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End of #metoo

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Comments

  • #62
    SharpshooterTom
    Registered Users Posts: 3,017 ✭✭✭SharpshooterTom


    Stoolcup wrote: »
    Yes, but we shouldn't believe one or the other. Asking questions like "what has she got to loose" is silly. People make stuff up all the time, often for inexplicable reasons. Let the Courts do their job. We are not all legal experts.

    Most of the legal experts have said she almost would be guaranteed to lose if this were in court.

    Megyn Kelly (a former attorney herself), who was arguably sympathetic to the MeToo movement given to what happened to her at Fox, made this point.

    https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2018/09/27/megyn_kelly_ford_would_likely_lose_in_court_democrats_should_be_happy_this_isnt_a_trial.html


  • #63
    batgoat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,423 ✭✭✭batgoat


    Malayalam wrote: »
    So far 1 million bucks in a go fund me account.

    I said clearly that I have not decided who I believe. Anyone can lie under oath.

    And she's had to move address twice, now requires a private security detail and likely will not be able to return to her career any time soon. It took Lewinsky about fifteen years to get a semblance of a life back. So the negative impact vastly outweighs a kickstarter, it'll probably cover survival expenses at the moment...


  • #64
    Franz Von Peppercorn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,070 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn


    dark crystal wrote: »
    Ah, I see. She's decided to turn her previously quiet, happy, successful life upside down just as a 'f*ck you' to the Democrats. Hmmm. She strikes me as the vengeful sort alright.



    I wonder did the Republicans feel the same way when they attempted to impeach Bill Clinton over a consensual sexual encounter with his intern? He was just the president, though, not a judge. Did Linsey Graham feel apoplectic over that too?

    Partisan, as I said above.


  • #65
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,459 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    suicide_circus wrote: »
    the suggestion is that this is purely political ie Ms Ford does not benefit personally but it's a win for the democratic party.

    So she's essentially ruining her life and benefits in no way from it if people think she is lieing,

    That makes no sense


  • #66
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    listen I'm not saying it's political just that that is the insinuation. it's unlikely that someone would put themselves through that but stranger things have happened. that's why these things are best kept in a court room.


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  • #67
    dark crystal
    Registered Users Posts: 10,962 ✭✭✭✭dark crystal


    Malayalam wrote: »
    So far 1 million bucks in a go fund me account.

    I said clearly that I have not decided who I believe. Anyone can lie under oath.


    Did she start that fund? Has she taken any money from it?


    Anyone can start a gofundme account for anyone for any reason.


  • #68
    Dick Swiveller
    Closed Accounts Posts: 197 ✭✭Dick Swiveller


    Cabaal wrote: »
    So she's essentially ruining her life and benefits in no way from it if people think she is lieing,

    That makes no sense

    How is she ruining her life?


  • #69
    batgoat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,423 ✭✭✭batgoat


    dark crystal wrote: »
    Did she start that fund? Has she taken any money from it?


    Anyone can start a gofundme account for anyone for any reason.

    She referenced it when asked about how she would pay various costs but wasn't set up by her from what I gather. She wasn't even clear on how to get the money at this point in time.


  • #70
    leggo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,061 ✭✭✭leggo


    givyjoe wrote: »
    This oj nonsense again. They real difference there is.. there was OVERWHELMING evidence of his guilt.

    This is literally he said, she said.

    Is this the first ever sexual assault story you've followed? How do you conclusively prove someone took their dick out without having a camera ready at the exact moment it happened? This is why it's so difficult to convict people, why so few people come forward to report incidents and why there's perhaps an over-correcting trend towards believing accusers, hence stuff like #IBelieveHer trending.

    It's mental like, a bit of perspective is needed. A lot of lads feel hard done by because of trial by social media, and that's fair enough I feel similarly, but they fail to realise that the system is already massively skewed towards rapists and people who commit these crimes yet have no interest in using their time to come up with solutions to that. How do you look at this situation and think, "Nope, let's keep the rapist-friendly status quo in place and do nothing"? It's so weird and creepy tbh. That could be your sister/wife/girlfriend/female friend one day who's begging to be believed, if god forbid this happens to them, are you going to give them a spiel about 'he said, she said'?!


  • #71
    Malayalam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,189 ✭✭✭Malayalam


    batgoat wrote: »
    And she's had to move address twice, now requires a private security detail and likely will not be able to return to her career any time soon. It took Lewinsky about fifteen years to get a semblance of a life back. So the negative impact vastly outweighs a kickstarter.

    You know that the four people who she put forward to corroborate her accusations including her close friend refused to back her up? It's also a recovered memory, so far she can't say how she got to and from the house or whose house it was. If she was in court the burden of proof would weigh heavily on her. People lie all the time - either she is or he is. None of us can definitively say which. It's all opinion.


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  • #72
    SharpshooterTom
    Registered Users Posts: 3,017 ✭✭✭SharpshooterTom


    dark crystal wrote: »
    I wonder did the Republicans feel the same way when they attempted to impeach Bill Clinton over a consensual sexual encounter with his intern? He was just the president, though, not a judge. Did Linsey Graham feel apoplectic over that too?

    Lindsey Graham, Chuck Grassley, Orrin Hatch, all voted to impeach Bill Clinton back in 1999.

    Brett Kavanaugh was under the wing of Ken Starr at the time and said he would do his best to prove the unethical behaviour of Bill Clinton. Brett Kavanaugh afaik went to great lengths to investigate the angles and trajectory of Bill Clinton's semen shoot on Monica Lewinsky's dress which sounds a bit creepy.


  • #73
    meeeeh
    Registered Users Posts: 11,624 ✭✭✭✭meeeeh


    suicide_circus wrote: »
    yes but sexual assault cases usually get thrashed out in a court with a judge and jury

    Actually no they don't. Most probably aren't even reported, and some don't make it to the court (some for very good reason) but don't pretend sexual assault is like a break in and theft.


  • #74
    Dick Swiveller
    Closed Accounts Posts: 197 ✭✭Dick Swiveller


    leggo wrote: »
    Is this the first ever sexual assault story you've followed? How do you conclusively prove someone took their dick out without having a camera ready at the exact moment it happened? This is why it's so difficult to convict people, why so few people come forward to report incidents and why there's perhaps an over-correcting trend towards believing accusers, hence stuff like #IBelieveHer trending.

    It's mental like, a bit of perspective is needed. A lot of lads feel hard done by because of trial by social media, and that's fair enough I feel similarly, but they fail to realise that the system is already massively skewed towards rapists and people who commit these crimes yet have no interest in using their time to come up with solutions to that. How do you look at this situation and think, "Nope, let's keep the rapist-friendly status quo in place and do nothing"? It's so weird and creepy tbh. That could be your sister/wife/girlfriend/female friend one day who's begging to be believed, if god forbid this happens to them, are you going to give them a spiel about 'he said, she said'?!

    Nonsense. #ibelieveher is trending because lots of people - mainly stupid people - like to belong to a movement, a herd, to be part of something. It's sinister and stupid and anyone taking part in it is a moron.

    Next, your suggestion that courts are rape-friendly is ludicrous. The threshold for convicting someone of rape is high- because it has to be. Rape, unlike many crimes often involves many grey areas and other factors unrelated to the alleged physical assault. It is not as simple as you are making out.

    The presumption of innocence is the greatest liberty we possess, yet you and the mob are willing to overturn hundreds and hundreds of years of beautifully crafted and effective jurisprudence. What is your alternative by the way? What would you do to ensure more convictions - which is what you seem to want.


  • #75
    Malayalam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,189 ✭✭✭Malayalam


    meeeeh wrote: »
    Actually no they don't. Most probably aren't even reported, and some don't make it to the court (some for very good reason) but don't pretend sexual assault is like a break in and theft.

    That is because the burden of proof is so difficult in sexual assault cases. Which is exactly why these cases should not be ventilated between public mobs. The potential for damage to both parties is enormous.


  • #76
    khaldrogo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,572 ✭✭✭khaldrogo


    batgoat wrote:
    Two men pinned her to a bed, covered her mouth and tried to remove her clothing... I would say it's reasonable to assume that's attempted rape...


    She says.....


  • #77
    leggo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,061 ✭✭✭leggo


    Stoolcup wrote: »
    Nonsense. #ibelieveher is trending because lots of people - mainly stupid people - like to belong to a movement, a herd, to be part of something. It's sinister and stupid and anyone taking part in it is a moron.

    Next, your suggestion that courts are rape-friendly is ludicrous. The threshold for convicting someone of rape is high- because it has to be. Rape, unlike many crimes often involves many grey areas and other factors unrelated to the alleged physical assault. It is not as simple as you are making out.

    The presumption of innocence is the greatest liberty we possess, yet you and the mob are willing to overturn hundreds and hundreds of years of beautifully crafted and effective jurisprudence. What is your alternative by the way? What would you do to ensure more convictions - which is what you seem to want.

    Me and the mob? Read the post you quoted before saying that, I said I feel similarly about trial by social media. Do you want another go at that?


  • #78
    Dick Swiveller
    Closed Accounts Posts: 197 ✭✭Dick Swiveller


    leggo wrote: »
    Me and the mob? Read the post you quoted before saying that, I said I feel similarly about trial by social media. Do you want another go at that?

    You said
    "they fail to realise that the system is already massively skewed towards rapists and people who commit these crimes yet have no interest in using their time to come up with solutions to that. How do you look at this situation and think, "Nope, let's keep the rapist-friendly status quo in place and do nothing"? It's so weird and creepy tbh. That could be your sister/wife/girlfriend/female friend one day who's begging to be believed, if god forbid this happens to them, are you going to give them a spiel about 'he said, she said'?!"

    This is exactly what the #ibelieveher mob want. I'm sorry for saying you are part of that mob, but what your saying is very dangerous. What changes do you want to make?


  • #79
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,459 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    Stoolcup wrote: »
    How is she ruining her life?

    You think the comments in the media, internet have no effect on her?

    If you think that you might want to tell that to the women who had the case up in Northern Ireland against the rugby players.


  • #80
    Ulysses Gaze
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,570 ✭✭✭Ulysses Gaze


    ThomasFlynn wrote: »
    The era of white (and particularly white male) dominance is finally coming to and end, and that's essentially what the 21st century democrats and liberals across Western Europe are building for a lot of this century.

    To many Americans, and certainly to the likes of CNN etc, Brett Kavanaugh represents arrogant white male entitlement, and all over twitter amongst liberal activists I always read "I'm fed up of white people" "I'm ashamed to be white" "No more white men!" amongst the American left, some of it is quite powerful and very passionate.

    Its interesting economics don't play much of a part in modern day progressivism as much anymore and rather social issues are at the forefront, it certainly seems to be that way in American politics anyway.

    I think Democrats will run on #MeToo in 2020 against Trump, and keep on calling him racist sexist misogynist racist sexist misogynist etc etc. I don't think they'll concentrate too much on economics, and certainly not Bernie style economics.

    They do that and Trump will walk the election in 2020.


  • #81
    Dick Swiveller
    Closed Accounts Posts: 197 ✭✭Dick Swiveller


    Cabaal wrote: »
    You think the comments in the media, internet have no effect on her?

    If you think that you might want to tell that to the women who had the case up in Northern Ireland against the rugby players.

    I think suggesting her life is ruined is going a bit far. And it's the same for the accused in these cases. Did you witness the lynch mob going after Jackson on twitter?


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  • #82
    khaldrogo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,572 ✭✭✭khaldrogo


    dark crystal wrote:
    Eh, same goes for Ms. Ford. Her life has also been turned upside down and for what? So she can lie under oath about an alleged sexual assault in her teens? What benefit is she getting from making these accusations?


    Probably a book deal, a number of motivational speaker roles, chat show appearances etc.........


  • #83
    dark crystal
    Registered Users Posts: 10,962 ✭✭✭✭dark crystal


    ThomasFlynn wrote: »
    Lindsey Graham, Chuck Grassley, Orrin Hatch, all voted to impeach Bill Clinton back in 1999.

    Brett Kavanaugh was under the wing of Ken Starr at the time and said he would do his best to prove the unethical behaviour of Bill Clinton. Brett Kavanaugh afaik went to great lengths to investigate the angles and trajectory of Bill Clinton's semen shoot on Monica Lewinsky's dress which sounds a bit creepy.


    Well there you go.


    Clinton lied and said he didn't have sexual relations with 'that woman'. What a shock - men can lie too! Especially when it comes to saving their reputations and careers.


  • #84
    meeeeh
    Registered Users Posts: 11,624 ✭✭✭✭meeeeh


    Stoolcup wrote: »
    The presumption of innocence is the greatest liberty we possess, yet you and the mob are willing to overturn hundreds and hundreds of years of beautifully crafted and effective jurisprudence. What is your alternative by the way? What would you do to ensure more convictions - which is what you seem to want.

    You know what, I'm not part of any movement, I believe in presumption of innocence but I also hope my daughter won't have some of the same experiences as me. I think most of us wish there were no rape cases in front of the court because there was no need for it. The beautifully crafted system you wax lyrical about once believed the wife can't be raped by her husband, the beautifully crafted system still puts supposed victim on the trial too. I think most decent people want perpetrators of heinous crimes behind bars. That's all.


  • #85
    dark crystal
    Registered Users Posts: 10,962 ✭✭✭✭dark crystal


    khaldrogo wrote: »
    Probably a book deal, a number of motivational speaker roles, chat show appearances etc.........


    Like O.J has? Or Bill Clinton?


    We'll see how many of those things she does after this hearing. It'll be interesting to see how and if she cashes in on this situation. Very interesting.


  • #86
    Malayalam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,189 ✭✭✭Malayalam


    Cabaal wrote: »
    You think the comments in the media, internet have no effect on her?

    If you think that you might want to tell that to the women who had the case up in Northern Ireland against the rugby players.

    I read the summary of that case in the Irish Times yesterday because there is some correlation. An odd thing about the record is that the vast majority of the article focuses on the allegations in gruesome detail. And then towards the end the fact that the jury found the accused not guilty.

    A jury of their peers. 9 weeks of evidence. Baying mobs, ibelieveher. Etc etc. And yet not guilty.

    It at the very least says something about the court of public opinion.


  • #87
    SharpshooterTom
    Registered Users Posts: 3,017 ✭✭✭SharpshooterTom


    Ulysses Gaze wrote: »
    They do that and Trump will walk the election in 2020.

    Modern day progressivism isn't interested in fighting economic battles as much as social ones.

    Just look at CNN, massive champions/promoters of the MeToo movement, womens rights, feriociously Anti Trump, cheer-leaded and sided with Serena's Williams rant at the Spanish Umpire.

    But they were very anti Bernie Sanders during the 2016 campaign and covered the occupy wall street movement very negatively also.

    CNN are typical of modern day liberalism, very left on social issues, but pro corporate and will fight any politician (Sanders and to a lesser extent Liz Warren) who attempt to change the current capitalist/corporatist structure from the left.


  • #88
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,381 ✭[Deleted User]


    It's actually pretty amusing to think that due to her lack of memory, the first line of her book would be a fairytale.

    "Once upon a time, in a place far, far away.."


  • #89
    Dick Swiveller
    Closed Accounts Posts: 197 ✭✭Dick Swiveller


    meeeeh wrote: »
    You know what, I'm not part of any movement, I believe in presumption of innocence but I also hope my daughter won't have some of the same experiences as me. I think most of us wish there were no rape cases in front of the court because there was no need for it. The beautifully crafted system you wax lyrical about once believed the wife can't be raped by her husband, the beautifully crafted system still puts supposed victim on the trial too. I think most decent people want perpetrators of heinous crimes behind bars. That's all.

    What I was referring to their was liberties like the presumption of innocence - the freedom upon which all other freedoms are built. I don't necessarily disagree with anything else you have written.


  • #90
    dark crystal
    Registered Users Posts: 10,962 ✭✭✭✭dark crystal


    Stoolcup wrote: »

    This is exactly what the #ibelieveher mob want. I'm sorry for saying you are part of that mob, but what your saying is very dangerous. What changes do you want to make?


    FFS. Look at the statistics when it comes to prosecuting rape cases and tell me the alleged victims get the better deal.



    I can assure you, #ibelieveher is not the go to position outside of Twitter when you look at the outcomes of the majority of these cases.


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  • #91
    meeeeh
    Registered Users Posts: 11,624 ✭✭✭✭meeeeh


    Malayalam wrote: »
    A jury of their peers. 9 weeks of evidence. Baying mobs, ibelieveher. Etc etc. And yet not guilty.

    It at the very least says something about the court of public opinion.
    And yet most of the decent people would also think their attitude to women was repulsive. I never thought there was enough to convict them and yet I would also want to buy a ticket that would pay wages of entitled despicable pricks like them.

    Don't think we are all complete idiots, most of us are able to distinguish between what is enough proof to be found guilty but also don't applaud attitude where young girls are sluts with couple of holes to fill. (And yes I am intentionally crude).


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