Non-payment of Management fees in an apartment complex.

Sleepy · 23-03-2016 4:29pm

Once the payers "opt in" for the thank you, I don't see how it could contravene data protection? The persons about whom the data has been collected have consented to it's publication.

That this allows one to deduce the identity of other parties could hardly be considered a breach?

selous · 23-03-2016 6:31pm

This is what happens when Management fees aren't paid, the agent leaves and bins aren't collected, insurance not paid and no maintenance to grounds. yet, the people renting are paying for bin collection inclusive in rent. should be fun by summer.
The estate has every problem going, dodgy sewage, cracks and leaks in walls, Council told us it was our own fault for buying them, (yes, seriously) but they never drew down the insurance bond to use it on anything, as we were a "privately managed estate" it went when Anglo Irish Bank went the receiver told us 2 years ago.

paul71 · 25-03-2016 9:50pm

blacklilly wrote: »

Interestingly, however I have heard recently of a Mgt Co, whom after having judgement mortgages registered against various non payers, they then published their details in the Stubbs Gazette (or similar) and subsequent to this, published their names at the AGM. The argument being, their details are already in public forum due to be published in Stubbs Gazette.

Stubbs Gazette is not the relevent public record in this instance it is the courts record of the judgement that is the matter of public record and that is why the judgement can be published in stubbs.

dubrov · 25-03-2016 11:28pm

SarahMollie wrote: »

Those who've said they're against any remuneration to Directors - are you Directors yourselves or just ordinary members of your MC's?

I'll definitely be asking about it when we meet next Tuesday.

I'm a PAYE worker myself so would hope that I wouldn't have to file a separate tax return for such a nominal amount of money. Happy to pay tax on it though of course, as with any income.

I am also a director but not completely against the idea of payment as there is time involved and if it encourages directors to commit their time then it could be positive for the management company,

Ideally, it should be possible to get members to act as directors out of interest in running the development alone. The problem is everyone else is hoping someone else will take care of it and it tends to be the same people year on year who have to step in.

I am not convinced remuneration attracts a better quality of director and may actually attract those looking for monetary gain only.

pwurple · 26-03-2016 8:10am

Director of management company here too. Never received a payment for it, our units are easy enough to manage though, so i couldn't justify it. It doesn't take much of my time apart from a couple of meetings and emails/letters.

April 73 · 26-03-2016 9:06pm

Ex-director here. We never took any payment for the work we did as directors & also paid the same service charge as everyone else. The work involved in the early years when we took over from the developer was considerable, but that lessened as we got things running effectively.
My own opinion is that it is better not to take a payment.

Lantus · 26-03-2016 11:14pm

Non payment of directors is typically a standard clause in normal omc set up.

beaufoy · 28-03-2016 11:06am

Arbiter of Good Taste wrote: »

As an owner you are the "management company". If there is a third party managing the estate on your behalf, they are your "agent". If you are unhappy with the level of service, then vote to change the agent - or better yet arrange with the other owners to run the estate yourself.

Or is it just easier to come onto boards and whinge about being "robbed"? :rolleyes:

What can you do if you are deprived of contact details of other owners

athtrasna · 28-03-2016 11:15am

beaufoy wrote: »

What can you do if you are deprived of contact details of other owners

Knock on doors? Drop letters?

beaufoy · 28-03-2016 2:38pm

athtrasna wrote: »

Knock on doors? Drop letters?

Ok let us look at this remedy
The vast majority of the apartments are rented so knocking on doors and dropping letters will not work
Going to the AGM again will not work because it has been pointed out in an earlier post
"Im in a development with about 150 apartments....at our agm each year we get a whooping turnout, usually about 8 people and thats including the directors!"
There is another idea which is to ask the directors of the OMC for contact details of all members, but the directors can claim the members do not want their contact details released. Of course this will probably be a lie but there is no way to prove it to be a lie without the contact details which have already been requsted

Paulw · 28-03-2016 3:50pm

beaufoy wrote: »

There is another idea which is to ask the directors of the OMC for contact details of all members, but the directors can claim the members do not want their contact details released.

The Data Protection Act would forbid the directors from handing out that information, even if they wanted to give it to you.

You don't directly have the right to someone's contact information. So, knocking on doors and/or writing letters is still your best way to contact the members of the management company.

jd · 28-03-2016 6:12pm

Paulw wrote: »

The Data Protection Act would forbid the directors from handing out that information, even if they wanted to give it to you.

You don't directly have the right to someone's contact information. So, knocking on doors and/or writing letters is still your best way to contact the members of the management company.

I'm not sure this is the case - an OMC is still bound by company law.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1963/act/33/section/116/enacted/en/html

116.—(1) Subject to subsection (4), every company shall keep a register of its members and enter therein the following particulars:—

(a) the names, addresses and occupations of the members, and, in the case of a company having a share capital, a statement of the shares held by each member, distinguishing each share by its number so long as the share has a number, and of the amount paid or agreed to be considered as paid on the shares of each member;

The register may be inspected
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2014/act/38/section/216/enacted/en/html

(7) A register or document to which this section applies shall, during business hours (except, in the case of the members' register, when it is closed under section 174 ), be open to inspection in accordance with subsections (8) to (10).

(8) Every such register or document shall be open to the inspection of any member of the company without charge.

(9) The following shall be open to the inspection of any other person, on payment of the relevant fee:

(a) the directors' and secretaries' register;

(b) the disclosable interests register;

(c) the members' register.

Also something about on the ODCE web site

http://www.odce.ie/Portals/0/Documents/Media%20and%20Publications/Publications/Other%20Guidance/Chap%2011.pdf

[11.07] Another way in which the register of members is important is that it is a means by
which members of the management company may seek to ascertain the necessary contact
details for one another. An ability for members to get in contact with one another may be
essential in order that alliances can be formed amongst members, perhaps with a view to
bringing about change in the company; or, at any rate, so that members who seek to bring
about change should have at least the means to gauge the extent to which other members
might be willing to support them. For example, a member who wishes to become a director of
the management company might wish to write to other members (whose names and
addresses he/she does not already know) for the purpose of seeking to persuade them that
they should vote for him/her at a forthcoming AGM of the company. Alternatively, where some
members wish to have an EGM convened for some particular purpose,145 they may need to
try to gain the support of at least some other members so as to satisfy the statutory precondition
that a members’ request for an EGM must come from members whose combined
voting rights at general meetings of the management company is at least 10% of the total
voting rights of all the company’s members

Lantus · 28-03-2016 8:42pm

The members register contains each unit owners name and address as a minimum. The mud act now requires some additional info where directors deem required.

Any member (and indeed anyone) can formally request the list of members in a company by making such a request.

However it contains no financial information. Its the financial component which is covered by data protection. You can't say Dave at no 14 has not paid. That's a breach.

Paulw · 28-03-2016 10:11pm

I stand corrected.

Cheers lads.

beaufoy · 29-03-2016 5:32am

Lantus wrote: »

The members register contains each unit owners name and address as a minimum. The mud act now requires some additional info where directors deem required.

Any member (and indeed anyone) can formally request the list of members in a company by making such a request.

However it contains no financial information. Its the financial component which is covered by data protection. You can't say Dave at no 14 has not paid. That's a breach.

useful info thanks

beaufoy · 29-03-2016 5:34am

jd wrote: »

I'm not sure this is the case - an OMC is still bound by company law.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1963/act/33/section/116/enacted/en/html

The register may be inspected
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2014/act/38/section/216/enacted/en/html

Also something about on the ODCE web site

http://www.odce.ie/Portals/0/Documents/Media%20and%20Publications/Publications/Other%20Guidance/Chap%2011.pdf

well informed thanks for info

SarahMollie · 31-03-2016 3:46pm

SarahMollie wrote: »

Actually, just while there are some fellow directors on here - quick question.

I was appointed as a director at our last AGM about a month ago. I notices that in the "Directors Report and Financial Statement" document, there is a subsection entitles Transactions with Directors" where each appears to be paid a sum of money (few hundred each). I'm assuming this is some sort of compensation for time and effort, as most owners don't even turn up to the AGM, let alone volunteer to take on the work of being a director.

Is this normal? I've not asked about it yet in my own case, but it would be nice to have our work rewarded and I could use it to offset some of my own costs.

Hi all,

So just to come back on an earlier point. I had a meeting wtih the Board of Directors and our MA last night, as we have an urgent issue to address.

The MA said that while there is a provision for payment to directors (what I'd seen in the Directors Report), but this has never actually been paid out, so yes everyone who is on the Board is doing it out of the goodness of their hearts

We're going to have to go back to the members to seek additional funds to cover a special piece of work that needs doing rather urgently. Now quite glad that this is a non issue, as I think it would make this task a bit more uncomfortable.

Thankfully, we've all the maintenance fees paid currently which is great, but not sure how asking for extra money is going to go down!

MarkAnthony · 01-04-2016 3:22pm

I see our Management Co (the agent) has been putting the screws on a few sellers including a couple of Financial Institutions of late. Quite a bit of money recouped, worth every penny of his fee.

SarahMollie · 01-04-2016 3:29pm

MarkAnthony wrote: »

I see our Management Co (the agent) has been putting the screws on a few sellers including a couple of Financial Institutions of late. Quite a bit of money recouped, worth every penny of his fee.

This is great to see. As someone who would never not pay, I would gaul me to see people getting away with that in the long run.

Personally I've been impressed with what I've seen from the agent in my development. We've no fees in arrears at the moment, which is great, and I'd say a lot of that is due to the fact that they run a tight ship. When the letters are sent out requesting payment of fees on an annual basis, the steps that the MA will take to recover fees and the associated penalties are clearly laid out.

MarkAnthony · 01-04-2016 3:34pm

SarahMollie wrote: »

This is great to see. As someone who would never not pay, I would gaul me to see people getting away with that in the long run.

Personally I've been impressed with what I've seen from the agent in my development. We've no fees in arrears at the moment, which is great, and I'd say a lot of that is due to the fact that they run a tight ship. When the letters are sent out requesting payment of fees on an annual basis, the steps that the MA will take to recover fees and the associated penalties are clearly laid out.

If the OMC can play the long game it's always best to. You end up with no costs and interest on the unpaid fees. It's great if you can get 100% compliance but I'd say it's a real rarity.

SarahMollie · 01-04-2016 3:41pm

MarkAnthony wrote: »

If the OMC can play the long game it's always best to. You end up with no costs and interest on the unpaid fees. It's great if you can get 100% compliance but I'd say it's a real rarity.

Yeah it can have advantages, unless it gets to the point where the OMC doesn't have enough money to run day to day things like bins, insurance etc. If its just a few and they're run up some nice late fees, then its a nice bonus for the sinking fund.

I suppose I'm lucky in that where I live, its a reasonably mature development, and there are two particular professional landlords in there (1 is the original developer) and they own about 1/3 between them, and we can always rely on that chunk coming in on time as they pay like clockwork. The rest is mostly owner occupied, and there is quite a mature demographic, ie lots of people who have maybe traded down (I'm the youngest person at any meeting by about 20 years!)

Also, our Agent also allows people to pay quarterly/monthly by direct debit, so its really not too onerous.

andekwarhola · 02-04-2016 10:59pm

MarkAnthony wrote: »

I see our Management Co (the agent) has been putting the screws on a few sellers including a couple of Financial Institutions of late. Quite a bit of money recouped, worth every penny of his fee.

Good to see. Changing our agent was best thing we ever done.

We've also managed to recoup lump outstanding fees on one or two properties after repossession or selling in the past.

Dr Bolouswki · 19-01-2021 11:25pm

Due to significant health problems, redundancy and now the pandemic, I not only can only pay my fee's intermmitently, but I cannot even pay my mortgage. I have nowhere to go and am currently looking at MTR scheme.

At the start of my difficulties (Jan 1018) we changed agents. Our fee's in the interim have gone from €1250 a year to €2000 a year. The agent is somewhat evasive about providing accounts as they claim that the costs are pooled across a number of properties (they manage 5000 properties in Ireland) and that individual complex accounts are difficult to do. Our complex also has over 55% ownership by a single buy-to-rent company - I find it hard to imagine they would accept a 75% increase over 2 years?

I am paying approx 55% a year but obviously arrears accumlate. Despite this, and my candid assertions to the agent that any arrears will be paid if a)MTR results in apartment being sold b)I am foreclosed - they are still sending threatening communications indicating that they will get sherriff orders to repossess any of my possessions. I have very little, I want to get sorted long term, but my situation is very difficult.

I've asked them to take things easier - but they are back now to making demands, I assume because the turn of the year caused some sort of threshold to be passed.

Where do I stand with trying to get them back off a bit? What are the implications if they won't? Thanks for any info.

Dav010 · 19-01-2021 11:37pm

Dr Bolouswki wrote: »

Due to significant health problems, redundancy and now the pandemic, I not only can only pay my fee's intermmitently, but I cannot even pay my mortgage. I have nowhere to go and am currently looking at MTR scheme.

At the start of my difficulties (Jan 1018) we changed agents. Our fee's in the interim have gone from €1250 a year to €2000 a year. The agent is somewhat evasive about providing accounts as they claim that the costs are pooled across a number of properties (they manage 5000 properties in Ireland) and that individual complex accounts are difficult to do. Our complex also has over 55% ownership by a single buy-to-rent company - I find it hard to imagine they would accept a 75% increase over 2 years?

I am paying approx 55% a year but obviously arrears accumlate. Despite this, and my candid assertions to the agent that any arrears will be paid if a)MTR results in apartment being sold b)I am foreclosed - they are still sending threatening communications indicating that they will get sherriff orders to repossess any of my possessions. I have very little, I want to get sorted long term, but my situation is very difficult.

I've asked them to take things easier - but they are back now to making demands, I assume because the turn of the year caused some sort of threshold to be passed.

Where do I stand with trying to get them back off a bit? What are the implications if they won't? Thanks for any info.

Did you attend the AGM? MC subscriptions are discussed for the coming year and voted on. You can contact the Board of management and ask for a copy of the minutes. Just bare in mind, if you don’t attend AGMs, it is pointless complaining about the decisions make at it.

If you sell your property, a letter from the MC will be required by the buyer’s solicitor confirming all fees are paid, without it, a sale will be difficult. The MC can also apply to the court for a lien which means the outstanding fees must be paid when the property is sold.

20-01-2021 12:02am

I was Secretary of the Management Company for my MUD and had the boyfriend of a resident/leaseholder who was not paying their management fee knock on my door and not so subtly but not overtly either threaten me because Solicitors engaged by the Management Company, i.e. I and the other Directors, were persistently sending letters to her pursuing the unpaid Management fee. The boyfriend had no registered interest in the dwelling but was living with the leaseholder.
I only managed to successfully resign from the Management Company Secretary position when I sold my Apartment. No one had stepped up to relieve me of duty until then.
Decent people who were short of cash approached Directors and paid in stages and nobody know who was hard up or not.
We even moved payment date away from Christmas to make things easier on people.

The whole thing consumed huge amounts of time but most especially when conveyancing solicitors were sending requests for information prior to sale of apartments.

Dr Bolouswki · 20-01-2021 12:36am

Dav010 wrote: »

Did you attend the AGM? MC subscriptions are discussed for the coming year and voted on. You can contact the Board of management and ask for a copy of the minutes. Just bare in mind, if you don’t attend AGMs, it is pointless complaining about the decisions make at it.

If you sell your property, a letter from the MC will be required by the buyer’s solicitor confirming all fees are paid, without it, a sale will be difficult. The MC can also apply to the court for a lien which means the outstanding fees must be paid when the property is sold.

I did and I voted. I understand about the implications on sale as indicated in the post. It's the interim period I suppose I'm seeking advice on.

jeffwebb36 · 20-01-2021 4:05am

the normal procedure is to wait until you sell the apt and then retrieve your missing fees. I failed to pay my fees for nearly a year and threats were made to take me to court, but they did not do as threatened. Concerning the AGM I was not invited to said meeting because they knew me to be a trouble maker

jeffwebb36 · 20-01-2021 4:16am

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Not paying is theft, pure and simple. For which you will - eventually - get caught.

a very simple attitude in fact if the repairs are not being done or the fees are way above the costs and threats are made to residents who do not pay...then it could be classed as extortion

Dav010 · 20-01-2021 8:14am

jeffwebb36 wrote: »

a very simple attitude in fact if the repairs are not being done or the fees are way above the costs and threats are made to residents who do not pay...then it could be classed as extortion

Fees are always above costs to ensure the legally required sinking fund is in place. Also, it is difficult to do all repairs when people don’t pay their fees.

Incidentally, paying your MC fees is a legal requirement.

Dr Boluski, the only options available to the MC in the short term are to get a court judgement for the amount owed, and anything else which is in the MC contract, such as denying you a vote at AGM, some MCs won’t give you codes to gates ( I think that has been tested in court, so someone else might confirm), denied access to other amenities on site etc. If the bank is going to repossess your house, a judgement against you by your MC is not going to make much difference to your situation.

I would suggest you engage again with the MC and outline in clear terms the dire situation you unfortunately find yourself in. As a former director on an MC, I can assure you that we had very different attitudes to those who can’t, and those who won’t pay fees. Contact Board members, not the agent who are likely to be impersonal.

beaufoy · 20-01-2021 11:22am

Dav010 wrote: »

Fees are always above costs to ensure the legally required sinking fund is in place. Also, it is difficult to do all repairs when people don’t pay their fees.

Incidentally, paying your MC fees is a legal requirement.

Dr Boluski, the only options available to the MC in the short term are to get a court judgement for the amount owed, and anything else which is in the MC contract, such as denying you a vote at AGM, some MCs won’t give you codes to gates ( I think that has been tested in court, so someone else might confirm), denied access to other amenities on site etc. If the bank is going to repossess your house, a judgement against you by your MC is not going to make much difference to your situation.

I would suggest you engage again with the MC and outline in clear terms the dire situation you unfortunately find yourself in. As a former director on an MC, I can assure you that we had very different attitudes to those who can’t, and those who won’t pay fees. Contact Board members, not the agent who are likely to be impersonal.

it is also difficult to pay for repairs if some of the money has gone missing by way of corruption

Non-payment of Management fees in an apartment complex.

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