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28-11-2003, 21:28   #31
lodgepole
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+ diff between online and offline

Quality and hence speed and space. And the main factor, which relies on both speed and space, and that's money. Offline editing is cheaper because the quality is lower, so you can get creative with time to spare. Online is more expensive but is top quality. You do an offline edit, create an Edit Decision List and send that and all your (labeled and time coded) tapes to the online editor who does the whole job sans creativity in a short amount of time. That was a shockingly bad explanation, but you should get the idea.
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29-11-2003, 15:03   #32
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Quote:
Originally posted by bambam
interesting article, could any of you A/V heads care to explain some ot the terms for the layman ?

+ diff between online and offline
+ effects like tracking ??
+ trimming
+ what kind of res does Super-16 give

BTW, these guys work with awesome hardware. Best I've dealt with is round robin into twin Sun Starfires
Offline uses low resolution (i.e. heavily compressed) pictures which have low storage overhead and therefore you can fit hours of footage onto a drive. Offline is where creativity, experimentation, long hours, frustration and success/failure happens. Offline pictures shouldn't be broadcast because they'll look cr@p. Offline (Avid) machines are cheaper than online machines.

Online uses full resolution tv pictures and has a heavy requirement for storage. Online droids generally receive either a sequence or edl to plug into their machine, press the "GO" button and feed in the tapes. It is not generally considered to be creative (a horribly misunderstood and misused word), and the job is more suited to left-brain types. Online machines are expensive.

I guess I've been a little disparaging about online, but in the bad old days of linear editing, that's where I cut my teeth. Online is also where a whole bunch of keying, effects and titling is done, and these skills in themselves can be finely honed, which is what separates good online editors from bad. Good online editors also suggest remedies for foobars that bad offline editors hav emade.

Tracking is a technique used by effects bitches to invisibly replace one item in a scene with another, or introduce a new item to appear as if it was always in the scene. Tracking involves selecting an item already in a scene, getting the tracking software to find that set of pixels in every frame, and create a mathematical table which describes where that item is. Using this table, you can "glue" on new things that were never there, or fix things that shouldn' be there.

Trimming is simply adjusting an edit. If a cut happens visually too soon, then make it later. Trimming is the fine tuning of an edit.

Super 16 gives amazing resolution for TV work. Pretty good for low-budget feature work too. With the improvement in film stocks, it is getting more difficult to differentiate between 16 and 35.

hth

hC

Last edited by Hugh_C; 29-11-2003 at 15:11.
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06-12-2003, 14:08   #33
 
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Re: Jeff

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Originally posted by mycroft
Film composer is fine if you have about oooohhhh €70 Grand. And comparing film composer to express doesn't help. One is a jumbo jet the other is a golf gti. And you don't go down to the shops in a jumbo jet, it's not pratical. The best editing software is the one that suits your needs. You want simple cheap, go with Premier, more advance FCP or express, effects go with discreet, and serious editing check out media composer or if it's a film composer.

I think annoucing which is the best is silly, it depends on what you use and always remember "knowing how to use avid/FCP/premier does not make you an editor, knowing how to edit makes you an editor, and you should be flexible and learn to adapt to different platforms.

http://www.editorsguild.com/newslett...rubs_fcp4.html
Point taken I suppose. Does Avid Film Composer really cost that much??

Personally if I was investing in an editing system (which I hopefully will be doing in a year or so) I would go for a Final Cut Pro on a Mac G4 (or 5). Premier in my experience is grand but in the end will drag you down if you're trying to edit anything major on it. So if you are investing in a whole new set up then FCP is the way to go.

I agree that learning different platforms is a good way to go and obviously knowing how to use certain packages does not an editor make. I know people who can use FCP, Film Composer and have even edited on an old flat bed Steinbeck but still aren't editors because they lack the basic timing and intuition.
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08-12-2003, 08:35   #34
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Point taken I suppose. Does Avid Film Composer really cost that much??
What most people don't factor in on the cost is the peripherals, For the cost of Film composer you get, film composer. You're also going to need, media storage (avid drives), a deck (beta sp, dat machine, etc) Not to mention the cost of upkeep and repair, it's why most productions rent, in the short term it's cheaper, and if something breaks down you're not responsible and the facilties house is you rented it from has to fix it.

Has anyone had any joy working with FCP outside of it's firewire input? Most people I know have had serious issues trying to digtize using a breakout box, they keep losing video signal. If you're using or planning on getting FCP and thinking about digitizing of anything other than dv thru firewire, I understand you need to invest in about €2500 worth of kit to make it work
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08-12-2003, 09:05   #35
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WOWOWOW..... Final cut pro is the buzz word atm. I've used it on a new G5 (the fastest computer on earth apparently, and it stinks of monkey píss in my opinion. I've also used Avid 8000, Avid Media composer, Sony Es3, Sony Es7, Discreet Logic Edit*, and I have bought my own Pinnacle Pro Edition 5 which I love.


To say Avid is user friendly is a bit of a lie really. I like avid and I agree its the industry standard. But all of the other mentioned have everything to hand..... I've worked changing between "Consumer" suites and pro edit suites (Avid) and I find the change difficult. I think if you were a constant avid user it would be fine, but takes you a few minutes to get your head around it wehn you sit down.

I dislike FCP because everyone is talking about it since the new version came out.... FCP has been around for a while. It seems its got a media boost. I've worked with it and cant see any difference to my Pro Edition 5, takes a while to render as was already said.


Pro Edition 5, does most things realtime, black and white, colour correction, 2d editor and 3d editor. This means it will preview realtime meaning you only have to render on your export. Good for me cause I work with a director that likes his B+W etc etc.


That is all.... will add more later, but I need to go to the Hospital


John
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08-12-2003, 09:07   #36
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Oh an avid film composer isn't anything compared to Avid Symphony...... Costs in the region of £100,000


It's the daddy.

John
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11-12-2003, 16:04   #37
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Just to clarify about Film Composer (actually i may be wrong about this but im pretty sure this is the way it is). Film Composer is only really a set of film options which can be added on to any avid to turn it into a film composer. So you can have a Media Composer with Film options or Symphony with Film options etc.


In this day and age, You dont really need film options unless your doing a full blown feature. Its entirely possible (and practical) to offline at 25fps and get the labs to use the 25fps list to work out how to cut your negative. Then you only need to harmonise the sound track so that it runs at the equivalent speed of the projected film*










(er, i think. Hugh correct any glaring errors )

Last edited by Dustaz; 11-12-2003 at 16:08.
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13-12-2003, 15:33   #38
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Oh an avid film composer isn't anything compared to Avid Symphony...... Costs in the region of £100,000
Again that all depends on what you're trying to do. If you're finishing on film theres little point in Symphony cause all it's fancy grading tools don't matter a damn cause the lab will handle that infinitely better. It's all about the right tool for the job. Also one of the largest post houses in this country has final cut pro linked to it's symphony and their onliners will often switch to working on it for certain tasks, they feel FCP is better at certain stuff than symphony


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In this day and age, You dont really need film options unless your doing a full blown feature. Its entirely possible (and practical) to offline at 25fps and get the labs to use the 25fps list to work out how to cut your negative.
The process is called matchback, and I don't know of a single professional quailty film editor who would use it, it gives them the screaming heepy jeebys to think that some lab tech in england is guessing which frame is the correct one. Only ultra cheap features go for this option, it's a complete headf**K and speaking from experience having exhausted and precious director and editor franticaly nervous about the cut matching at such a late and vital stage is about as much fun as having your fingernails puckled out and then eating a bag of salt n vingear crisps.

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Then you only need to harmonise the sound track so that it runs at the equivalent speed of the projected film
Speaking as a poor bastard who once had to do this. It's not an easy task and you're never given enough time to do.

Even in this day and age when you finally do your neg cut (finally cut the film to match the picture, years ago it was an irreverisble process) and now you can re edit your neg, you just don't want the precious neg handled too much.
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13-12-2003, 16:13   #39
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by mycroft
The process is called matchback, and I don't know of a single professional quailty film editor who would use it, it gives them the screaming heepy jeebys to think that some lab tech in england is guessing which frame is the correct one. Only ultra cheap features go for this option, it's a complete headf**K and speaking from experience having exhausted and precious director and editor franticaly nervous about the cut matching at such a late and vital stage is about as much fun as having your fingernails puckled out and then eating a bag of salt n vingear crisps.[quote]

I dont think any features would go down this road. Ive done it once or twice for shorts and it worked out ok. The harmonisation went ok too. I Usually only deal with film for tv so it was a lot less painless of a transition without consulting someone like SoC or ER every ten seconds

Anyway, the future is high def, havent you heard?

Which post house uses FCP btw? screnscene?

Last edited by Dustaz; 13-12-2003 at 16:21.
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13-12-2003, 18:12   #40
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I dont think any features would go down this road. Ive done it once or twice for shorts and it worked out ok. The harmonisation went ok too. I Usually only deal with film for tv so it was a lot less painless of a transition without consulting someone like SoC or ER every ten seconds
Yeah I was brought onto a movie when it was found out the assistant and editor had set it up not noticing it was set for 25fps not 24fps...... n


Quote:
Anyway, the future is high def, havent you heard?
Praise Jesus....... The current fad route and I think it will stay this way for a while, is shoot 35m HD telecine to HD, dub to digi or sp for the offline, go to the HD for a conform for previews...... The big boys on major films still like to sit back after the shoot and watch projected film and probably still will, but thats one of the first things to go if the budget is tight..... But I doubt HD will replace film anytime soon.

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Which post house uses FCP btw? screnscene?
Yeah they've got one networked to their symphony......
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14-12-2003, 21:38   #41
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Originally posted by mycroft
[B
Yeah they've got one networked to their symphony...... [/B]
I dod a job on their symph on Saturday and no mention was made of FCP. Are you sure?

Symphony is an end-of-the-line piece of gear as far as I know...
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15-12-2003, 10:24   #42
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Postive

Symphony suite in their other building?

The big swish one?

The workstation docked beside the symphony next to the mixer is a G4 with final cut pro networked to the symphony....

Screen scene aren't lavish spenders and they'd never install a bit of kit they don't use........

One of their assistants is still a good friend and assures me my information is correct.
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15-12-2003, 12:17   #43
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Re: Postive

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Originally posted by mycroft

Screen scene aren't lavish spenders and they'd never install a bit of kit they don't use........
Would any post house do that?
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15-12-2003, 12:41   #44
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Yes

I know at least one post house that has alot of hi def equipment which is rarely if ever used.

They got it to keep up with the Jones as it were....

Never equate money with common sense.....
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19-04-2005, 12:36   #45
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Mycroft pointed out that it might be good to sticky this thread. Feel free to add your opinions about editing software, Audio or Visual, that you've used.

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