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Alternative careers for chartered engineer?

  • 05-08-2020 8:03pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 53 ✭✭


    Hey everyone. Hoping you can help me. I'm a chartered structural engineer and have been working for about 10 years in a consultancy.

    Over the years I've encountered bouts of stress and they've been getting worse and worse over time. I think it's largely due to the increased responsibility as a chartered engineer. I feel like I have very limited engineering knowledge and I'm just running around trying to manage projects.

    This all worries me, especially when I compare myself to my own manager whose own engineering knowledge is second to none. He barely touches a piece of software and has such an amazing ability to do hand calculations without any reference material. I have none of that. I am relying on computer software and some basic hand checks, as well as younger engineers working with me.

    I feel like I do not have the time to properly dedicate myself to a project. I would love nothing more than to sit down for a full day designing beams by hand, but this business just seems to be rush rush rush. Get the job done on time, but it also needs to be perfect. You rarely can achieve both.

    I am wondering what options there are for me? I was thinking of maybe asking to become a technician, or even move to a civil engineering role. I'd also be willing to change career path entirely, but I'm not sure what I could do without some course or other degree behind me.

    I'm so stressed that I'm at the point where I feel like handing in my notice tomorrow without any job lined up.


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Comments

  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,123 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatFromHue


    Have you thought about speaking to a therapist about your lack of confidence or how to deal with stress?

    A chartered engineer with 10 years experience would seem to me like an experienced person. You don't mention any big mistakes either so it sounds like you're getting the job done even if you worry about it.

    Stress is a killer so you have to be aware of that and if you don't like your current position why not move to a less stressful one?


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,201 ✭✭✭✭mickdw


    Resident Engineer type role might suit you.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,515 ✭✭✭Outkast_IRE


    What you are describing is becoming increasingly common in most engineering consultancies. I honestly think the industry is walking itself into a crisis , the standard of students coming through is getting lower and lower for alot of disciplines and those graduates that are any good are worked to the bone and it kills their love of engineering.

    I work for an international consultancy which tries to pride itself on being employee owned and always claiming they are striving for work life balance . In the last month alone in our office we have had a project manager with about 7 years experience hand in notice to go back to convert to secondary teaching (possible with a 2 year conversion masters) . We have had an associate level engineer hand in notice to leave and go find something else - just 100% not happy with the stress levels and job satisfaction, dont think they had anything lined up. And have some project engineers with circa 3-4 years experience finish up to go back and do a masters full time in another area.

    They were all very good at their jobs, but largely the stress levels, work load and renumeration are not compatible.
    I am looking at some courses for next year or to change roles entirely.

    There are loads of opportunities out there for retraining or different roles.
    Have a look at springboard at the moment , loads of choices for very little money.

    With regards to confidence - Understand this now , nobody expects you to be able to do calculations at the drop of the hat. Some of the older guys can do them cause they had to manually do them hundreds of thousands of times. What is important in engineering is to understand its ok not to know the answer off the top of your head, the important part is knowing what to reference or check in order to do them and give the correct answer. Never feel you need to give an answer on the spot, it can take decades of experience to be able to have that level of skill.


  • Registered Users Posts: 53 ✭✭engineerfear1


    CatFromHue wrote: »
    Have you thought about speaking to a therapist about your lack of confidence or how to deal with stress?

    A chartered engineer with 10 years experience would seem to me like an experienced person. You don't mention any big mistakes either so it sounds like you're getting the job done even if you worry about it.

    Stress is a killer so you have to be aware of that and if you don't like your current position why not move to a less stressful one?

    I haven't made any major mistakes, but there have been occasions where something has been picked up during checking procedures. I know that's why they're there in the first place, but I can't help but think "how could I have missed that". Even though I've done everything to develop a project to where it is, sometimes I can't see the wood for the trees and miss things, if that makes any sense.
    mickdw wrote: »
    Resident Engineer type role might suit you.

    Maybe, although the thoughts of being on a site all day and shifting from location to location for projects doesn't really appeal to me.
    What you are describing is becoming increasingly common in most engineering consultancies. I honestly think the industry is walking itself into a crisis , the standard of students coming through is getting lower and lower for alot of disciplines and those graduates that are any good are worked to the bone and it kills their love of engineering.

    I work for an international consultancy which tries to pride itself on being employee owned and always claiming they are striving for work life balance . In the last month alone in our office we have had a project manager with about 7 years experience hand in notice to go back to convert to secondary teaching (possible with a 2 year conversion masters) . We have had an associate level engineer hand in notice to leave and go find something else - just 100% not happy with the stress levels and job satisfaction, dont think they had anything lined up. And have some project engineers with circa 3-4 years experience finish up to go back and do a masters full time in another area.

    They were all very good at their jobs, but largely the stress levels, work load and renumeration are not compatible.
    I am looking at some courses for next year or to change roles entirely.

    There are loads of opportunities out there for retraining or different roles.
    Have a look at springboard at the moment , loads of choices for very little money.

    With regards to confidence - Understand this now , nobody expects you to be able to do calculations at the drop of the hat. Some of the older guys can do them cause they had to manually do them hundreds of thousands of times. What is important in engineering is to understand its ok not to know the answer off the top of your head, the important part is knowing what to reference or check in order to do them and give the correct answer. Never feel you need to give an answer on the spot, it can take decades of experience to be able to have that level of skill.

    My biggest problem is that I don't feel I have the time to dedicate myself to a project. I'm jumping from one thing to another without being able to focus my mind fully on one thing. I would have the confidence if I was allowed an appropriate amount of time to do detailed design, but it just doesn't happen. I think this industry is becoming a race to the bottom with fees and the only way to make money is to resort to quantity over quality.

    I approached senior management and while they were sympathetic, it came down to "it's all part of the job unfortunately" or "I get stressed from time to time as well". It doesn't really give me any confidence, especially if I have another 35 or so years of this. The thoughts!


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,221 ✭✭✭wally1990


    I'm not going to be any help but just more of an insight. (whether it is accurate or not this is what I heard)

    I work in an accountants and my client came here in November to meet me who is a contractor (engineer) and we had a cup of tea and general chit chat whilst we sorted his financial affairs.

    I was asking how's the day job going.

    Well this gentleman is in his early 50s and christ he let it all out and I felt so sorry because it was Clear it was building up and he couldn't or didn't talk to his peers and had no wife to vent.

    He basically was saying he feels like he is running around with projects, it's all rush rush rush rush , that the younger fellas coming through are a totally different type of person to his day and its gotten very competitive and the industry is toxic!!

    I know nothing about his day to day role but continued to ask questions because it just felt right and he proceeded to tell me that the younger generation of engineers will nearly back stab each other plus work all hours god sends and constantly will be on late night emails etc to move up the ladder

    He said he is often horrified by what stuff they say in group meetings or advise on engineering projects/tasks in general (I presume he is referring to poor education or lack of experience)

    He said the pressure in the role is just too much nowadays for him and he was thinking of taking time out or a career change even at his age

    He was just so defeated by the job I felt so sorry for him!!

    So when I saw your post it instantly reminded me of a similar story


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  • Registered Users Posts: 34 ingeneer


    I've been in the same boat at numerous times since I graduated (coming up on ten years experience also - chartered structural engineer). I've found the company you work for has a lot to do with it, in terms of the people and the type of work they do. I've had bosses who stopped the technical side of things years ago and just deflect all the work downwards and apply pressure. Worked for crap developers who want everything yesterday and designed to the absolute bone. Also the technicians in your company make a massive difference - a good technician is worth their weight in gold. If I could go back in time I'd 100% change my college choice to get away from the construction industry. I see the same horrible conditions in the other construction professionals (QS, PM, M&E etc etc.). Working in construction is just not good in my eyes.

    I was lucky to move jobs last year, and my role at the moment isn't the worst. Got a decent bump in salary, and my colleagues and the clients are a lot better. Having said that I still want an exit plan as a COVID paycut is a possibility and I can't see myself doing this for the next decade. One thing that's really annoying me at the moment is seeing other industries with Working From Home benefits, whereas there is huge resistance to that in my gig from what I've seen. Any opportunity and we are straight back in the office.

    Some of the options for you I see are:

    Get into a Local Authority, ESB, Irish Water etc
    Try get into a niche such as pharma, data centres, high tech stuff where the superstructure design is a bit simpler at least
    Go out on your own and do one off houses, small steel frames etc.
    Go client side PM for one of the American multinationals
    Go client side in general if possible
    Do a one year conversion course in Accounting/Finance/Software/Data Analytics (springboard or similar) and never look back
    Change to BIM co-ordinator role or similar (although I've seen tough gigs in this too)
    If going back and doing teaching floats your boat consider it (Maths, Physics, Engineering etc)
    Maybe lecturing in an IT or Uni

    Remember you can always go back to the engineering (especially now you have your chartership), at the rate the industry changes you won't miss much. Also, I don't hear of many people regretting the decision - if you have thought about it at length for a long time there must be something in it (saying this to myself also!).

    Edit: Oh, also sales. Try get a job with Autodesk, Hilti, etc as technical support/sales


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,515 ✭✭✭Outkast_IRE


    If i was a structural engineer i would be looking at getting in with local authority or a resident engineer position on a large project.

    Outside of that as i said above look at springboard at the moment and knuckle down for the year. As an engineer you have lots of valuable skills that are applicable to many fields such as decent understanding of maths, problem solving, working in a team, IT literacy, Physics, Communications etc. generally if an engineer does a conversion course they are in good shape to gain employment .


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,805 ✭✭✭budhabob


    Another option would be to get into a heavily regulated industry like rail, aviation etc. Due to the regulatory approvals required the pace of work is slower than elsewhere with more considered decisions?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,621 ✭✭✭Turbulent Bill


    My biggest problem is that I don't feel I have the time to dedicate myself to a project. I'm jumping from one thing to another without being able to focus my mind fully on one thing. I would have the confidence if I was allowed an appropriate amount of time to do detailed design, but it just doesn't happen. I think this industry is becoming a race to the bottom with fees and the only way to make money is to resort to quantity over quality.

    I approached senior management and while they were sympathetic, it came down to "it's all part of the job unfortunately" or "I get stressed from time to time as well". It doesn't really give me any confidence, especially if I have another 35 or so years of this. The thoughts!

    It's a fallacy to think you can do everything (and especially everything perfectly) in a project, and surely your management recognise this too. I'm guessing that you're a hard-working, diligent and competent engineer who is being exploited because it's convenient for your employer.

    Think carefully about your value to the company, and what you like doing. Pitch a new role description for yourself to the company that covers this, selling why it's good for them (and you). The exercise alone will help you sort out what you want in a career.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,621 ✭✭✭Turbulent Bill


    budhabob wrote: »
    Another option would be to get into a heavily regulated industry like rail, aviation etc. Due to the regulatory approvals required the pace of work is slower than elsewhere with more considered decisions?

    Regulated industries have enormous documentation and standardisation overheads; the workload is usually a lot bigger.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,805 ✭✭✭budhabob


    Regulated industries have enormous documentation and standardisation overheads; the workload is usually a lot bigger.

    But the pace of work is generally slower as a result ...deadlines are more fluid given programme risk associated with regulatory approvals. Ive worked in these industries my whole career to date.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,016 ✭✭✭onrail


    Great thread OP - I’m in the exact same boat, 9 years exp chartered Geotech and to my shame I’ve been posting on boards for about 5 years about a career change without taking action. We probably both have found out that the promised sunny uplands of Chartership were a sham!

    Been attempting to move to LA/client side for the last 6 months, but far too specialised to offer a generalist role that they’re typically looking for.

    Interested to see how you get on with a conversion course or career change - keep us updated!


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,315 ✭✭✭Pkiernan


    If i was a structural engineer i would be looking at getting in with local authority or a resident engineer position on a large project.

    .

    99.7% of public service job openings are filled by existing public servant workers.
    Its a closed shop to hard working private workers unfortunately.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,515 ✭✭✭Outkast_IRE


    Pkiernan wrote: »
    99.7% of public service job openings are filled by existing public servant workers.
    Its a closed shop to hard working private workers unfortunately.
    It depends on what level you are going in at , but there has been a good few people move to local authority positions from my company over the last few years.

    The guys who got the jobs were typically circa 5 - 10 years experience . I would imagine it would be harder to get into from the outside at more senior levels & management alright.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,315 ✭✭✭Pkiernan


    It depends on what level you are going in at , but there has been a good few people move to local authority positions from my company over the last few years.

    The guys who got the jobs were typically circa 5 - 10 years experience . I would imagine it would be harder to get into from the outside at more senior levels & management alright.

    The lockout is effectively made by requiring new entrants to start at the bottom of any pay scale.
    I'm not going to take a 50k plus cut, when some jobsworth in the Council can go in at the top end of the scale.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,621 ✭✭✭Turbulent Bill


    budhabob wrote: »
    But the pace of work is generally slower as a result ...deadlines are more fluid given programme risk associated with regulatory approvals. Ive worked in these industries my whole career to date.

    That hasn't been my experience, and I've worked in multiple regulated and non-regulated industries. Maybe it depends on the type of industry (mine have all been tech development of some sort).


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,201 ✭✭✭✭mickdw


    That hasn't been my experience, and I've worked in multiple regulated and non-regulated industries. Maybe it depends on the type of industry (mine have all been tech development of some sort).

    Tech is a different animal.
    We are talking here of semi state / state agencies where the wheels turn slow.
    Lots of people gone from private sector into Irish Water for example. They have multiple levels of bullsh1t to keep many many technical staff in desk jobs.


  • Registered Users Posts: 824 ✭✭✭The chan chan man


    It may not be general confidence as some have suggested. You either get structures or you don’t. I’ve seen plenty of otherwise confident people working as CEng’s with me over the years, and some simply don’t get structures. If its not for you then there’s nothing wrong with that. Move on and do something else. I’m not exactly sure what else I would/could even do at this stage I’m doing structural engineering so long - which is a shame... I like to think I’d do something quirky and unusual...but you gotta pay the bills unfortunately.


  • Registered Users Posts: 53 ✭✭engineerfear1


    I would have thought I had a technical mind and was a competent engineer, but a lot of doubt has creeped in over the years. If something isn't explicitly written in a code somewhere, or I haven't seen it in a design guide or example somewhere, I question it to the nth degree and the only way to satisfy my uncertainty is to ask a more experienced engineer. It's not a nice feeling.

    Someone mentioned Springboard. What exactly is that and is it something I could jump into straight away?

    I know it sounds crazy but I'd almost jump into any other job that will take me at the moment. Is there any other in demand career that only requires on the job training, at least in the short term until I figure out what I want to upskill?

    I feel like I need to get out as soon as possible before the stress kills me!


  • Registered Users Posts: 34 ingeneer


    Springboard is a government initiative with subsidised courses for people in employment and out of employment. The major point of the scheme is to change careers into areas that have a skill shortage. Information at https://springboardcourses.ie/. The deadlines for some of the courses are already passed, so you would need to apply quickly for this year.

    If the work is having that much of detrimental effect (especially over a long period of time) I would 100% leave - your mental health is worth more than a career.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,016 ✭✭✭onrail


    ingeneer wrote: »
    Springboard is a government initiative with subsidised courses for people in employment and out of employment. The major point of the scheme is to change careers into areas that have a skill shortage. Information at https://springboardcourses.ie/. The deadlines for some of the courses are already passed, so you would need to apply quickly for this year.

    Sorry to jump in here - but how effective are Springboard courses in leading to alternative careers, subject to good grades etc?

    Much like the OP, I'm looking for any way out of the same industry, but with a young family, I'd need to be relatively sure that the course isn't a complete waste of time.


  • Registered Users Posts: 34 ingeneer


    onrail wrote: »
    Sorry to jump in here - but how effective are Springboard courses in leading to alternative careers, subject to good grades etc?

    Much like the OP, I'm looking for any way out of the same industry, but with a young family, I'd need to be relatively sure that the course isn't a complete waste of time.

    It depends a lot on the course content, the IT or University, and a bit of luck also. I know of a few people who have done an IT course in Maynooth for example and walked into jobs afterwards and are already on a similar salary to myself after half the years experience. And when you look on jobs websites for IT work, there are 10 times the amount of jobs up there. The work conditions HAVE to be better than construction. I'm sure there are stories of people struggling to get work after springboard also. Maybe if a course looks good, the course director could let you know what % of people from last years course are in employment (although with COVID those figures might be skewed this year).

    If there is a downturn in construction I think staying in it is a risk in itself. We're the first to go. That's going to be my alert to move industry - as soon as they start cutting wages (which I think is already happening in some places). I've been telling myself to get out for years now though so that says a lot :o. Once you're chartered it should be easy enough to hop back in too if you need to - I think younger people are pouring out of the industry - cause why would they bother with it all!

    With a young family it's obviously a bit more complicated. I'd look at trying a course part time over two years to keep some money coming in. Maybe a partners wage can keep things going also. Would definitely be a tougher ask. It's one year of pain though - it's doable with savings.


  • Registered Users Posts: 53 ✭✭engineerfear1


    I was considering an MBA for a long time but never pull the trigger due to the cost and time commitment. Maybe now is the perfect opportunity.

    Does anyone know of any success stories of engineers getting an MBA and switching careers?


  • Registered Users Posts: 53 ✭✭engineerfear1


    Another thought crept into my head. What are your opinions on site based work? There's much less stress I'd imagine, but not sure if I'd be keen on being outside 24/7.

    Is there any role besides a site engineer that I could step into? Maybe a junior construction manager, if that's a thing? I'm scuppered not having any construction management experience which is the only problem.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,016 ✭✭✭onrail


    Another thought crept into my head. What are your opinions on site based work? There's much less stress I'd imagine, but not sure if I'd be keen on being outside 24/7.

    Is there any role besides a site engineer that I could step into? Maybe a junior construction manager, if that's a thing? I'm scuppered not having any construction management experience which is the only problem.

    If you're not one for stress, stay 1,000,000 miles away from contracting. Resident Engineer might be OK, but stress varies greatly from job to job.

    MBA-wise, I know of three consulting engineers who did it. Two are back in engineering (not sure if this was by choice or not) and one is in a corporate role.

    I've always seen an MBA as a huge risk. Given the cost involved, you'd want to be stepping into a €90-100k job to justify it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,201 ✭✭✭✭mickdw


    Another thought crept into my head. What are your opinions on site based work? There's much less stress I'd imagine, but not sure if I'd be keen on being outside 24/7.

    Is there any role besides a site engineer that I could step into? Maybe a junior construction manager, if that's a thing? I'm scuppered not having any construction management experience which is the only problem.

    You are having a laugh. Much less stress - you have tighter deadlines, longer hours, harsh conditions and abusive employers / bosses.
    You still then have further responsibilities that can be stressful such as site safety not to mention the actual making sure everything is i the right place.


  • Registered Users Posts: 53 ✭✭engineerfear1


    onrail wrote: »
    If you're not one for stress, stay 1,000,000 miles away from contracting. Resident Engineer might be OK, but stress varies greatly from job to job.

    MBA-wise, I know of three consulting engineers who did it. Two are back in engineering (not sure if this was by choice or not) and one is in a corporate role.

    I've always seen an MBA as a huge risk. Given the cost involved, you'd want to be stepping into a €90-100k job to justify it.
    mickdw wrote: »
    You are having a laugh. Much less stress - you have tighter deadlines, longer hours, harsh conditions and abusive employers / bosses.
    You still then have further responsibilities that can be stressful such as site safety not to mention the actual making sure everything is i the right place.

    That's probably true. After posting it I thought about it more and can imagine working long hours, tight programmes and dealing with a lot of awkward people. It's effectively what I'm doing at the moment.

    I liked the idea of project management in some sense, but then again I do like playing around with numbers. In fact, I like nothing better than creating a spreadsheet for some menial task just to simplify it. I don't know what career that would fit into though. Data analytics maybe?

    I've heard of some engineers converting to accountancy, but after 10 years of engineering I feel like I'd be a bit late to the party. Plus there's a huge drop off in salary, but maybe it pays off in the long run?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,039 ✭✭✭lg123


    onrail wrote: »
    I've always seen an MBA as a huge risk. Given the cost involved, you'd want to be stepping into a €90-100k job to justify it.

    Not so much. What I learnt about investing paid for my MBA in less than three years, thats totally ignoring any salary increases. An MBA is a significant time investment but I think they defo pay off. The only person from my cohort who wasted their time with the MBA was a surgeon who only ever had the ppl skills to be a surgeon. He's still a surgeon making twice as much as I do, still a dick too.

    OP, I worked for a consultancy for a couple of years after I graduated, nice concept but never liked the busisness model. Timesheets were always something I dredded, always worried that too many hours had been allocated to a problem.
    Depending on your desire to progress, a govt job might be a good option. But there are better sides of engineering out there, just start your search.


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,890 Mod ✭✭✭✭shesty


    Tbh OP, you sound like you are panicking a bit.
    I am a civil engineer, started out on site.I was there 5 years and I will say one thing to you -if you are struggling with stress, do not touch site work.I cannot describe the stress of constantly chasing and haggling and fighting with contractors, second-guessing every conversation, watching money and pushing construction programmes.It literally drains you, and you work long, hard hours.I would not recommend it as an option to just get out of where you are.

    I was about 5 years out of college in 2010 when the recession hit, so my observations are based on what has happened since then to me and those I know.An MBA is quite a worthwhile investment.If you are into data etc, the Smurfit school do a part-time data analytics masters that a few of my aquaintances have done, and it has got them into good jobs in the area of data analytics.Some, myself included, have headed into state and semi-state jobs.They will never light the world on fire but there is minimal stress, increasing payscales and opportunities to branch sideways or push upwards.

    The trade-off will most likely be a drop in earnings for a period of time.For us, we had to do it because there were no other options.I would say it is never too late, but equally, it does depend on your life circumstances - can you afford to put time and money into a 2 year course, and then potentially take a big drop in earnings for a few years while you start to build back up experience in a new career??It is absolutely do-able though,and if a job is affecting your health, then it isn't worth it.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 34 ingeneer


    Seeing some interesting "alternatives" for civil/structural engineers recently, including the below. Still related to construction, but do not appear to have the same design pressures. I've no affiliation with either companies.

    https://ie.indeed.com/viewjob?cmp=HomeBond&t=Civil+Structural+Engineer&jk=fba2a7a3f80deaee&q=Structural+Engineer&vjs=3

    https://ie.indeed.com/viewjob?jk=82ced0b426883c98&tk=1f2p713tostvf800&from=serp&vjs=3


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