

Fair enough Jolly Red Giant but you appear to be lurching from one extreme to the other. You're now making no mention of the landlords (who were mainly of the Gentry) who's minuscule plots and high rents helped bring about the disaster in the first place.

You're talking about what people did during the famine and you're right to do so. But you seem to be excusing a large part of the reason for the tragedy which does come across as pretty revisionist to be honest.

I have posted twice on this thread - this was the first post -

Jolly Red Giant wrote: »

British Imperialism was directly responsible for the causes and consequences of the famine.

The Irish Catholic merchant classes and the Irish Catholic tenant farming classes (with the connivance of the Catholic Church hierarchy) exploited the famine conditions to make large profits from the starvation and misery of the rural and urban poor.

I outlined who I would argue was responsible for the famine - and who, in my opinion (based on evidence), exploited the crisis for their own financial benefit - now please explain your 'pretty revisionist' comment.

The Irish famine?

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