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Biochar and natural farming

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Comments

  • #92
    _Brian
    Registered Users Posts: 18,468 ✭✭✭✭_Brian


    Say my name wrote: »
    I haven't got all the answers Patsy so I don't know what you're expecting of me.
    I started this thread to hopefully get answers myself.

    How much does it cost to cut a tree down, dig a pit, make charcoal? I couldn't tell ya.
    In the developing countries they use their ag waste, straw, etc.

    Ok so first off that method releases huge volumes of co2, other greenhouse gasses and whatever number of toxins. It’s only chance of being carbon neutral is of tue exhaust gasses are scrubbed clean and the excess heat used to generate electricity which is sold to replace co2 emitting generation.


  • #93
    ganmo
    Registered Users Posts: 7,748 ✭✭✭ganmo


    _Brian wrote: »
    Ok so first off that method releases huge volumes of co2, other greenhouse gasses and whatever number of toxins. It’s only chance of being carbon neutral is of tue exhaust gasses are scrubbed clean and the excess heat used to generate electricity which is sold to replace co2 emitting generation.

    there are wood gassificcation heating systems but they burn the whole thing so theres nothing left but the ash


  • #94
    _Brian
    Registered Users Posts: 18,468 ✭✭✭✭_Brian


    ganmo wrote: »
    there are wood gassificcation heating systems but they burn the whole thing so theres nothing left but the ash

    Yes, but saying it’s as simple as cutting a tree and digging a pit in the ground isn’t correct.


  • #95
    Say my name
    Registered Users Posts: 11,025 ✭✭✭✭Say my name


    _Brian wrote: »
    Yes, but saying it’s as simple as cutting a tree and digging a pit in the ground isn’t correct.

    It is correct.

    Get your eastern European to do everything else.


  • #96
    Say my name
    Registered Users Posts: 11,025 ✭✭✭✭Say my name


    patsy_mccabe wrote: »
    Don't feel like we're ganging up on you Say My Name. We're not. We're just trying to tease things out with out. ;)

    Oh don't worry, I'm having a right laugh.
    It's the most action here since never..

    There's still some confusion here about chopping down the world's forests to make Biochar. As I said previously you can make it from any carbon source. It doesn't mean that it will make a fertilizer but the point stands. And plants grow after being cut or you can sow another one.

    There's also confusion about this being a carbon positive action like burning fossil fuels.
    Well here's charcoal (biochar).

    20181017-114109.jpg

    This was previously carbon dioxide floating on the breeze. It was probably produced by burning fossil fuels or respiration by a living organism.
    This is now here back in my hand again in an 80% carbon form to do as I wish.
    I can burn it and release turn it back into carbon dioxide or I can mix it with cow manure and organisms and turn it into a long lasting fertilizer while safely keeping it out of the atmosphere and reducing the co2 in the air above our heads.
    It's a carbon negative technology.

    If you want to see biochar at work, visit Tintern Abbey walled gardens. The head gardener uses charcoal from her wood stove mixed with poultry manure pellets on the roses.


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  • #97
    yosemitesam1
    Registered Users Posts: 2,927 ✭✭✭yosemitesam1


    Say my name wrote: »
    Oh don't worry, I'm having a right laugh.
    It's the most action here since never..

    There's still some confusion here about chopping down the world's forests to make Biochar. As I said previously you can make it from any carbon source. It doesn't mean that it will make a fertilizer but the point stands. And plants grow after being cut or you can sow another one.

    There's also confusion about this being a carbon positive action like burning fossil fuels.
    Well here's charcoal (biochar).

    20181017-114109.jpg

    This was previously carbon dioxide floating on the breeze. It was probably produced by burning fossil fuels or respiration by a living organism.
    This is now here back in my hand again in an 80% carbon form to do as I wish.
    I can burn it and release turn it back into carbon dioxide or I can mix it with cow manure and organisms and turn it into a long lasting fertilizer while safely keeping it out of the atmosphere and reducing the co2 in the air above our heads.
    It's a carbon negative technology.

    If you want to see biochar at work, visit Tintern Abbey walled gardens. The head gardener uses charcoal from her wood stove mixed with poultry manure pellets on the roses.
    Really the only options are straw and timber though. If all the 1 million tonne of straw produced here was put into biochar also, it still wouldn't be able scale up to the volume needed and what about the poor worms then...


  • #98
    Say my name
    Registered Users Posts: 11,025 ✭✭✭✭Say my name


    yosemitesam1 wrote: »
    Really the only options are straw and timber though. If all the 1 million tonne of straw produced here was put into biochar also, it still wouldn't be able scale up to the volume needed and what about the poor worms then...

    Ah who cares about the volume.
    We're not communists and shur everyone does their own thing. If the heat produced can be used on farm is the bonus.

    Imagine a burner producing biochar on farm. That heat is used for the house and the char then used for animal bedding.
    A layer of straw, a layer of char, etc. Throw in a bit of basalt dust as well.
    The worms won't know what's hit them then.

    Just wait till the cash rolls in from these carbon taxes that the government will be implementing.
    Everyone will want to be a farmer then.


  • #99
    timfromtang
    Registered Users Posts: 557 ✭✭✭timfromtang


    patsy_mccabe wrote: »
    But you still haven't answered the most basic question of all - How Much does it cost?

    How much to treat one acre of land?
    How many m3 of timber would that require, per acre?

    It's a bit like spreading slurry. Slurry works as a fertiliser, but to transport it long distances doesn't make it feasible.

    Nobody is disputing that Biochar works. It's whether it is feasible or not?






    I hope I can help a bit with the yield question.
    If you convert 1 kg of biomass to char in an efficient retort system you will yield appx 250g of char.
    in volume terms the char will be appx 50% of the original volume, but only 25% of the weight.


    so
    1 m³ of dry dense hardwood perhaps 600 kg will yield approximately 1/2m³ char weighing 150kg.


    Biochar can be made from many feedstocks


    from woody waste on farm would seem ideal.


    tim

    www.youtube.com/c/timfromtang

    Fuinseog abú



  • #100
    patsy_mccabe
    Registered Users Posts: 10,674 ✭✭✭✭patsy_mccabe


    How much land would 150kg cover?

    'The Bishops blessed the Blueshirts in Galway, As they sailed beneath the Swastika to Spain'



  • #101
    patsy_mccabe
    Registered Users Posts: 10,674 ✭✭✭✭patsy_mccabe


    Well?

    giphy.gif

    'The Bishops blessed the Blueshirts in Galway, As they sailed beneath the Swastika to Spain'



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  • #102
    charolais0153
    Registered Users Posts: 6,225 ✭✭✭charolais0153


    patsy_mccabe wrote: »
    Well?

    giphy.gif

    At 20t to the acre. 30m2


  • #103
    timfromtang
    Registered Users Posts: 557 ✭✭✭timfromtang


    patsy_mccabe wrote: »
    How much land would 150kg cover?




    that would have a volume of about 1/2 m³ so would cover 50 m² at 1 cm thick, 500 m² at 1mm thick, depends on your application rate.
    I'd suggest that your application rate would depend on your objective in adding the char to your soil in the first place.


    char at 1mm thick evenly distributed over your soil equates to approximately 3 metric tons per hectare.



    charcoal is available on international markets from about €1/kg or €1000tonne.


    tim

    www.youtube.com/c/timfromtang

    Fuinseog abú



  • #104
    patsy_mccabe
    Registered Users Posts: 10,674 ✭✭✭✭patsy_mccabe


    So €3,000 /hectare to apply 1mm? :rolleyes:

    'The Bishops blessed the Blueshirts in Galway, As they sailed beneath the Swastika to Spain'



  • #105
    Say my name
    Registered Users Posts: 11,025 ✭✭✭✭Say my name


    Figures aren't my thing.
    (It's actually a wonder I'm still farming).

    But in theory it would only need to be done the once.
    I actually wonder how much it cost to do Ascot racecourse now? Ha!

    I can see why it might be more feasible if the farmer produces it themselves.

    (There's actually a mobile sevice making Biochar from the farmers own biomass in Australia ). They seem to be making a living from it with no shortage of customers.

    I suppose if it works then future fertilizer input savings would have to be taken into account too.

    Financial help from the carbon markets will have to come into play though before anyone starts to spend money on this.


  • #106
    Say my name
    Registered Users Posts: 11,025 ✭✭✭✭Say my name


    Say my name wrote: »
    Figures aren't my thing.
    (It's actually a wonder I'm still farming).

    But in theory it would only need to be done the once.
    I actually wonder how much it cost to do Ascot racecourse now? Ha!

    I can see why it might be more feasible if the farmer produces it themselves.

    (There's actually a mobile sevice making Biochar from the farmers own biomass in Australia ). They seem to be making a living from it with no shortage of customers.

    I suppose if it works then future fertilizer input savings would have to be taken into account too.

    Financial help from the carbon markets will have to come into play though before anyone starts to spend money on this.

    AHA!

    I knew there had to be a reason it's taken off in Oz.
    The farmers get paid since 2012.

    https://www.craigsams.com/bio-char/


  • #107
    Say my name
    Registered Users Posts: 11,025 ✭✭✭✭Say my name


    "0.5% biochar added to the national herd's diet would reduce the country's emissions by 5%"
    - Speaker at today's Biochar conference.


  • #108
    ganmo
    Registered Users Posts: 7,748 ✭✭✭ganmo


    Say my name wrote: »
    "0.5% biochar added to the national herd's diet would reduce the country's emissions by 5%"
    - Speaker at today's Biochar conference.

    Is there any feed grade biochar available? I’ve never heard of any


  • #109
    Say my name
    Registered Users Posts: 11,025 ✭✭✭✭Say my name


    Annual value of Irish sectors in which biochar can play a role.

    Fertilizer - €565 million.
    Animal feed - €400 million.
    Horticulture - €433 million.
    Landscaping - €826 million.
    Soil remediation - €50 million.


  • #110
    ganmo
    Registered Users Posts: 7,748 ✭✭✭ganmo


    ganmo wrote: »
    Is there any feed grade biochar available? I’ve never heard of any

    I can’t see any mention of it on the feed materials registrar, until it’s register no miller will put it in a feed


  • #111
    Say my name
    Registered Users Posts: 11,025 ✭✭✭✭Say my name


    ganmo wrote: »
    Is there any feed grade biochar available? I’ve never heard of any

    Already in use in Blue chip horse feed.

    As a separate addition for anyone to include themselves it looks like you'll have to make your own for the time being.

    Ibers in Aberystwyth is doing trials with straw biochar on dairy cows.

    The best option for anyone atm if interested is make your own in a farming group and pellet it with a tractor pto pellet maker and add that way.

    Everyone is dragging their heels though to see if the Eu and government will pony up before farmers are encouraged to do so though.
    So some mindless trials continue.


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  • #112
    Say my name
    Registered Users Posts: 11,025 ✭✭✭✭Say my name


    ganmo wrote: »
    I can’t see any mention of it on the feed materials registrar, until it’s register no miller will put it in a feed

    It's called something else though for feed atm so that's how that's got around.
    (The name escapes me).


  • #113
    blue5000
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,615 Mod ✭✭✭✭blue5000


    Say my name wrote: »
    It's called something else though for feed atm so that's how that's got around.
    (The name escapes me).

    Ash!

    If the seat's wet, sit on yer hat, a cool head is better than a wet ar5e.



  • #114
    Say my name
    Registered Users Posts: 11,025 ✭✭✭✭Say my name


    The biggest players there today were the pharmaceutical industries on use of activated carbon.
    Then using it in waste water treatment plants and municipal green waste making electricity from that through biogas and fertilizer from the liquid and fuel /biochar for householders, replacing turf and coal and oil.
    Also the Irish love of turf will have to be consigned to history just like the Estonians adapted.

    (I think I was the only farmer there. Everyone else had lab technician or biomass plants or sewage service or whatnot on their name tag.
    On my nametag was dairy farmer and forestry. :pac: )
    Nice free dinner though.


  • #115
    Say my name
    Registered Users Posts: 11,025 ✭✭✭✭Say my name


    blue5000 wrote: »
    Ash!

    It could be.
    I don't think it is though.


  • #116
    amacca
    Registered Users Posts: 6,741 ✭✭✭amacca


    Say my name wrote: »
    The biggest players there today were the pharmaceutical industries on use of activated carbon.
    Then using it in waste water treatment plants and municipal green waste making electricity from that through biogas and fertilizer from the liquid and fuel /biochar for householders, replacing turf and coal and oil.
    Also the Irish love of turf will have to be consigned to history just like the Estonians adapted.

    The activated carbon guy I spoke to was saying he sees biochar as having a role in land remediation. Thats its niche in his opinion.


  • #117
    ganmo
    Registered Users Posts: 7,748 ✭✭✭ganmo


    http://www.feedmaterialsregister.eu
    Horse feed can get away with more than beef/sheep rations.


  • #118
    Say my name
    Registered Users Posts: 11,025 ✭✭✭✭Say my name


    amacca wrote: »
    The activated carbon guy I spoke to was saying he sees biochar as having a role in land remediation. Thats its niche in his opinion.

    Ah jeez I should have looked out for ya. :D

    You can simply activate carbon by putting water into a hot kontiki kiln of charcoal. The steam breaks open the pores on the charcoal.
    It's the same principle as those fancy kilns from the big companies.

    I was sitting beside a lad at dinner who bought the Glanbia/Yoplait stainless steel plant at Inch, Wexford for use in making Biochar kilns.


  • #119
    Say my name
    Registered Users Posts: 11,025 ✭✭✭✭Say my name


    ganmo wrote: »
    http://www.feedmaterialsregister.eu
    Horse feed can get away with more than beef/sheep rations.

    I'll take your word for it. Ganmo.


  • #120
    YFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 9,717 ✭✭✭YFlyer


    Say my name wrote: »
    "0.5% biochar added to the national herd's diet would reduce the country's emissions by 5%"
    - Speaker at today's Biochar conference.

    Hi there

    Where was this conference?

    Thanks


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  • #121
    YFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 9,717 ✭✭✭YFlyer


    Say my name wrote: »
    It's called something else though for feed atm so that's how that's got around.
    (The name escapes me).

    Activated carbon?


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