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Half-baked Republican Presidential Fruitcakes (and fellow confections)

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Comments

  • #3002
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,395 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    FA Hayek wrote: »
    As for news outlets, well if you can prove that news outlets gave Trump questions for a debate before the debate ala Clinton and CNN then maybe you are onto something but alas I think you are mistaken. :)
    Clinton got the questions for a debate?

    http://www.snopes.com/clinton-received-debate-questions-week-before-debate/

    You really might prefer the conspiracy forum.


  • #3003
    FA Hayek
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,084 ✭✭✭FA Hayek


    robindch wrote: »
    Clinton got the questions for a debate?

    http://www.snopes.com/clinton-received-debate-questions-week-before-debate/

    You really might prefer the conspiracy forum.

    No, I think you will find that this actually occurred.

    http://www.bloomberg.com/politics/articles/2016-10-31/dnc-s-brazile-said-to-have-leaked-debate-question-to-clinton

    http://www.salon.com/2016/11/10/donna-brazile-im-only-sorry-i-got-caught-cheating-with-debate-questions/
    Donna Brazile, the interim chair of the Democratic National Committee, is not only refusing to apologize for giving debate questions to candidate Hillary Clinton. She’s also saying she would do it again if given the opportunity.

    “My conscience — as an activist, a strategist — is very clear,” she said in an interview with talk-radio host Joe Madison that aired on Monday.

    Brazile argued she was simply doing her job as a strategist to know what questions the debate moderators might pose: “You’re doggone right I’m gonna talk to everybody. Joe, I will never go out on TV or go on radio without the facts. I will ask. I will submit things. I will circulate things. And guess what? I also enjoy the exchange that I have with my colleagues.”

    From Snopes.
    This fake news story about the first presidential debate was a complete fabrication and is unrelated to later claims that Donna Brazile might have provided the Clinton campaign previews of questions to be asked at much earlier Democratic primary (i.e., non-presidential) events


  • #3004
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,789 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    FA Hayek wrote: »
    So, with no evidence that Putin is the puppet Master of Trump I take you withdraw the innuendo implied.
    You seem to be unable to distinguish "no evidence" from "circumstantial evidence that I've hand-waved away without bothering to address it".

    Do I think Trump is a Putin puppet? Maybe. There's certainly reason to believe he might be. It's also possible that he's just a lickspittle who craves the approval of a strongman in whose image he'd like to remake the American presidency, and that he'll fall out with Putin over some petty personal squabble and bring the world to the brink of a shooting war over it.


  • #3005
    FA Hayek
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,084 ✭✭✭FA Hayek


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    You seem to be unable to distinguish "no evidence" from "circumstantial evidence that I've hand-waved away without bothering to address it".

    Do I think Trump is a Putin puppet? Maybe. There's certainly reason to believe he might be. It's also possible that he's just a lickspittle who craves the approval of a strongman in whose image he'd like to remake the American presidency, and that he'll fall out with Putin over some petty personal squabble and bring the world to the brink of a shooting war over it.

    Much to your delight it would seem. The consensus seemed to be that if Clinton got elected Russian relations would have been much more cold, as she was determined to bring about a no fly zone in Syria. Which would have escalated that situation.

    With Trump, apart from killing ISIS and terrorists, he appears at least not too bothered about Syria, Assad and all that. His is actually the less aggressive one and the more isolationist one.

    People predicting the end of the world sound just as foolish as those who thought Obama taking office would be the end of the world.


  • #3006
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    emmet02 wrote: »
    What about Obama's conduct and statements about the potentially next POTUS pre-election result? Which is something that you're slating Kenny for?
    Obama is a member of the democrat political party in the USA, Enda Kenny is not.
    In the last 24 hours Obama has transcended that perfectly legitimate party loyalty, and acted like a POTUS in a very professional way.

    In the last 24 hours, Enda has has transcended his own personal prejudices and started acting like the Taoiseach of Ireland, in a squirmy sort of way.


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  • #3007
    emmet02
    Registered Users Posts: 24,815 ✭✭✭✭emmet02


    recedite wrote: »
    Obama is a member of the democrat political party in the USA, Enda Kenny is not.
    In the last 24 hours Obama has transcended that perfectly legitimate party loyalty, and acted like a POTUS in a very professional way.

    In the last 24 hours, Enda has has transcended his own personal prejudices and started acting like the Taoiseach of Ireland, in a squirmy sort of way.

    Hilarious double standards.

    Both Obama and Kenny did the same thing!


  • #3008
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,789 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    FA Hayek wrote: »
    Much to your delight it would seem.
    I'm curious: what is there in anything I've written to suggest I'd be happy if two egomaniacal demagogues brought the world to the brink of destruction over their own personal butthurt?

    Actually, scratch that. I'm not curious at all. You've been so busy reading between the lines of what I've written that you appear not to have bothered reading the posts themselves.


  • #3009
    FA Hayek
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,084 ✭✭✭FA Hayek


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    I'm curious: what is there in anything I've written to suggest I'd be happy if two egomaniacal demagogues brought the world to the brink of destruction over their own personal butthurt?

    Actually, scratch that. I'm not curious at all. You've been so busy reading between the lines of what I've written that you appear not to have bothered reading the posts themselves.

    Chest beating hysterical cries of 'I told you so' to prove Trump is the worst and meanest guy ever ever ever? This is the narrative right?

    People proclaiming the end of the world are like those religious loonies who gather and wait, and wait, and wait.... until the feat never happens. God much have been busy or something.

    Don't worry in 4 or 8 years we will have some crowd on the right claiming x person is the anti christ and we will have the same hysterical reaction from those on the left after 4 or 8 years more when they get removed from office. Its like the cycle of life at this stage.


  • #3010
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,789 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    You've been so busy reading between the lines of what I've written that you appear not to have bothered reading the posts themselves.
    FA Hayek wrote: »
    People proclaiming the end of the world are like those religious loonies who gather and wait, and wait, and wait.... until the feat never happens. God much have been busy or something.

    .


  • #3011
    Christy42
    Registered Users Posts: 7,863 ✭✭✭Christy42


    recedite wrote: »
    Well it seems that Enda phoned the Donald last night, did the required grovelling, and made sure his rightful invitation to the White House on 17th March was still "good to go".
    I'm just saying it was imprudent and unprofessional for the PM of this country to libel the (potentially) next POTUS.
    Its OK for you to do it, you're just a random anonymous internet poster.
    Look to Obama's conduct in the last 24hours for a model of professionalism.

    At no point did Enda libel Donald Trump. Trump is of course free to sue if he feels he could win...

    At no point did Enda Kenny apologise for his previous statements that I have seen nor does he seem to have any intention of doing so. I presume his phone call was about Irish/American relations. Enda has to deal with people as bad and worse than Trump. It is disappointing to see a country go backwards in this regard but we have to deal with it and remember that we also talk to countries like China and Russia.


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  • #3012
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Christy42 wrote: »
    At no point did Enda Kenny apologise..... that I have seen....
    ;)


  • #3013
    Christy42
    Registered Users Posts: 7,863 ✭✭✭Christy42


    recedite wrote: »
    ;)

    He ducks, dives and dodges but at no point does he say his original remarks where untrue. Merely that we will work with him.


  • #3014
    ShooterSF
    Registered Users Posts: 8,824 ✭✭✭ShooterSF


    recedite wrote: »
    Well it seems that Enda phoned the Donald last night, did the required grovelling, and made sure his rightful invitation to the White House on 17th March was still "good to go".
    I'm just saying it was imprudent and unprofessional for the PM of this country to libel the (potentially) next POTUS.
    Its OK for you to do it, you're just a random anonymous internet poster.
    Look to Obama's conduct in the last 24hours for a model of professionalism.

    The PM of this country should speak out against potential and actual leaders of other countries making racist and sexist remarks. We are not a territory of the United States. We are not an ally of the United States. Just like he should be condemning Duterte and Putin for human right violations, he should be speaking out against Trump's comments.


  • #3015
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Christy42 wrote: »
    He ducks, dives and dodges but at no point does he say his original remarks where untrue. Merely that we will work with him.
    tbh we don't know what he said in that phone call. I'd imagine that Enda was losing sleep with the thought that Trump might harbour a grudge against him, which would be very detrimental to Enda's future career, so thought he should speak personally with Trump to clear the air.
    Trump being such a thick skinned individual probably laughed it off and invited him over for a Paddy's Day whiskey.


  • #3016
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,395 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    FA Hayek wrote: »
    No, I think you will find that this actually occurred.
    When making a point, it's usually best to distinguish it from popular, long-debunked right-wing conspiracy theories.


  • #3017
    Christy42
    Registered Users Posts: 7,863 ✭✭✭Christy42


    recedite wrote: »
    tbh we don't know what he said in that phone call. I'd imagine that Enda was losing sleep with the thought that Trump might harbour a grudge against him, which would be very detrimental to Enda's future career, so thought he should speak personally with Trump to clear the air.
    Trump being such a thick skinned individual probably laughed it off and invited him over for a Paddy's Day whiskey.

    I would imagine Trump's interactions with Putin will involve Putin telling Trump what to do. However I have no evidence for that and you have no evidence of that.

    For instance your assertion that Trump is thick skinned is laughable. The man hasn't gotten over someone saying he has small hands and threatens to sue at the drop of a hat (doesn't always follow through though).

    Of course if you imagine everyone in the world is bowing to him in private I am sure he looks like a great leader.


  • #3018
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,395 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    You've been so busy reading between the lines of what I've written that you appear not to have bothered reading the posts themselves.
    This has been happening more and more in a number of groups recently - radfems and alt-rights spring to mind, the alt-right having well-documented connections to DT's campaign.

    For these, the aim of discussion is not to reach a conclusion, but of playing out whatever rhetorical tricks are necessary to prevent discussion from happening in the first place, frequently by creating a diversionary fog of anger via unjustified inferences:

    Person: DT is an idiot.
    Unhappy person: I support DT and you're calling me an idiot?
    Person: No, I said DT is an idiot.
    Unhappy person: And how can I support DT without me being an idiot too?
    Person: I'm talking about DT! He's an idiot!
    Unhappy person: That's an insult to every DT supporter. You people in <another-group> think you're so superior. You're closed minded and you disgust me.
    Person: Goodbye.
    Unhappy person: Typical cut'n'runner.


  • #3019
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,704 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    The election exit polls make some interesting reading. I've heard a lot of commentary from the right wing that Trump's success was to some part down to the working class voters who are struggling on dwindling wages and feeling let down by the left. Interesting that more of those on lower wages voted for Clinton and the higher earners voted trump.

    401244.JPG

    And of course this being the atheism forum, no surprises who the God botherers voted for ;)

    401245.JPG


  • #3020
    ShooterSF
    Registered Users Posts: 8,824 ✭✭✭ShooterSF


    smacl wrote: »
    The election exit polls make some interesting reading. I've heard a lot of commentary from the right wing that Trump's success was to some part down to the working class voters who are struggling on dwindling wages and feeling let down by the left. Interesting that more of those on lower wages voted for Clinton and the higher earners voted trump.

    Everything I've seen suggests more a rural vs urban vote rather than rich vs poor. It makes sense for the rich to vote for him as he's promised to cut their taxes.


  • #3021
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    The canard of the stereotypical Trump supporter being an "uneducated, white, working class, racist, angry male" was thrown around more by the Democrat side, to be fair. As with any caricature, there may be a grain of truth in it.

    The income figures don't really show a huge disparity. The urban V rural divide is the more statistically significant figure at around 60:40
    This seems to compare with the London V The rest of England result in the Brexit vote. It would be difficult to pin down an exact meaning for this differential. You could allege that city slickers were smarter and better educated than country bumpkins. Or you could allege that as immigrants and gang warfare take over the city streets, respectable white folks move out to the country. (I wouldn't argue either point myself, for fear of being attacked by pitchfork wielding fascists.)

    The LGBT voting pattern is interesting. While the LGB were predictably Hillary supporters, the transgender vote was marginally for Trump.


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  • #3022
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,789 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    recedite wrote: »
    Or you could allege that as immigrants and gang warfare take over the city streets, respectable white folks move out to the country.
    I guess if immigrants and gang warfare ever do take over the city streets, we'll see what happens then.

    In the meantime, two nice juxtapositions in there: "immigrants and gang warfare", contrasted with "respectable white folks". You should go into the dog whistle business.


  • #3023
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,395 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    robindch wrote: »
    This has been happening more and more in a number of groups recently - radfems and alt-rights spring to mind, the alt-right having well-documented connections to DT's campaign.

    [....] Unhappy person: That's an insult to every DT supporter. You people in <another-group> think you're so superior.
    Just occurred to me that alt-rights refer to "elites" (which must be unseated) while radfems refer to "privileges" (which must be checked)

    To an alt-righter, being a member of a perceived elite, or to a radfem, holding a perceived privilege - both are attributes determined by one speaker which, in their view, allows them to reject another speaker.

    Any other groups out there who try to shut down debate by careful use of vocabulary and power politics?


  • #3024
    FA Hayek
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,084 ✭✭✭FA Hayek


    robindch wrote: »
    When making a point, it's usually best to distinguish it from popular, long-debunked right-wing conspiracy theories.

    When disputing a point, its best to look at all the actual facts then rush off and try to cobble together some weak attempt at a rebuttal. As you can see, my point stands and is clearly not a 'conspiracy' :)


  • #3025
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    robindch wrote: »
    Any other groups out there who try to shut down debate by careful use of vocabulary and power politics?
    How about these people?
    Its probably best just to contain and ignore them; it won't be long before they tire themselves out and go home to their mammies.

    After all, it's virtually impossible to defend against emotions, particularly hate, fear and rage, with logic, reason and experience.


  • #3026
    FA Hayek
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,084 ✭✭✭FA Hayek


    Christy42 wrote: »
    I would imagine Trump's interactions with Putin will involve Putin telling Trump what to do. However I have no evidence for that and you have no evidence of that.


    When Obama took office, we had accusation that he was a secret Muslim and that we would take orders from Iman's in the Middle East.

    No proof of that of course and oh how we laughed. Now the shoe is on the other foot and now people are throwing out the innuendo that Trump is a puppet of Putin. No proof of that either so yes, it should be mocked and laughed at.

    Come one guys, you are letting yourselves down with this rubbish!


  • #3027
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    You should go into the dog whistle business.
    Hey, stop poking me with that pitchfork :mad:


  • #3028
    Christy42
    Registered Users Posts: 7,863 ✭✭✭Christy42


    FA Hayek wrote: »
    When Obama took office, we had accusation that he was a secret Muslim and that we would take orders from Iman's in the Middle East.

    No proof of that of course and oh how we laughed. Now the shoe is on the other foot and now people are throwing out the innuendo that Trump is a puppet of Putin. No proof of that either so yes, it should be mocked and laughed at.

    Come one guys, you are letting yourselves down with this rubbish!

    That was my point. I very very specifically said I can say little about it and indeed I should not take my own suspicions seriously without evidence. I was pointing out the silliness of this argument to another poster who was imagining what was going on in Donald's phone calls with Enda.


  • #3029
    mikhail
    Registered Users Posts: 3,863 ✭✭✭mikhail


    robindch wrote: »
    Any other groups out there who try to shut down debate by careful use of vocabulary and power politics?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRIr9MNmCwU
    Just look at the abortion debate. Pro-choice (so the other guys are against choice, and therefore evil) vs Pro-life (so the other guys are against life, and therefore evil). I increasingly find that whatever my positon on political subjects, the most vocal people on both sides are loathsome.


  • #3030
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,395 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    recedite wrote: »
    After all, it's virtually impossible to defend against emotions, particularly hate, fear and rage, with logic, reason and experience.
    We agree on something :)
    recedite wrote: »
    it won't be long before they tire themselves out and go home to their mammies.
    An unusual on this morning in my kid's class - one child aged ten, irish born of irish parents, announced with a big grin that the class should build a wall to keep the immigrants out. That's in a class where there's maybe 50% of his classmates are either non-natives, or one or both parents non-native including some with dark skin and some from South America. The kid was quickly put in his place, but it was an uncomfortable moment which we're expecting to see return.

    Are you concerned that DT's incendiary rhetoric is showing up here in Ireland in primary school classrooms or would you prefer to demean the concerns?


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  • #3031
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    robindch wrote: »
    ..one child aged ten, irish born of irish parents, announced with a big grin that the class should build a wall to keep the immigrants out..
    I'd imagine the kid was regurgitating a comment that the parents made at home while watching TV or something.
    Would I blame Trump because 50% of the kids in an Irish classroom are from a foreign background? No.
    Would I expect some of the native Irish parents to make comments like that? Yes. If you change the demographic that drastically within a generation you are going to get tensions.

    I have long been critical of the school patronage system which is divisive. I'm also critical of an immigration system that does not include vetting of immigrants for their compatibility with our society and their individual merits, skills, honesty, clean record etc. which would make their integration and acceptance into the local culture more successful.
    An interesting podcast here on the subject, saying asylum seekers are usually one of 4 types; the "adapters" (like herself) the "menace" (young male criminals/rapists) the "Islamic fundamentalists" and the "coasters" (freeloaders). And only the first category should be allowed to immigrate into the EU. Ayaan Hirsi Ali describes this at 40mins into a Sam Harris interview.


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