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Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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    #92
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Niallof9 wrote: »
    well i think the picture is becoming clearer now and it would make more sense as to why we are seeing such tripe at the moment. there has to be real fears now from the players. With that many out of contract, there will be blood. In no way should some of these guys continue on the top tier bracket. And at this stage the bluff of moving abroad should be called. I was never a fan of the ringfenced contracts, nor the ban on players abroad. An Aussie style cap system and more IRFU top up deals to certain provincial contracts would possibly be a fix. Cause either way if say Murray on his near 600k is given a paycut or an extension on that contract, it will be a negative. You'll have either an unhappy player or a player and an organisation living in denial. the chickens are finally coming home to roost on all this and i think people who argued the central contract thing and the players abroad thing are only a positive, and calling out anybody who saids otherwise as a wum, crazy, non conforming is finally being proven wrong. 90 players out of contract? we're in **** creek. Covid will just make the blind see. Central contracts for 3 years for a tiny minority was a mugs game when all is taken into consideration.

    It was of its time, it worked. Now they need to come up with something else. Its all funded by the IRFU i don't see why they can't move to in house provincial deals with nobody egged as a special star. All contracted provincially, with some paid more if they perform and are of that elite status. More performance related clauses like Liverpool apparently do(https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/liverpool-fc-change-player-contracts-3325019). But we don;t have to make a song and dance about how 12 players out of about 200 are the best of the best, and nearly certain of their spots and better sponsorship/opportunities due to big contracts. The repeated failures in the World Cup should really take away some of the players bargaining chips, and now you can reset with a largely youngish squad. Players who have over 50 caps could be in consideration if they move abroad. There's always been an issue here in the way unlike football or other team sports we can't sell or release some of these guys easily. Therefore perfomances from individuals can be all over the shop when theres no real disincentive to not perform.

    When are you going to get it into your head that centrally contracted players are not guaranteed their spot.


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    #93
    Niallof9
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,287 ✭✭✭Niallof9


    Deleted User wrote: »
    When are you going to get it into your head that centrally contracted players are not guaranteed their spot.

    when will you get into your head that its a highly likely scenario. McGrath had Healy coming back and was waning himself, and Toner was in freefall. The latter is a real example of how central deals don't work. Even if its not a selection thing I have no evidence, and your rebuttal probably using these two is flimsy at best , how is that good for anybody? The player himself, the squad, the finances, the competing player. Its not and we've been living off the idea that we're the smartest guys in the room when it comes to this stuff. We ain't and Nuciforas comments highlight it. Even without Covid this would still be the scenario. Earls, Sexton, POM,MUrray would all still face huge cuts like SOB. An unhappy squad group, a pecking order being reshuffled. Central deals whatever the selection issue, should be retired. And when i say selection i'm talking about the squad selections. And if player A in squad on 2 year central deal gets dropped but is on 400k and is just holding bags, but player B is on 200k and now starting but has to wait another 2 years, to me this is a daft system. There's a tonne of other stuff probably involved with rights and sponsorship and exposure and match bonuses. we have no idea.


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    #94
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 40,983 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Best players get centrally contracted

    Best players more likely to be selected in squad

    Conspiracy theory abounds......


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    #95
    Niallof9
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,287 ✭✭✭Niallof9


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    Best players get centrally contracted

    Best players more likely to be selected in squad

    Conspiracy theory abounds......

    Yeah thats what i said great reply. I suppose what else do i expect from people who throw personal insults around. There's no argument to be had that the best players get deals.

    Do the best players perform consistently? going by Japan last year, the highest level, the answer has to be a no. what part of that do you not understand? SOB is the example of it in reality. We will have to see what happens with these deals. But its a busted flush if these lads get central deals.

    I am arguing to do away with central deals and the like. make of that what you will but try to argue the point rather than with cheap replies.


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    #96
    EachSmallChime
    Registered Users Posts: 192 ✭✭EachSmallChime


    Former Former Former wrote: »
    In fairness, very few of them are relevant to the national team, the vast majority left because they had to if they wanted to play pro rugby. TBH, there's a few in there I'd never even heard of.

    The only people who really left while still wanted here have been Johnny Sexton (you forgot him), D Ryan, Madigan and Zebo - and really only Sexton was crucial, D Ryan not far behind but Madigan and Zebo were not huge losses. The likes of O'Brien and Paul O'Connell were winding down and looking for a final payday.

    The big losers of an exodus abroad would be the provinces. The national team might have to swallow its pride and start picking the exiles but the provinces would be screwed.

    Which in turn means Thomond and the RDS stop selling out because of poor Euro performances, ticket prices for international games drops and there's less money to spread around the provinces promoting the game. This in turn means, there's less interest in rugby and you could potentially have a smaller pool to pick from.

    Sounds a bit dramatic but there are long term knock on effects to weakening provinces. Rugby's popularity in Ireland shouldn't be taken for granted.


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    #97
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 40,983 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Former Former Former wrote: »
    In fairness, very few of them are relevant to the national team, the vast majority left because they had to if they wanted to play pro rugby. TBH, there's a few in there I'd never even heard of.

    The only people who really left while still wanted here have been Johnny Sexton (you forgot him), D Ryan, Madigan and Zebo - and really only Sexton was crucial, D Ryan not far behind but Madigan and Zebo were not huge losses. The likes of O'Brien and Paul O'Connell were winding down and looking for a final payday.

    The big losers of an exodus abroad would be the provinces. The national team might have to swallow its pride and start picking the exiles but the provinces would be screwed.

    in fairness, relevance to the national team was not at all what was being discussed.

    i replied to
    I understand the idea of having strong clubs but would the provinces weaken all that much if 3 or 4 or so players left every now and again. Take injuries for an example. Look what happened to Munster in the last 2 years. Take out a few key players and they still found replacements. I just think there is too much fear about what will happen to clubs if a number of players leave. It's not as though we would see busloads heading overseas.

    busloads have already headed abroad from the provinces over the last 10 years. it happens.

    Is it within the IRFUs interest to hold onto as many top class players as they can, on this island, of course it is.


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    #98
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 40,983 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Niallof9 wrote: »
    Yeah thats what i said great reply. I suppose what else do i expect from people who throw personal insults around.

    sorry, cant hear you over the hyperbole... :rolleyes::rolleyes:


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    #99
    Solutionking
    Closed Accounts Posts: 678 ✭✭✭Solutionking


    Former Former Former wrote: »
    Honestly, the biggest change required in the next few years is for the fans to accept that the current batch of players might not be as good as their predecessors.

    I think the biggest shock will be when people figure out how great a coach Schmidt was. The treatment that man got when he left was a disgrace.


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    #100
    aloooof
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,214 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    Niallof9 wrote: »
    the chickens are finally coming home to roost on all this and i think people who argued the central contract thing and the players abroad thing are only a positive, and calling out anybody who saids otherwise as a wum, crazy, non conforming is finally being proven wrong.

    I don't understand why you can't make your points in a reasoned manner instead of leaning towards inflammatory / emotive stuff like this. It seems pretty unnecessary. Anyways, I'm gonna leave it there...


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    #101
    Niallof9
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,287 ✭✭✭Niallof9


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    sorry, cant hear you over the hyperbole... :rolleyes::rolleyes:

    Funny i can barely hear you given how many times you've been proven wrong down the years. Its a surprise you're still going on here. but yeah i know 2018 was a great year so lets just live on that.

    I mean if simply questioning the system is hyperbole then Irish rugby is absolutely goosed. Jesus Christ. Are you in denial or something? Nucifora has said 90 contracts are up. The big contracts cost about 2 million. This is a perfect chance to discuss it. There's no point cutting these lads and just replacing them with say Connors or whomever. Either you have 30 central deals or none imo.


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    #102
    Solutionking
    Closed Accounts Posts: 678 ✭✭✭Solutionking


    Stander, Henderson, Sexton, Earls, POM, Furlong, Healy

    In reality out of that crop only Furlong and Hendo could get contracts. Stander is nailed on started now but he will be 33? by the time of next WC so no spring chicken plus we have a flood of options in his position.

    Second row we are light and Hendo is young
    Furlong is one of the few World Class players we have and a scrum with him and Porter would be immense

    With the financial restrictions they might have to let the rest go to pastures new


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    #103
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 40,983 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    are people at all surprised that in the season after a RWC we have older players coming out of central contracts who most likely wont be offered new ones??

    thats exactly how the system does and should work.


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    #104
    Niallof9
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,287 ✭✭✭Niallof9


    No thats not how it works at all. There's plenty of examples in the past where they were renewed. We have a host of top players not performing and if Covid wasn't a factor they would all be in line for new central deals. SOB is possibly the only elite guy who the IRFU called the bluff. The one guy who we could probably do with at the moment.

    The system is in line for an overhaul. The idea that contract systems can only be one way is nonsense. Liverpool are an example of this in sport. they completely overhauled their contract system. SOB is an example of the IRFU applying harsher methods in the injury stakes. He was simply injured too much to be paid 500k a year. So perhaps its a ripe time to move to a new path. Cause its not working. In the pyramid structure the provinces are top.


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    #105
    theVersatile
    Registered Users Posts: 1,914 ✭✭✭theVersatile


    Burns out, Harry Byrne in; per Murray Kinsella



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    #106
    Solutionking
    Closed Accounts Posts: 678 ✭✭✭Solutionking


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    are people at all surprised that in the season after a RWC we have older players coming out of central contracts who most likely wont be offered new ones??

    thats exactly how the system does and should work.

    Not surprised at all. I think some people are trying to say less central contracts will be offered but if I look at the players who's contracts are finished the only other person who I would offer is Stander.

    Sexton, Earls, POM, Healy should not be offered a contract even if covid never happened.


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    #107
    Solutionking
    Closed Accounts Posts: 678 ✭✭✭Solutionking


    Niallof9 wrote: »
    No thats not how it works at all. There's plenty of examples in the past where they were renewed. We have a host of top players not performing and if Covid wasn't a factor they would all be in line for new central deals. SOB is possibly the only elite guy who the IRFU called the bluff. The one guy who we could probably do with at the moment.

    The system is in line for an overhaul. The idea that contract systems can only be one way is nonsense. Liverpool are an example of this in sport. they completely overhauled their contract system. SOB is an example of the IRFU applying harsher methods in the injury stakes. He was simply injured too much to be paid 500k a year. So perhaps its a ripe time to move to a new path. Cause its not working. In the pyramid structure the provinces are top.

    Please provide some examples because I can't think of any.


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    #108
    Niallof9
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,287 ✭✭✭Niallof9


    Solutionking wrote: »
    Not surprised at all. I think some people are trying to say less central contracts will be offered but if I look at the players who's contracts are finished the only other person who I would offer is Stander.

    Sexton, Earls, POM, Healy should not be offered a contract even if covid never happened.

    But A) there's no guarantee they won't be and B) the problem is then you have about 6 guys on central deals. How in Gods name is that good in a 35 man squad? and then like i said we head into this realm where suddenly people like Keenan and Connors become central deals by default.

    People like me aren't surprised by anything. You have to ask yourself about the model we have. where does surprise come into that. And in the past we had plenty of lads offered deals beyond their sell by date or left on deals we couldn't shift. this is the issue. It can also directly explain whats happening. there has to be some unease at the moment.


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    #109
    aloooof
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,214 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    Solutionking wrote: »
    Please provide some examples because I can't think of any.

    I can think of examples of the opposite; I'm pretty certain D'arcy is on record as saying his contract offers from the IRFU dramatically dropped once he reached 30.


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    #110
    Niallof9
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,287 ✭✭✭Niallof9


    Solutionking wrote: »
    Please provide some examples because I can't think of any.

    Tommy Bowe is one off the top of my head.


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    #111
    Niallof9
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,287 ✭✭✭Niallof9


    aloooof wrote: »
    I can think of examples of the opposite; I'm pretty certain D'arcy is on record as saying his contract offers from the IRFU dramatically dropped once he reached 30.

    of course you can. what you seem unable to do is stick to the point. did i say anything about the value of the deal. Of course they will be reduced. The point is the contract on offer will be a central deal, because the IRFU has deemed that as the standard bearer. the "star" player gets the central deal, and on the vicious circle continues. Would be understandable if we could get past a WC qf. But we can't because i argue that the very nature of the central deal makes it a disincentive for performance and hinders proper pecking orders based on performance.


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    #112
    UAEguy2020
    Registered Users Posts: 2,098 ✭✭✭UAEguy2020


    Solutionking wrote: »
    I think the biggest shock will be when people figure out how great a coach Schmidt was. The treatment that man got when he left was a disgrace.

    Schmidt was and still is a great coach, that doesn’t excuse what happened in his final year, he deserves credit and respect for what he did but the reality is it was all about the World Cup and unlike previous coaches Schmidt had 2 bites of the cherry and in 2019 things were literally no different to 2015 only that it took a little longer for our opposition to go 20 points up.


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    #113
    Niallof9
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,287 ✭✭✭Niallof9


    UAEguy2020 wrote: »
    Schmidt was and still is a great coach, that doesn’t excuse what happened in his final year, he deserves credit and respect for what he did but the reality is it was all about the World Cup and unlike previous coaches Schmidt had 2 bites of the cherry and in 2019 things were literally no different to 2015 only that it took a little longer for our opposition to go 20 points up.

    Yeah i hold my hand up in this regard. I've been proven wrong. The positives totally outweighed the negatives. I just thought the players were better than they were. His failure to adapt also was frustrating. But it was all in the detail.


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    #114
    aloooof
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,214 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    theVersatile wrote: »
    Burns out, Harry Byrne in; per Murray Kinsella

    https://twitter.com/Murray_Kinsella/status/1333721055056310274?s=19

    That's disappointing, was hoping Burns could start (if possibly unlikely).


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    #115
    Solutionking
    Closed Accounts Posts: 678 ✭✭✭Solutionking


    Niallof9 wrote: »
    Tommy Bowe is one off the top of my head.

    Bowe was in cracking form when he signed his contract, then injuries hit.

    You are saying players got contracts when out of form and over 30, so please provide examples. You said plenty and came up with one which is not correct


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    #116
    Niallof9
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,287 ✭✭✭Niallof9


    Solutionking wrote: »
    Bowe was in cracking form when he signed his contract, then injuries hit.

    You are saying players got contracts when out of form and over 30, so please provide examples. You said plenty and came up with one which is not correct

    But i also argued that's the issue with the central deals. And Tommy Bowe was 30 when he signed meaning he was 33 when it was ending (injuries obviously did it in the end) Stupid stuff really. John Hayes got a deal at 35. Best was on one. Shall i go on. There's probably tonnes more. I'm hardly going to go through every deal. There's a very good chance KE, JS, POM, CM get one.

    Can people not argue why they think central deals are mostly positive instead of nitpicking.


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    #117
    Solutionking
    Closed Accounts Posts: 678 ✭✭✭Solutionking


    UAEguy2020 wrote: »
    Schmidt was and still is a great coach, that doesn’t excuse what happened in his final year, he deserves credit and respect for what he did but the reality is it was all about the World Cup and unlike previous coaches Schmidt had 2 bites of the cherry and in 2019 things were literally no different to 2015 only that it took a little longer for our opposition to go 20 points up.

    Incorrect. 2015 we had a completely different game plan and a small squad of circa 20 players. After that it was light. Hence why picking up those injuries including one of the best players in the World meant we didn't really have a replacement. Sexton would have been a huge loss to any team as he was in his peak. His loss with POC etc we just couldn't take. Remember in 2015 we won the 6 nations and went in full of confidence. The group stage we walked it.

    If Madigan had knocked over that kick I think we would have won that game.

    2019 the team was completely shot of confidence going into the competition and never really played well. Maybe it was Schmidt announcing he was leaving, who knows.

    Two completely different situations.


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    #118
    Solutionking
    Closed Accounts Posts: 678 ✭✭✭Solutionking


    Niallof9 wrote: »
    But i also argued that's the issue with the central deals. And Tommy Bowe was 30 when he signed meaning he was 33 when it was ending. Stupid stuff really.

    Still waiting for all those examples.


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    #119
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Niallof9 wrote: »
    when will you get into your head that its a highly likely scenario. McGrath had Healy coming back and was waning himself, and Toner was in freefall. The latter is a real example of how central deals don't work. Even if its not a selection thing I have no evidence, and your rebuttal probably using these two is flimsy at best , how is that good for anybody? The player himself, the squad, the finances, the competing player. Its not and we've been living off the idea that we're the smartest guys in the room when it comes to this stuff. We ain't and Nuciforas comments highlight it. Even without Covid this would still be the scenario. Earls, Sexton, POM,MUrray would all still face huge cuts like SOB. An unhappy squad group, a pecking order being reshuffled. Central deals whatever the selection issue, should be retired. And when i say selection i'm talking about the squad selections. And if player A in squad on 2 year central deal gets dropped but is on 400k and is just holding bags, but player B is on 200k and now starting but has to wait another 2 years, to me this is a daft system. There's a tonne of other stuff probably involved with rights and sponsorship and exposure and match bonuses. we have no idea.

    You've been led to water so many times on this regarding guaranteed selection. Everyone is wrong and you are right. There's no point with you.


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    #120
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 40,983 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    tommy bowes contract was renewed in 2014... a year BEFORE the 2015 RWC

    so the point still stands
    that in the season after a RWC we have older players coming out of central contracts who most likely wont be offered new ones

    unless you can find an actual example


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    #121
    Niallof9
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,287 ✭✭✭Niallof9


    Solutionking wrote: »
    Still waiting for all those examples.

    Still waiting for people like you to argue the opposite viewpoint. Why are central deals not a negative thing? How does having 11-13 guys on star deals suit a 35 man quad game where form and injury are wildly oscillating. As i said Hayes was offered one. Best (you could argue he was done after the NZ game). Toner got one when clearly waning.

    Furlong, Henderson, Stander, Ringrose, Stockdale, James Ryan are now on them. Lets say they cut the others how is that an ideal situation going forward? who gets the stamp of approval for the star deals?


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