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09-11-2019, 01:25   #1
mr_fegelien
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Men and sexual entitlement?

Do you think men are raised to be entitled to womens bodies in our culture? I always hear this as an explanation from feminists as to why people like Elliot Rodger and other incels go on shootings sprees as well as why there as so many sexual assaulters that have come out in the MeToo revelations.

I'd like to think so but I believe it's mostly crap. I know two guys in my former schools who ended up in court for sexual assault and one had a rough upbringing, very macho man, very loud when he spoke and the other was a feminine, introverted guy who grew up in South Dublin. Couldn't be more different yet they got in trouble for sexual things. This would point to biological differences in men rather than purely cultural. What do you think?
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09-11-2019, 01:29   #2
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You'd like to think that men possess a sense of sexual entitlement?

Why would you like to think that?
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09-11-2019, 01:30   #3
Plumbthedepths
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My thoughts are no one has the rights to the body of another person without their consent and agreement.
Or simply put NO means NO. Respect that simple word and life needn't take a nasty turn.
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09-11-2019, 01:38   #4
mr_fegelien
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Originally Posted by Tell me how View Post
You'd like to think that men possess a sense of sexual entitlement?

Why would you like to think that?
No I'm not saying that. But I'm looking for what explanation there is for men who harrass, stalk, grope women. Women don't do the same to men or women at nearly the same frequency so is it how boys are raised and/or biological differences?
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09-11-2019, 01:43   #5
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Originally Posted by mr_fegelien View Post
No I'm not saying that. But I'm looking for what explanation there is for men who harrass, stalk, grope women. Women don't do the same to men or women at nearly the same frequency so is it how boys are raised and/or biological differences?
You might want to edit your OP so.
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09-11-2019, 01:45   #6
 
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I'll put it this way.
There's only on cause of rape - rapists.

...but there's a variety of different reasons why someone ends up becoming a rapist.
Various shades of entitlement is certainly one of them.
Ultimately if someone rapes someone they've put their own desire over the will and wellbeing of another and you could say it takes a certain level of entitlement to do that (unless someone is doing a really good job of lying to themselves).

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This would point to biological differences in men rather than purely cultural.
Why? You've just given an example of how people can take two different paths but end up at the same place. Psychology is a big complex mess.
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09-11-2019, 08:12   #7
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Human beings are only highly socialised animals, some more than others, we are riddled with weaknesses for all types of toxic/flawed behaviours, for instance, I can't ever see the day that groups of women will engage in football violence, but men do all the time...we also have innate mating rituals just like every other species on the planet.

It is a fine balance in society between respect for everyone you come into to contact and a sense of entitlement to someone elses property for example, in the cast of male lust, entitlement to someone elses body.

You would hope that we are improving our behaviour as each generation irons out the different toxic behaviours but I think things can get worse as easy as they can get better.

I was listening to a radio show during the week, where women were describing men putting their hands up their skirts, which is sexual assault in any civilised society, I fear due to an unfortunate cocktail of social circumstances that this can/might actually get worse for women.

Last edited by Silentcorner; 09-11-2019 at 08:20.
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10-11-2019, 21:29   #8
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No I'm not saying that. But I'm looking for what explanation there is for men who harrass, stalk, grope women. Women don't do the same to men or women at nearly the same frequency so is it how boys are raised and/or biological differences?
Because they are not gentlemen/have no moral restraint or compass.

Some are just mentally unwell.

Throw in copious amounts of alcohol on top of general loutish behavior of a weekend and this is what you get.
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10-11-2019, 21:45   #9
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Like yeah, I see it as pretty indisputable to me that there is an issue. You look at any kind of societal breakdown, any war zone etc, and what’s one of the first things that happens? Men start attacking and raping women. Even in my own life, I remember being specifically advised in teenage discos by lads I knew (who were just mimicking what other lads do) that the way you get girls was to pretty much force yourself on them or put them in positions they couldn’t say no. I didn’t feel comfortable doing that btw and, as a result, could barely get a shift on a night out until my 20’s. When #MeToo started, I began at the default boards position of #NotAllMen and all that, but then speaking to women in my life saw that pretty much all of them had dozens of stories of dealing with this kinda stuff all their lives. I worked in a job for a while that attracted creeps and every day had to march several out of there when they’d start behaving threateningly towards the girls I’d work with. It’s just there, and it’s not a case-by-case basis, it’s way bigger.

That isn’t to say that every man has a rapist inside of him, or even the majority. A friend of mine who’s had a lot of bad experiences has a fairly toxic view of men as a result, but I remember chatting to her and doing some maths and saying those views were formed from experiences with maybe 1% of all men she’d encountered in her lifetime. So, while you can empathise with how she feels that way, it’s unfair (and offensive) to tarnish an entire gender.

Truth is any kind of reasonable data is so scarce we’ve no idea what the scale of the issue is, but anecdotally I think any independent observer without an agenda could see that this is prevalent enough to be a ‘thing’. Lads get super defensive about it (and I immediately wonder “Dude what did you do?!!” when I see it), but it’s just an unpleasant reality. I don’t think we’re in any way close to determining if it’s biological or societal because the aforementioned deniers are slowing everything down, but it is probably worth looking into.

Last edited by leggo; 10-11-2019 at 21:49.
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14-11-2019, 11:06   #10
Sheridan81
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The serial killer Jack Trawick felt his upbringing in a misogynistic Egyptian culture influenced his sense of sexual entitlement.

Serial killer Michael Ross had a difficult time controlling his animalistic primal impulses. A lot of men do.

I think it's biological.

Life is probably meaningless. Everyone is free to do what they want and some people naturally want to do not very nice things. It was ever thus.
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14-11-2019, 11:17   #11
newport2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr_fegelien View Post
Do you think men are raised to be entitled to womens bodies in our culture? I always hear this as an explanation from feminists as to why people like Elliot Rodger and other incels go on shootings sprees as well as why there as so many sexual assaulters that have come out in the MeToo revelations.
I think "entitlement" is the wrong word. That would imply that someone sexually assaulting a woman thinks they are entitled to do it and thus there's nothing wrong with it. There is something wrong with it (obviously), the assaulter knows that and therefore knows that they are not entitled to do it.
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14-11-2019, 11:19   #12
tatranska
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Op what is your obsession with opening threads relating to sexual issues?
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15-11-2019, 11:33   #13
silverharp
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what does entitlement mean? a winter fuel allowance kind a thing?
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19-11-2019, 13:57   #14
Standman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leggo View Post
Like yeah, I see it as pretty indisputable to me that there is an issue.
... I don’t think we’re in any way close to determining if it’s biological or societal because the aforementioned deniers are slowing everything down, but it is probably worth looking into.
Great post & points. I'd love to have a proper discussion about this. Often men immediately get defensive with this topic (which is understandable I think, there is a lot of man-bashing going on nowadays and it's not hard to misinterpret a discussion like this in that context.)
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