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Fighter jets for the Air Corps?

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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,301 ✭✭✭Snickers Man


    Is there a name for this US/UK/Russian military alliance that exists only in your mind?

    Not yet.

    But if you read your history, and examine the forces at play, you will surely see the possibility of such an outcome.

    Brits/Yanks and Russians weren't exactly kissing cousins in the 1940s but they were quite happy to support each other against Hitler. Who was it who said "Countries don't have friends; only interests"?

    Was the common effort against Hitler really a "military alliance", treaty bound with clearly articulated rights and responsibilities allocated among the participants? Or a hastily thrown together marriage of convenience that was betrayed almost as soon as the guns fell silent?

    Were the Soviets really the West's allies? Even in Western minds?

    Who liberated Auschwitz? The Allies
    Who murdered 20,000 Polish officers in Katyn? The Soviets.

    Now answer those two questions the other way round. They're just as truthful but a little incongruous to our ears, no?

    The Soviets fought on the same side as the Anglo-American alliance but were never really thought of as being of the family. An arms length relationship of convenience against a common enemy.

    Which is all a similar arrangement would be in coming years.

    I'm not saying it WILL happen, but there are plenty of portents to suggest that it MIGHT.

    Something for us (ie the Irish) to think about.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,301 ✭✭✭Snickers Man


    roadmaster wrote: »
    Lads never mind the Russians! It’s the brits we need to be worried about. With brexit coming shortly it’s not going to be long before May and Boris say it’s time to get our empire back and we are the first on the list!

    I do think the threat from Britain is certainly likely to re-emerge post Brexit.

    Not because they "want their empire back" but because the strategic alignment of Europe is likely to change, Britain is likely to become first an economic and then a military rival to Europe (as she traditionally has been) and she will want to defend herself from any potential threats.

    That means she has to secure her western back door, ie Ireland.

    Some of the more strategically minded British politicians see this instinctively. Now of course they are not going to send the tanks rolling over the border immediately. That will hopefully, from their point of view, be unnecessary.

    First gambit is to cosy up to Ireland and get us to see that we really belong in lockstep with them. So there will be (indeed are already) some foghorns sounding off that Ireland's best interest is in leaving the EU with Britain, or at least as quickly afterwards as possible. Mr Rees-Mogg has said as much. So too has Mr Farage.
    Keep an eye on the opinion columns of the Daily Telegraph for similar points of view. Some will be conciliatory and point out how great the Irish are, and what good friends we have become and even in the bad old days sure weren't the Irish the most heroic soldiers in the British Army, surely we belong together and that will sort out this "hard border" nonsense etc etc

    Some will be downright dismissive and say that Ireland isn't really a separate country, it's part of the British Isles, it's been a possession of the crown since the 12th century, any idea of Irish nationhood is a myth, look how quickly they gave up their sovereignty to Brussels etc etc
    It is already the stated opinion of the Telegraph that the importance of "avoiding a hard border" in the agenda of Brexit negotiations is just the EU cynically exploiting the Good Friday Agreement to put a stop to Brexit once and for all. We, the Irish, are not acting in our own interests by insisting that although there is no issue with Britain leaving the EU, that cannot absolve Britain from honouring existing commitments she has made in international treaties that she has signed. No. We're just pawns in the hands of the dastardly Eurocrats who have far more interest in screwing Britain than aiding us.

    Once those lines of argument fail, the talking will get harder and the big stick will start to be brandished. We have a choice to make: team up with the British and kiss goodbye to Europe; or reaffirm our commitment to Europe and become an existential threat to Britain by virtue of our geography.

    It's really ****ed everything up this Brexit malarkey.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,504 ✭✭✭tac foley


    Apart from arguing that, geographically, the island of Ireland IS part of the British Isles - a physical fact that can readily be ascertained by reading most any atlas- the thought that an imminent invasion by the British Armed Forces is keeping you awake at night is sad indeed.

    Again, like many others before you, you are confusing 'Britain' with the United Kingdom, possibly deliberately in order to foment discontent and garner support among your like-minded fellow citizens, if, indeed, there are any, since the United Kingdom, at least, part of it, already occupies the North of the island. Of course the Republic of Ireland is a separate country and sovereign nation, and likely to remain so for the foreseeable future.

    Please rest assured that your 'Chicken Little' dreams/nightmares are baseless.

    tac


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,301 ✭✭✭Snickers Man


    tac foley wrote: »
    the thought that an imminent invasion by the British Armed Forces is keeping you awake at night is sad indeed.

    ..Please rest assured that your 'Chicken Little' dreams/nightmares are baseless.

    tac

    What part of " of course they are not going to send the tanks rolling over the border immediately. That will hopefully, from their point of view, be unnecessary" did you overlook?

    What I described were strategic calculations based on a set of circumstances that are very likely to evolve after Brexit. (Or will you insist on UKexit with the same vehemence that you urged us to consider the subtle difference between "Britain" and "UK"?)

    Strategic calculation is ONE of the reasons (there are others) why HM Government was so keen to hang on to Northern Ireland while the rest of the island gained independence. And strategic calculation is forming a big part of their negotiating position during the Brexit (sorry UKexit) talks.

    Ireland is going to be inveigled, cajoled and in the long term strong armed by Britain to join them outside the EU. If necessary. Of course we don't know what is likely to happen in the outside world to influence this. The whole thing could become moot thanks to forces beyond Europe's immediate influence.

    But as Charles de Gaulle once said "Geography is the constant factor in the making of history."


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,504 ✭✭✭tac foley


    Dream on, Sir - your alarmist ravings are based on whatever video 'game of empires' you may or may not be playing. You wrote - 'Ireland is going to be inveigled, cajoled and in the long term strong armed by Britain to join them outside the EU.'

    I can only assume that you really believe that this might happen, and that alone is enough to place your posts in the 'flat earth' and 'I was raped by goblins from Sirius' categories.

    tac


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,529 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    I just what to point out i was only taking the pi**s about the british taking back there empire. I think this thread has gone a bit mental


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,301 ✭✭✭Snickers Man


    OK.

    Put this in a time capsule for 20 years and see how things have turned out.

    But the bit about the likes of Farage and Rees Mogg saying that Ireland should do as Britain has done and leave the EU has already happened. Do you think it's because THEY are so concerned for OUR welfare?

    "D'ye know what? D'ye know what? Twenty years ago, you all laughed at me. Well, I have to say, you're not laughing any more are you?"
    Snickers Man, 2038 (if he's still alive)


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,504 ✭✭✭tac foley


    Messrs Farage and Rees-Mogg don't a gnat's fart about Ireland's welfare - one is a 'who-was he' and the other is a wannabe. They were simply suggesting that perhaps Ireland's best interests were not well-served by its continuance as a member of the EU, not actually proposing that earnest consideration should be given to leaving now, and that if they didn't, the UK government might be forced to make the decision on their behalf by force of arms.

    tac


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,301 ✭✭✭Snickers Man


    tac foley wrote: »
    Messrs Farage and Rees-Mogg don't a gnat's fart about Ireland's welfare

    Agreed.
    tac foley wrote: »
    They were simply suggesting that perhaps Ireland's best interests were not well-served by its continuance as a member of the EU, not actually proposing that earnest consideration should be given to leaving now,

    If we both agree on point 1, and we do, then why should either gentleman bother their backsides making point 2? Seems like a contradiction, doesn't it?

    Because they see it in Britain's interest that Ireland leave the EU, not Ireland's, because as we both agree, they "couldn't give a gnat's fart about Ireland's welfare"

    Why so? Loads of reasons. No need to worry about hard borders in Ireland or borders down the Irish Sea. No need to worry about a smaller cheaper English speaking country vying with Britain to be a recipient of inward investment to address the European market. The emotional fillip of seeing another country turn its back on the "European project". But underneath that there is the strategic concern.

    Come on. You used to be a military man. Think it through. A hard border between RoI and NI, apart from the inevitable local strife that is likely to instigate, would by definition isolate Ireland from Britain like never before, or at least like the 1930s of the Economic War. And at least back then we were in the Commonwealth.

    But now, Ireland is part of a larger treaty-bound association of states. It is becoming more closely entangled in the military side of things via arrangements like PESCO. Granted Ireland's contribution to this is not huge but the ties it is making could be important.

    Ireland would inevitably have to become even more closely tied economically to Europe to replace lost or restricted markets in the UK. And it is not unreasonable that European countries could start to make demands on Ireland for greater military co-operation. All very soft and touchy feely at first but the implications of Ireland cosying up to an alliance that includes the successors to the Spanish Armada, the Grande Armee and the Luftwaffe COMBINED would not be lost on British strategic planners.

    None of this analysis envisages anything like "tanks rolling over the border" but it does suggest jockeying for position, wars of words (or tweets) accusations and counter accusations. Soft economic threats leading to larger strategic ones.

    While Britain remains closely allied to mainland Europe, and IF the eventual Brexit agreement makes provision for a customs union of some sort, much of this danger dissipates. We go on being much the same sort of partners we have been for the past number of decades.

    But a hard Brexit, with all the implications that has for British links to Europe and possible break up of NATO (not a completely unlikely scenario) and Britain will start to loom threateningly in Irish eyes.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,832 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Let's just have some clarity here, Germany with a budget of over €30 billion for it's military has the capability to arm just 4 Eurofighters for Air to Air currently, and has only about 30 that are even flight worthy with supply issues for faults for the rest.

    In other words, having Fast Jets and sustaining/supporting and using them is expensive and not easy, and what we could spend for such capability could be off far better usage in other areas of deficiencies in the DF.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,891 ✭✭✭prinzeugen


    sparky42 wrote: »
    Let's just have some clarity here, Germany with a budget of over €30 billion for it's military has the capability to arm just 4 Eurofighters for Air to Air currently, and has only about 30 that are even flight worthy with supply issues for faults for the rest.

    In other words, having Fast Jets and sustaining/supporting and using them is expensive and not easy, and what we could spend for such capability could be off far better usage in other areas of deficiencies in the DF.

    Playing on numbers. Lots of Luftwaffe/RAF tranche 1 jets are stored or RTP.

    Flight radar tells a different story daily. Perhaps you should do some reading?


  • Registered Users Posts: 999 ✭✭✭thomil


    sparky42 wrote: »
    Let's just have some clarity here, Germany with a budget of over €30 billion for it's military has the capability to arm just 4 Eurofighters for Air to Air currently, and has only about 30 that are even flight worthy with supply issues for faults for the rest.

    This is mostly due to massive corruption and incompetency within the German MoD and less of an issue to do with the aircraft and weapons systems themselves. What's more, it's not limited to the Eurofighter force. The supply/readiness situation for pretty much the entire Bundeswehr (German Armed Forces for those who don't know the term) has been a clusterf**k (sorry for the language, that's the most harmless word I could think of) for at least the last 10-15 years.
    There's helicopters whose cabin floors buckle under the pressure exerted by uniform boots (NH-90), warships that pump toxic gas through their hull (Braunschweig class corvettes), entire tank squadrons shut down by lack of spare parts, the last refit of the Tornado fleet left the cockpit instruments so bright that night vision goggles were rendered useless, I could go on and on. Hell, the Bundeswehr can't even provide field rations to their soldiers anymore.

    Using the German Armed Forces as a reference is like using the Irish healthcare system as a benchmark for all systems worldwide.

    Good luck trying to figure me out. I haven't managed that myself yet!



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,832 ✭✭✭sparky42


    prinzeugen wrote: »
    Playing on numbers. Lots of Luftwaffe/RAF tranche 1 jets are stored or RTP.

    Flight radar tells a different story daily. Perhaps you should do some reading?

    I go on what the German's are reporting:
    http://www.defenseworld.net/news/22465/Germany_Faces_Acute_Shortage_of_Operational_Eurofighter_Typhoon_Fighters#.WuxL8ZdG2Uk

    While they can fly with the pods turned off, operationally they are handicapped, along with the fact that they are short on air to air missiles.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,832 ✭✭✭sparky42


    thomil wrote: »
    This is mostly due to massive corruption and incompetency within the German MoD and less of an issue to do with the aircraft and weapons systems themselves. What's more, it's not limited to the Eurofighter force. The supply/readiness situation for pretty much the entire Bundeswehr (German Armed Forces for those who don't know the term) has been a clusterf**k (sorry for the language, that's the most harmless word I could think of) for at least the last 10-15 years.
    There's helicopters whose cabin floors buckle under the pressure exerted by uniform boots (NH-90), warships that pump toxic gas through their hull (Braunschweig class corvettes), entire tank squadrons shut down by lack of spare parts, the last refit of the Tornado fleet left the cockpit instruments so bright that night vision goggles were rendered useless, I could go on and on. Hell, the Bundeswehr can't even provide field rations to their soldiers anymore.

    Using the German Armed Forces as a reference is like using the Irish healthcare system as a benchmark for all systems worldwide.

    That's not bespoke to Germany though, the NH-90 has been a problem child for all those that bought it, while other nations have subs that can't surface (Spain), ships that can't provide enough power (UK), transports that can't meet spec (A400) the list is pretty endless. And yes without question the Bundeswehr is a basket case, that doesn't change the reality that operating FJ is expensive, resource heavy and beyond the budget that the Irish public are willing to provide to the DF.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,559 ✭✭✭andy_g


    But adding to this, who said it had to be a current type fighter?
    The Aer Corp could go for older examples, the F5 (loads of them in the bone yards)
    A4 sky hawks. Again a few in storage etc. Both examples were made to be cheap to operate. Only took the Turkish 4 hours to replace a faulty engine in a F5 at Malta last September.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,102 ✭✭✭Psychlops


    andy_g wrote: »
    But adding to this, who said it had to be a current type fighter?
    The Aer Corp could go for older examples, the F5 (loads of them in the bone yards)
    A4 sky hawks. Again a few in storage etc. Both examples were made to be cheap to operate. Only took the Turkish 4 hours to replace a faulty engine in a F5 at Malta last September.

    Its "Air Corps", why do people still get that wrong il never know.

    An A4 Skyhawk from the 1950's? Really?

    There is a reason these aircraft go to the boneyard. The majority of them end up being used as fodder for missiles.


    If you go that way you are looking for a lot of hassle with regards to age & parts, if I was to go for "point defence" I would go for the BAe Hawk T2, already wired for sidewinder/ASRAAM. Proven Aircraft too, or the KAI T-50 Golden Eagle which is a supersonic trainer.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,559 ✭✭✭andy_g


    Psychlops wrote: »
    Its "Air Corps", why do people still get that wrong il never know.

    An A4 Skyhawk from the 1950's? Really?

    There is a reason these aircraft go to the boneyard. The majority of them end up being used as fodder for missiles.


    If you go that way you are looking for a lot of hassle with regards to age & parts, if I was to go for "point defence" I would go for the BAe Hawk T2, already wired for sidewinder/ASRAAM. Proven Aircraft too, or the KAI T-50 Golden Eagle which is a supersonic trainer.

    Yes Really??!!

    People keep mentioning A/C that can intercept there ya go has the speed for it.
    Also the F5 was also another mention and are currently still in use by some military agencies, reason A/C go to a bone yard is due to the fact it may not be financially viable for said organisation, or is outdated for specific use.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,832 ✭✭✭sparky42


    andy_g wrote: »
    Yes Really??!!

    People keep mentioning A/C that can intercept there ya go has the speed for it.
    Also the F5 was also another mention and are currently still in use by some military agencies, reason A/C go to a bone yard is due to the fact it may not be financially viable for said organisation, or is outdated for specific use.

    I'd love to see the operational rate for those that are still flying F5's, even those that had undergone massive rebuilds far beyond anything in the Boneyard.

    The issue of supporting legacy hardware and in particular the man hours for supporting them is major (what's the pay rate for those countries you are basing off of for example?).

    Let's take an example of what you are suggesting, our CASA's, they have huge hours on them that has meant they've had to be reset twice now and are the longest in service which means they increasing eat manhours to keep them flying.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,938 ✭✭✭Bigus


    How a about a couple of stripped out Honda Jets @ say $4m a pop , with a few old fashioned weapons attached here DIY style ?


  • Registered Users Posts: 40,059 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    andy_g wrote: »
    Yes Really??!!

    People keep mentioning A/C that can intercept there ya go has the speed for it.
    Also the F5 was also another mention and are currently still in use by some military agencies, reason A/C go to a bone yard is due to the fact it may not be financially viable for said organisation, or is outdated for specific use.


    so you are suggesting the A4, an out of service subsonic attack aircraft, as an interceptor?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 590 ✭✭✭Leonidas BL


    A4 wouldn't be worth a fiddlers. I don't think the F5 would be a lot of good either. It would use all its fuel to catch the target and then have to turn back. F-16's or Griphen seems to be the most affordable option with actual capability's.
    They dont even need the multi-role goodies. Couple of ATA missiles, good radar and maybe external fuel tanks and you have a good interceptor/air policing fighter.


  • Registered Users Posts: 531 ✭✭✭yrreg0850


    tac foley wrote: »

    Of course the Republic of Ireland is a separate country and sovereign nation, and likely to remain so for the foreseeable future.

    tac

    Not any more.
    Do you not realise , the goverment cannot "Blow it's nose" without permission from Brussles or Angela M.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,636 ✭✭✭feargale


    The air defence system we need is an automatic answering machine that will keep repeating "we surrender" in English, Russian and Chinese.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,504 ✭✭✭tac foley


    About four years ago I recall suggesting the Gripen.

    My opinion has not changed.

    tac


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,832 ✭✭✭sparky42


    tac foley wrote: »
    About four years ago I recall suggesting the Gripen.

    My opinion has not changed.

    tac

    It would serve pretty much anything and everything we would need Fighters for, and even comes from a "neutral" nation so that might be more acceptable. Sadly it still hits the political reality.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,504 ✭✭✭tac foley


    I even built the 1/72nd scale model and used a spare set of Irish Air Corps decals on it, including the pizza sign. It looked VERY good. A friend of mine got it for Christmas...

    Sadly, it seems that is about as near as you are going to get. :(

    tac


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,529 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    So when we get these nice fighter jets and we intercept a bear and say a hello what then? Id say we would head home for the evening and that would be that its not like we are going to shoot it down. Then later in the evening the phone rings in casement that a casa is needed for top cover and guess what the officer in charge says sorry we cant help you as we have no budget to put a casa in the air because we spent all our money having fun with the russian lads.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,504 ✭✭✭tac foley


    All these negative thoughts are getting me down.

    Anybody here got something positive to say?

    tac


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,529 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    The weather was good so i just had the first BBQ of the season!


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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,504 ✭✭✭tac foley


    YAY!!!!!!!!

    tac


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