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Home heating automation

18485878990150

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 6,455 ✭✭✭deezell


    crighton wrote: »
    General warning....
    .....He said Energia has been operating a questionable promotion where they offer you a deal on Energia-Netatmo fit out when in fact they are clawing back & profiting of your 250 euro gov subsidy without you being aware of your eligibility.

    I've being saying this for ages. If you then try to get a grant for a real zoning or heating improvement, your grant is gone. If you get a free Netatmo installed, thats probably fair value if you dont pay anything, but some utilities are installing junk and claiming wonderous energy efficiency improvements based on theoretical statistical models, not your actual install. There are cases where they stuck in a single rubbish stat in place of of two zoned manual stats, de-zoning the clients home and upping his heat bill.


  • Registered Users Posts: 61 ✭✭Type 901


    deezell wrote: »
    From your October post, you have a 3 zone system, 3 valves, 2 CH stats and a HW stat, all running off one mechanical timer? If so, you only need to wire your two new stats in place of the old ones, bring the power to the HW valve from the ext kit HW NO, via the cylinder stat, (with ext kit live looped to HW Com.) Short the old timer relay in out live wires. Or leave it on permanently.

    That was right but got a new boiler and they put in a simple on/off/boost digital timer but don't think this it was wired the same as before. Previously could leave constant on and boiler seemed to fire when wall stat/HW stat needed heat - as far as I could see. Now when constant on the boiler still fires when all valves closed.

    Have attached photo of the current wall timer wiring. As far as I can see locations are filled as -

    N - fused mains live
    L - fused main and boiler neutral
    1 - boiler live
    2 - empty
    3 - Boiler heat live return and brown wire (? - assume from valve terminal)
    deezell wrote: »
    Its possible this latter step was not done in your system, and the boiler was fired directly from the single timer, with the stats just opening their respective valves, the valve relays unused. This setup would mean the boiler firing even when all 3 valves were closed. Have another look at your system, listing wire colours is of little help if you don't post images,..

    Have looked at the HW Stat/Valve and Zone Valves terminal blocks - mapping looks as below. Grey/Orange don't seem to be used, so looks that relays where not used - can see cut in HW terminal block image. There is two unused 4-core cables running from zone valve terminal box to boiler timer I think which could be used if not wired right.

    HW Stat and Valve terminal block
    Wiring from|1|2|3|4
    Stat|Black|Brown| |Y/G
    Valve|Brown| |Blue |
    Zone valves block||Brown|Blue |Y/G


    Zone Valves terminal block
    Wiring from|1|2|3|4|5
    HW Valve/Stat|Y&G|Blue |Brown | |
    Zone 1 valve| |Blue | |Brown|
    Zone 2 valve| |Blue | | |Brown


    Need to clarify where the wires out of the zone valves terminal block are combining/going as not clear yet


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,455 ✭✭✭deezell


    Type 901 wrote: »
    That was right but got a new boiler and they put in a simple on/off/boost digital timer but don't think this it was wired the same as before. Previously could leave constant on and boiler seemed to fire when wall stat/HW stat needed heat - as far as I could see. Now when constant on the boiler still fires when all valves closed.

    Have attached photo of the current wall timer wiring. As far as I can see locations are filled as -

    N - fused mains live
    L - fused main and boiler neutral
    1 - boiler live
    2 - empty
    3 - Boiler heat live return and brown wire (? - assume from valve terminal)



    Have looked at the HW Stat/Valve and Zone Valves terminal blocks - mapping looks as below. Grey/Orange don't seem to be used, so looks that relays where not used - can see cut in HW terminal block image. There is two 4-core cables running from zone valve terminals to boiler timer I think which could be used if not wired right.

    HW Stat and Valve terminal block
    Wiring from|1|2|3|4
    Stat|Black|Brown| |Y/G
    Valve|Brown| |Blue |
    Zone valves block||Brown|Blue |Y/G


    Zone Valves terminal block
    Wiring from|1|2|3|4|5
    HW Valve/Stat|Y&G|Blue |Brown | |
    Zone 1 valve| |Blue | |Brown|
    Zone 2 valve| |Blue | | |Brown

    Its likely the zone valve relays were never used, or were cut out when the last bit of work was done. Grey/Orange valve relay contact wires are there from the HW valve, I can't see the cut ends of the CH valve cables in the other photo, they could be there cut off also, though it's possible that those valves have no relay. Check if this is so, if the CH valves are different from the HW valve . It's really not acceptable that a new boiler install would not include an S plan wire up, but instead just a bodge on your previous wiring. The valves are there, the relays most likely are there on all of them. If you want an easy life, and a diy rewire, get a Lex box like this, to wire all stats, valves, boiler, pump and other bits to. Worth every penny
    https://www.systemlink.ie/systemlex.html

    systemlex2_1_orig.jpg


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,099 ✭✭✭John mac


    Type 901 wrote: »

    Have attached photo of the current wall timer wiring. As far as I can see locations are filled as -
    535483.jpg

    could be im wrong

    , but is N = Neutral = Blue
    L=Live= Brown . ?


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,683 ✭✭✭masterboy123


    Hello All,

    I have successfully connected to Wiser Heating system and its working 100%

    A special thanks to Deezell and Championc for going beyond the limits to help me out.

    So the issue is with Huawei routers which doesn't have a stable connection with Wiser. The customer service agent from Wiser has highlighted this to me and advised to get a WiFi Extender (from any other brand), therefore I bought TP Link Wi-Fi extender today and it worked within seconds. Happy days :D

    Attached is a screenshot from Wiser app :)
    20201207-222228.jpg


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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,455 ✭✭✭deezell


    John mac wrote: »

    could be im wrong

    , but is N = Neutral = Blue
    L=Live= Brown . ?

    They couldn't even get that right. But assuming the timer terminals are volt free, then the relay outputs are supplied by a llink from the live in, (Brown wire to 1), so at least they relay is switching a live source, as L and N only power the timer clock. I see a cut end of what appears to be a grey cable underneath the muddle of wires.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,455 ✭✭✭deezell


    Hello All,

    I have successfully connected to Wiser Heating system and its working 100%

    A special thanks to Deezell and Championc for going beyond the limits to help me out.

    So the issue is with Huawei routers which doesn't have a stable connection with Wiser. The customer service agent from Wiser has highlighted this to me and advised to get a WiFi Extender (from any other brand), therefore I bought TP Link Wi-Fi extender today and it worked within seconds. Happy days :D

    Attached is a screenshot from Wiser app :)
    20201207-222228.jpg

    Huawei router? Hmm, maybe Trump was right, they're interrupting your heating to spy on your energy use, and thus disrupt the political order. Crafty Bs.


  • Registered Users Posts: 61 ✭✭Type 901


    deezell wrote: »
    Its likely the zone valve relays were never used, or were cut out when the last bit of work was done. Grey/Orange valve relay contact wires are there from the HW valve, I can't see the cut ends of the CH valve cables in the other photo, they could be there cut off also, though it's possible that those valves have no relay. Check if this is so, if the CH valves are different from the HW valve . It's really not acceptable that a new boiler install would not include an S plan wire up, but instead just a bodge on your previous wiring. The valves are there, the relays most likely are there on all of them. If you want an easy life, and a diy rewire, get a Lex box like this, to wire all stats, valves, boiler, pump and other bits to. Worth every penny

    Thanks having a look! So have confirmed all valves have grey/orange wires and they are Danfoss type hpa2 valves.

    In fairness to RGI it was just a straight gas boiler replacement requested. Only in the house this year and how I though the heating was working before the installation was completely wrong based on what found now! Looks that the valve signal wires were never wired in at all previously. But there are two cables (2 core and earth) and one core from another cable unused routed from the valve terminal block by HW tank to the boiler timer from time of house build. You spotted these in the timer picture but have put up clearer image. Likely were meant to be used for the valve signal live?

    Question now is could I just use these to take the grey or orange from the valves down to the boiler timer when installing the extension kit? Of course colours won't be correct but can label to reflect.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,455 ✭✭✭deezell


    Type 901 wrote: »
    Thanks having a look! So....
    ....Question now is could I just use these to take the grey or orange from the valves down to the boiler timer when installing the extension kit? Of course colours won't be correct but can label to reflect.
    You'll need to wire up appropriately as per the s plan image I posted, with an extra CH zone. The ext kit can open the HW valve, and optionally one of the CH valves wirelessly from one Tado stat. Wiring the two Tado stats in place of the old stats would be the easiest option as these are already wired to open the CH valves. ALL firing of the boiler must come only from the valve relays, with permanent live to one of all relay contacts, say, all the Grey, and a combination of the other contacts, all the Orange, to the boiler. This is required to insure there is no crossing of zone calls, with a call from one zone unintentionally opening the valve of another zone.
    Did you day the original wiring was in a NEW house? They saved about €50 by bodging the wiring with a cheap timer instead of a 3 zone timer, and dodgeing the zone relays. Wiring centres are a joke also, big clumps of connector strips. I don't know how an engineer can sign off on a DIY install like that.


  • Registered Users Posts: 61 ✭✭Type 901


    deezell wrote:
    You'll need to wire up appropriately as per the s plan image I posted, with an extra CH zone. … . Wiring the two Tado stats in place of the old stats would be the easiest option as these are already wired to open the CH valves. ALL firing of the boiler must come only from the valve relays, with permanent live to one of all relay contacts, say, all the Grey, and a combination of the other contacts, all the Orange, to the boiler. This is required to insure there is no crossing of zone calls, with a call from one zone unintentionally opening the valve of another zone.

    Yes plan is to replace existing wall stats with wired tado stats. Will start planning out the wiring based on above and s plan provided.
    deezell wrote:
    Did you day the original wiring was in a NEW house? They saved about €50 by bodging the wiring with a cheap timer instead of a 3 zone timer, and dodgeing the zone relays. Wiring centres are a joke also, big clumps of connector strips. I don't know how an engineer can sign off on a DIY install like that.

    Well new to me, house was built in early 2000s so looks like celtic tiger building shortcuts/bodges were made! Going to see about drawing/planning out the wiring to correct but given the current state it might be better to get a sparks with good zone heating knowledge to rectify and put in proper wiring centre.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,455 ✭✭✭deezell


    At least its just wiring, actual plumbing is done.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,031 ✭✭✭championc


    It's not often you'd think you'd say that you can't wait for the next gas bill to come, but I am seriously interested in the impact of my Tado TRV's.

    While Tado reckoned I'd saved only 1.8% in November, that would only be savings made by Tado itself with it's Geofencing or open window detection. What I am more interested in is the savings made by leaving rooms freezing cold when previously they would have been heated as part of downstairs or whole house heating. In addition, rooms are definitely more level in temperature during the evening. And overall, with absolutely nothing to base it on, but I feel that the weather this year at present is colder than last year.

    Sofar ME3000 Battery Storage Inverter for sale in Ballinteer, Sth. Dublin - see Adverts.ie - https://www.adverts.ie/other-electronics/solar-sofar-me3000-battery-storage-inverter/32914042 or PM me



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,179 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    crighton wrote: »
    General warning -

    Just had our 2nd Netatmo break in 18mths, this time is simply stopped working. The unit is apprx 1 year old.

    Previous time it burnt out posing a fire risk [Energia said they sent that unit for tech review but were unable to confirm what caused it].

    A few things to be aware of and to note:
    The independent boiler service guy this time said many of his callouts are currently replacing broken Netatmo units.
    The Energia-Netatmo service people appear either untrained or lack expertise in fitting etc.
    He said Energia has been operating a questionable promotion where they offer you a deal on Energia-Netatmo fit out when in fact they are clawing back & profiting of your 250 euro gov subsidy without you being aware of your eligibility.

    They are not the only ones, the worse ones are Hub controller


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,784 ✭✭✭Alkers


    championc wrote: »
    It's not often you'd think you'd say that you can't wait for the next gas bill to come, but I am seriously interested in the impact of my Tado TRV's.

    While Tado reckoned I'd saved only 1.8% in November, that would only be savings made by Tado itself with it's Geofencing or open window detection. What I am more interested in is the savings made by leaving rooms freezing cold when previously they would have been heated as part of downstairs or whole house heating. In addition, rooms are definitely more level in temperature during the evening. And overall, with absolutely nothing to base it on, but I feel that the weather this year at present is colder than last year.
    Do you unoccupied rooms with no heating? Is there not a min recommended? I have mine at 12c just chose that at random.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,179 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    Alkers wrote: »
    Do you unoccupied rooms with no heating? Is there not a min recommended? I have mine at 12c just chose that at random.

    how insulated are the doors, floors and internal walls?


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,784 ✭✭✭Alkers


    ted1 wrote: »
    how insulated are the doors, floors and internal walls?

    The house itself is terraced, external walls are solid block with 100mm EWI, downstairs is a suspended timber floor but the EWI runs down beneath the floor level, internal walls aren't insulated as far as I'm aware and internal doors are solid timber.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,670 ✭✭✭Bluefoam


    crighton wrote: »
    General warning -

    Just had our 2nd Netatmo break in 18mths, this time is simply stopped working. The unit is apprx 1 year old.

    Previous time it burnt out posing a fire risk [Energia said they sent that unit for tech review but were unable to confirm what caused it].

    A few things to be aware of and to note:
    The independent boiler service guy this time said many of his callouts are currently replacing broken Netatmo units.
    The Energia-Netatmo service people appear either untrained or lack expertise in fitting etc.
    He said Energia has been operating a questionable promotion where they offer you a deal on Energia-Netatmo fit out when in fact they are clawing back & profiting of your 250 euro gov subsidy without you being aware of your eligibility.

    How much are Energia charging? Electric Ireland just insatlled a Nest Thermostat for me for €130... retail price is usually €250 which doesn't include installation, so their offer is quite good & yes they are using the grant system to subsidise the cost. Even better because they gave me a €350 joining bonus & allowed me to pay for the Thermostat out of that. I have two Nests in the house, 2 zones plus hot water and am very happy with it.

    THe fitter mentioned to me that he believes the grants will be stopped. So subsidised Thermostats may not be offered in future by the energy companies.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,455 ✭✭✭deezell


    Bluefoam wrote: »
    How much are Energia charging?....
    ....THe fitter mentioned to me that he believes the grants will be stopped. So subsidised Thermostats may not be offered in future by the energy companies.

    Sadly, he may be right, because of utilities fitting junk stats in a pretence that they're saving energy. No additional zones, away mode, reference to outside temperature, learning, or any if the features that distinguishes smart stats. The nest deal is use of your grant/incentive if you get it cost free, given that I've seen quotes for a grand for a single Nest supply and install.
    Wasn't there a recent criticism of the poor value for money of enegy efficiency measures in the media?
    The grant for heating controls is/was €700 afaik, a lot more than €250, but I think this requires zoning, at least independent CH and HW. I think the other payment is a different EU efficiency measure, self regulated by the utilities.
    Heres the grant tables, from this heavy duty document.
    "Spending Review 2020
    Grant Schemes for Energy Efficiency: Better
    Energy Homes and Better Energy
    Communities"
    https://assets.gov.ie/94936/5a0c630e-0d41-49a8-806f-8901b80daf48.pdf

    535640.jpg


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,179 ✭✭✭✭ted1




  • Registered Users Posts: 6,455 ✭✭✭deezell




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  • Registered Users Posts: 471 ✭✭raytaxi


    grogi wrote: »
    Assuming you have S-Plan connectivity, in the junction box you probably have a jumper from 6 to 8, which would need to be disconnected and two core wire attached that woould terminate at the stat.

    S_plan_wiring_diagram.gif

    would I be right that its this box I need to change wiring in ?IMG_0051.jpg
    rather than behind the wiser


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,455 ✭✭✭deezell


    raytaxi wrote: »
    would I be right that its this box I need to change wiring in ?IMG_0051.jpg
    rather than behind the wiser

    Yes, here is a diagram for the EPH wiring centre.

    535660.jpg

    On this the HW ON comes in on 4 and out to the stat, back on 7 and out to the HW valve. On yours the HW ON will come in and go straight out to the HW valve. It may be linked over two terminals or just use a single terminal. You need to connect the two wires from your insert stat (one like this) to interrupt the HW ON from Wiser to HW valve.
    Firebird-Single-Control-Stat-542562-ACC000OHS-Reverse-View-Photo.jpg


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,455 ✭✭✭deezell


    In fact here's the wiring for the wireless 3 channel controller. Yours may be exactly like this, channel 1 is not specifically labelled for HW, but assuming it is linked to the cylinder stat, they use terminal 6 to route the HW ON to the HW valve.

    535663.jpg


  • Registered Users Posts: 471 ✭✭raytaxi


    My existing system is the last one and zone one is hot water, just need to run cable to Stat on cylinder then between 6 on each board. So that when water is at heat it opens and goes off ? The stat you have pictured can the probe go into a cylinder pocket as mines fully insulated and has 3 pockets for stats.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,455 ✭✭✭deezell


    raytaxi wrote: »
    My existing system is the last one and zone one is hot water, just need to run cable to Stat on cylinder then between 6 on each board. So that when water is at heat it opens and goes off ? The stat you have pictured can the probe go into a cylinder pocket as mines fully insulated and has 3 pockets for stats.

    Not quite, HW ON voltage (from 3 on the Ember) comes in on terminal 6 and goes out on 6 to the valve. You must disconnect the valve from 6, and connect one wire of the the stat in its place, and the other stat wire to a spare terminal, say 10, then move the valve Brown to 10.

    Yes, to the insert stat will fit in your cylinder, half to 2/3 way down.


  • Registered Users Posts: 322 ✭✭Redlim


    Apologies in advance for the long spiel, just trying to give as much background as possible for my question. Recently installed the new version of the Tado wireless starter kit. Also added their smart TRVs to all but 2 of the 14 rads which seems to be working perfect so far.

    I don't have hot water control yet as I didn't have the wiring for it in my previous set up either - will try to get this sorted before the spring/summer when the rads will be switched off. It's not an issue at the moment as I'm happy for the HW cylinder to receive heat whenever the upstairs rads call for heat.

    My previous set up was essentially 2 zones with 3 motorised valves and a very basic "apt" branded rotary timer. The zones are a) downstairs rads controlled by a wall stat and b) upstairs rads plus HW cylinder combined. For upstairs there's 2 motorised valves, 1 for the rads manifold and the other for the HW cylinder but both are wired together to the wall stat on the landing - hence the lack of HW control currently. Neither of the old wall stats had/have the ability to call for heat, they were set up to simply open and close.

    What I'm trying to figure out is if there's any benefit at all in trying to keep these old zones now that I have the Tado TRVs on most of my rads. I don't have any wired Tado stats, just the wireless temperature sensor that came with the new starter kit so I'm thinking I should just remove the valves and the old wall stats. Does this make sense or am I missing something obvious?


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,455 ✭✭✭deezell


    You can latch the valves open to convert everywhere to a single zone. It this case the old stats can be left full on or removed.
    What's currently firing the boiler, the ext kit? I'd use its CH on as live to fire the boiler on behalf of the TRVs, but also use its HW contacts to open and close the HW valve. You'd then need to wire the HW valve relay (currently unused) to fire the boiler to get HW only operation when all the rads (bar two) are closed. If you don't want these two to heat during a HW only timed event, connect the CH on from the ext kit to both CH valves, then no radiators will heat during a HW only call, and only the active TRV rads plus the open two rads will heat during any CH event. If you continue to use the two CH valves, turn old stats up full or short their wires to maintain a connection of CH ON live from the ext kit, which formerly was supplied by the output of the old single timer.


  • Registered Users Posts: 322 ✭✭Redlim


    deezell wrote: »
    You can latch the valves open to convert everywhere to a single zone. It this case the old stats can be left full on or removed.
    What's currently firing the boiler, the ext kit? I'd use its CH on as live to fire the boiler on behalf of the TRVs, but also use its HW contacts to open and close the HW valve. You'd then need to wire the HW valve relay (currently unused) to fire the boiler to get HW only operation when all the rads (bar two) are closed. If you don't want these two to heat during a HW only timed event, connect the CH on from the ext kit to both CH valves, then no radiators will heat during a HW only call, and only the active TRV rads plus the open two rads will heat during any CH event. If you continue to use the two CH valves, turn old stats up full or short their wires to maintain a connection of CH ON live from the ext kit, which formerly was supplied by the output of the old single timer.

    Thanks deezell, that's really helpful. To answer your question, the wireless receiver from the starter kit is firing the boiler now whenever a TRV or the wireless temperature sensor calls for heat.

    I've attached a picture of the wiring:
    N = 3 * neutral
    L = 1 live plus purple bridging wire to CH COM
    CH No = 2 * live out
    Plus earth wire attached to plate in behind the receiver
    No remaining wires left unattached

    If I understand it correctly I need to add a stat to the HW cylinder, link it to the motorised valve and bring down a wire to this wireless receiver?

    In relation to fully isolating the CH from HW - I could be wrong but I don't think I have the required wiring from the stats to do this and it may be more trouble than it's worth to fix it. During the summer I can switch off the 2 remaining manual rads. Or is there a better alternative?


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,455 ✭✭✭deezell


    Check out the previous discussion with RayTaxi, his situation is identical, 3 zone valves, but a single old timer firing the boiler, the zone valves controlled by stats but the valves themselves not connected to fire the boiler when called, in a proper S plan setup. If you keep the valves, and seperate the operation of the HW valve from the CH valves, you can have independent HW only in the summer. HW valve can be operated by a cylinder stat, in combination with the currently unused HW timer terminal of the ext kit. The CH terminal of the kit can be used to open both the CH valves, but to achieve independent firing of the boiler, the valve relays will have to be wired in S plan to fire it, no direct connection from the ext kit. This way when no TRVs are calling for heat, all rads will be closed, and a call for HW will only open the HW valve.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 322 ✭✭Redlim


    deezell wrote: »
    Check out the previous discussion with RayTaxi, his situation is identical, 3 zone valves, but a single old timer firing the boiler, the zone valves controlled by stats but the valves themselves not connected to fire the boiler when called, in a proper S plan setup. If you keep the valves, and seperate the operation of the HW valve from the CH valves, you can have independent HW only in the summer. HW valve can be operated by a cylinder stat, in combination with the currently unused HW timer terminal of the ext kit. The CH terminal of the kit can be used to open both the CH valves, but to achieve independent firing of the boiler, the valve relays will have to be wired in S plan to fire it, no direct connection from the ext kit. This way when no TRVs are calling for heat, all rads will be closed, and a call for HW will only open the HW valve.

    Great stuff, thanks again for all your help deezell. The amount of advice you give to people on here is unbelievable. I promise I'll leave you in peace now!


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