Complete N00b but getting house rewired

Vegeta · 18-09-2018 3:38pm #1

Hey folks,

I am renovating a house at the minute, the plumbing is being re-done and the house is being completely rewired.

So I'd love to put in some form of heating control/automation at a minimum but am not sure about what to go with. Hive, Nest etc. Can one of these control multiple zones?

Are there other things I should be considering when the house is at this stage i.e. rewiring? (I am putting Ethernet ports in most rooms)

bk · 18-09-2018 5:57pm

- Put lots of ethernet cables in, as much as you can reasonably afford, they are very useful
for multiple applications.
- You might want to put some ethernet cables in the ceiling for wireless access points.
- You might want to run ethernet to locations that you might want to put CCTV cameras
- You probably want to run 3 cat6 cables to anywhere you plan on having a TV.

All these should run back to a central location. This central location should also have a cat6 cable running to where your phone line/broadband enters the house.

Make sure to run a neutral cable to each light switch and use deep backboxes for the switches.

Maybe cabling for a wired security system.

Use GU10 fittings for downlighters. Use E27 fittings for standard light bulbs.

Lots of plugs, can never have too many.

You may also want to run multiple coax cables from the roof to that central location for satellite/aerial and then run 3 coax from the central location to each TV point. If you decide to do HDMI over cat6, then you can avoid the second part, but no harm in having coax for flexibility.

Hive and Nest both support multiple zones as long as your home is plumbed for multiple zones. Though I'd recommend Tado as offering more options then either of those as Tado supports multiple zones and smart TRV's.

This is not an exhaustive list, but just some things to think about.

Rew · 18-09-2018 9:17pm

bk wrote: »

Maybe cabling for a wired security system.

Talked to an alarm fitter recently and he said go wireless, as good as wired and much cleaner install.

bk · 19-09-2018 10:20am

Rew wrote: »

Talked to an alarm fitter recently and he said go wireless, as good as wired and much cleaner install.

Then he doesn't know what he is talking about!

I've wireless myself now, but given an option wired is definitely superior.

Cleaner install - If adding to an already built house, yes it is certainly much easier for an installer, but that should not be an issue for a renovation/rewiring like the OP, their walls will be open anyway.

Wireless has come on a long way, but it definitely isn't as good. A wireless signal can easily be jammed by a cheap device from China by more sophisticated thieves. Some alarm systems have jam detection, but not all and it isn't perfect. Why risk it if you have the option.

Also the Home Security forum is full of threads of people having issues with wireless sensors failing due to wireless interference. This is particularly imporant to those of us into Home Automation. We are filling our homes with wireless bulbs and switches and thermostats and motion sensors, etc. many of which will be operating on the same wireless frequencies as alarm sensors.

In the past wireless alarm sensors were ok because not much else was usign the same frequencies, but that is quickly changing now and 866Mhz is getting crowded and I suspect it is causing issues and will end up causing a lot more in future.

Finally wired sensors avoid the trouble of having to replace batteries every few years, definitely a benefit.

As I said, I've wireless myself, so it is ok, but if you can I'd go wired if doing a renovation/new build.

kenmc · 19-09-2018 10:53am

bk wrote: »

Then he doesn't know what he is talking about!

Sounds like he knows exactly what he's talking about, and that's making life as simple as possible with no regard to the client. Wireless means he can lob a sensor wherever is convenient, no wiring to tidy, no mess to cleanup. In and out, thanks for the cash.

Go wired if you possibly can - and not just for alarms, but for networking too, as much as possible, for TV, sat boxes etc.

wexfordman2 · 19-09-2018 11:39am

On The coax side, I would say define your tv locations as "Primary" and "Secondary"

Primary TV points are where you want full availability of saoirview, multichannel/stb/sky/virgin, Netflix, Gaming, surround sound, full high def etc.

Secondary TV points are where you want good quality TV, with access to all channels, netflix etc, but where surround sound etc is not a requirement.

Then from a wiring perspective:

Primary TV points
4 x coax cables, 3 for sky/sattelite/stb, and 1 for redistribution around the house.
4 eth/cat 6 cables, wired back to a single/central point. These will be used for ethernet connections to Smart TV, Set top box/sky/virgin, gaming maching, and a spare point.

Secondary TV points
1 single coax cable to each TV, fed back to central location.
2 x Ethernet/cat6 for smart tv and STB

I would note that in the near future, TV is pretty much going to go streaming for all services, so the longer term view is that coax and HDMI distribution etc will be replaced by ethernet and streaming.

With that in mind, you have 2 options of distributing your set top box around the house.

1) HDMI over cat6
2) HDMI modulated over coax.

Option 1, IMHO, is more expensive, wastefull of cat6 cable (a dedicated cat6 is required for each tv just for HDMI over cat6). It may give you a superior picture, but these are "secondary tv" points, so is this soemthing that is needed ?

Option 2 is, again IMHO, cheaper (about €2-300 for a good quality modulator), and utilises the coax you are putting in that will distribute freeview/saorview etc. It also will carry IR control back to your STB as well. The quality of the picture will be comparible to terrestrial saorview, I dont think there is any issue around quality with a good quality hdmi modulator.

Security:- Def go wired, if you have a chance to avoid wireless, then grab it.

Internet/CAT6:- As BK said, cat6 for tv points, CCTV locations, your front door, and additional in ceiling points for wifi access.
Cat 6 cables to your attic also, one or 2 will never go amiss.
Outdoor WIFI AP's also.
External buildings, sheds etc, put ethernet in also.

The golden rule on internet, the same as with the alarm system, is wired first...always. Every wired point you put in gives you better performance, better speed, and actually improves your wireless performance by "unloading" it.

Wireless is fine for browsing, tablets/phones, music streaming, smart speakers, some IOT devices etc.

Heating:- Decide what type of heating you are putting in first, then look at the options for control.

Audio:- Multiroom Audio...def can go wireless with this, but plan for location of speakers (sonos,google,lg etc lots of options on the market)
Do you want outdoor speakers ?

Lighting:- BK mentioned neutral in the lightswitch, and deep back boxes already, but if you are looking at smart lighitng, have a think about what type you would like, consider whether a wireless or wired smart lighting system is the way you would go. Look at the options for control (and I mean how it will be controlled manually as well as remotely). I agree with BK 1000% on the netural and deeper backbox, but I would investigate a bit further, cat6 to wall switches is also something to consider for ligthing control.

Power:- Outdoor sockets, often overlooked. Sockets in your garden, and outdoor lighting.

Lawnmower:- How big is your lawn ? Smart electric lawnmowers are one of the best smart devices you can put into your home, they do a far better job than you or I could do. There are some things that you can do with regards your lawn layout to make using one easier.

Not all of this will float your boat, but worth throwing them all in the mix for you to consider.

Vegeta · 19-09-2018 2:15pm

Thanks a million folks. Lots to think of there, good shout with the Ethernet cables being cat 6. Would never have thought of that.

Also didn't have a clue with regards the light fittings.

The house already has an alarm, mostly wired, with a few wireless components, which I may replace now.

Yeah heating is going to have multiple zones, my brother if the plumber so I can be as demanding as I can get away with

I'll look into the Tado

Vegeta · 20-09-2018 3:05pm

Vegeta wrote: »

I'll look into the Tado

So just watched a few videos on this folks, needless to say the installs demonstrated were on quite simple setups. Single thermostat downstairs and maybe hot water control too. Are these generally run using a single thermostat?

I think my heating will have 3 zones, underfloor downstairs, rads upstairs and hot water. But I was thinking of putting more than a single thermostat upstairs to control individual bedroom temperatures.

How well do rad thermostats work? They're right beside the rads so do they get distorted sense of how warm the room actually is?

Also it seems all stats are battery powered? Is battery life good on these?

dam099 · 20-09-2018 3:56pm

wexfordman2 wrote: »

Secondary TV points
....

With that in mind, you have 2 options of distributing your set top box around the house.

1) HDMI over cat6
2) HDMI modulated over coax.

Option 1, IMHO, is more expensive, wastefull of cat6 cable (a dedicated cat6 is required for each tv just for HDMI over cat6). It may give you a superior picture, but these are "secondary tv" points, so is this soemthing that is needed ?

Option 2 is, again IMHO, cheaper (about €2-300 for a good quality modulator), and utilises the coax you are putting in that will distribute freeview/saorview etc. It also will carry IR control back to your STB as well. The quality of the picture will be comparible to terrestrial saorview, I dont think there is any issue around quality with a good quality hdmi modulator.

I take the point about wasting CAT6 runs but how is Option 2 cheaper,? I havent used HDMI over CAT6 myself but the baluns seem to run around £30? Maybe for a large number of secondary points as I suspect the modulators are one to many but wouldnt IR control still need magic eye type receivers at each location?

dam099 · 20-09-2018 4:02pm

bk wrote: »

- Put lots of ethernet cables in, as much as you can reasonably afford, they are very useful
for multiple applications.
- You might want to put some ethernet cables in the ceiling for wireless access points.
- You might want to run ethernet to locations that you might want to put CCTV cameras
- You probably want to run 3 cat6 cables to anywhere you plan on having a TV.

All these should run back to a central location. This central location should also have a cat6 cable running to where your phone line/broadband enters the house.

I would second this. Just had a renovation myself this summer and ran 4 points to the main living room TV area. Already using 3 of them, 1 from a switch back to the router for smart devices to access internet, 1 with an RCA balun to distribute Zone 2 audio from my AV receiver to speakers in another room and 1 for telephone back to the telephone port on my ISPs router.

The telephone one saved me losing use of the DECT basestation for a handset as I hadnt considered it when hiding my modem away on top of a high kitchen cabinet.

wexfordman2 · 20-09-2018 4:31pm

dam099 wrote: »

I take the point about wasting CAT6 runs but how is Option 2 cheaper,? I havent used HDMI over CAT6 myself but the baluns seem to run around £30? Maybe for a large number of secondary points as I suspect the modulators are one to many but wouldnt IR control still need magic eye type receivers at each location?

The assumption is that those are already in place, you already have a coax distribution system in place.

Assuming you already have coax distribution throughout the house, fed via an IR passthrough compatible amp/spliter (most are these days anyway), then the only additional cost is the HDMI modulator, where you get 1 output, split to many (entirely dependent on the number of outputs on your amp/splitter.

You would need to split the HDMI signal first also.

So for HDMI Modulator approach you would need.

HDMI output to
2W hdmi splitter (one output for local tv, the second feeding your modulator
HDMI Modulator output to
4 or 8W dist amp to
4, 8 or more Remote TV's (and IR eye as you said).

With the cat/hdmi solution, you then have a pair of balun for every tv, plus would you not need a hdmi splitter as well, it seems quite messy to me, and I am not sure for what gain, considering also the restrictions on cable length for hdmi over cat.

So the HDMI over Cat solution would be

HDMI output to
4 w or 8w HDMI splitter to
4 or 8 TX baluns to
4 or 8 RX baluns.

The cabling setup for this is also much more complicated than with a straightforward coax setup.

There probably is a cut off point dependent on the number of tv's you have. If you are adding just one or 2 tv points, then maybe HDMI over cat makes more sense from a cost perspective, but IMHO still much more complex,

bk · 20-09-2018 8:09pm

Vegeta wrote: »

So just watched a few videos on this folks, needless to say the installs demonstrated were on quite simple setups. Single thermostat downstairs and maybe hot water control too. Are these generally run using a single thermostat?

I think my heating will have 3 zones, underfloor downstairs, rads upstairs and hot water. But I was thinking of putting more than a single thermostat upstairs to control individual bedroom temperatures.

In this configuration you would buy:
- 1 Tado Smart Thermostat Starter Kit - For downstairs
- 1 Tado Smart Thermostat (if out of stock you can get a second starter kit I think, it would just give you an extra unneed bridge). - For Upstairs rads
- 1 Extension Kit - For hotwater

Of course you should double check this with Tado, they seemingly have very good support for answering questions like this.

Vegeta wrote: »

How well do rad thermostats work? They're right beside the rads so do they get distorted sense of how warm the room actually is?

Also it seems all stats are battery powered? Is battery life good on these?

The Tado TRV's are optional, though at the very least a good idea to get at least basic TRV's installed with any new rads, you can always add the Tado TRV's later.

Yes each TRV has it's own thermostat built into it. I'm not sure if it would be perfect, but if the room felt a little colder then the reported temp, then easy enough, just set the rooms temperature a bit higher and the rad will turn on.

ImportMeHappy · 21-09-2018 10:15am

wexfordman2 wrote: »

1) HDMI over cat6
2) HDMI modulated over coax.

Really appreciate all the advice in this and other threads.
I've a question regarding options 1) and 2) above or just using 3) HDMI.

We're re-insulating the front rooms and hall under the suspended wooden floors (not rewiring) so was thinking it would be a good opportunity to move all the boxes under the telly (amp, stb, shield, router etc) to a cabinet under the stairs (approx 7m) and run just a single HMDI cable from the tv out on the amp back to the Telly. I'd run a couple of cat6 cables too to handle any other network needs, but the video signal would be over the HDMI cable. Similarly run dedicated audio cables directly under the floor boards from the AMP to the various speaker points around the room. All controlled via a Harmony hub.

The question is, in my case where you're just talking about one room why would you choose options 1) or 2) above instead of just a single HMDI cable?

bk · 21-09-2018 10:46am

ImportMeHappy wrote: »

The question is, in my case where you're just talking about one room why would you choose options 1) or 2) above instead of just a single HMDI cable?

I wouldn't, under your specific circumstances I'd run a high quality 4K Supporting HDMI cable. Note ideally HDMI 2.1. It is what I've done myself.

HDMI over cat6 or Coax is usually HD only, not 4k. Well strictly speaking there are 4k over HDMI systems, but they cost hundreds of euros and are very high end gear. In your case a €30 HDMI cable will do the same job just as well.

Usually you would do HDMI over cat6/coax where the distances are much further, beyond the length of a HDMI cable or if distributing to multiple rooms.

BTW still really good idea to run a few cat6 drops to the TV location. For ethernet, to allow you send IR signals back to the cabinet and maybe for changes in technology in future.

The high horse brigade · 21-09-2018 10:58am

bk wrote: »

I wouldn't, under your specific circumstances I'd run a high quality 4K Supporting HDMI cable. Note ideally HDMI 2.1. It is what I've done myself.

HDMI over cat6 or Coax is usually HD only, not 4k. Well strictly speaking there are 4k over HDMI systems, but they cost hundreds of euros and are very high end gear. In your case a €30 HDMI cable will do the same job just as well.

Usually you would do HDMI over cat6/coax where the distances are much further, beyond the length of a HDMI cable or if distributing to multiple rooms.

BTW still really good idea to run a few cat6 drops to the TV location. For ethernet, to allow you send IR signals back to the cabinet and maybe for changes in technology in future.

I'd even go as far as running a fibre cable for future use

ImportMeHappy · 21-09-2018 12:07pm

Thanks guys, very much appreciated. Cheers!

wexfordman2 · 21-09-2018 3:45pm

ImportMeHappy wrote: »

Really appreciate all the advice in this and other threads.
I've a question regarding options 1) and 2) above or just using 3) HDMI.

We're re-insulating the front rooms and hall under the suspended wooden floors (not rewiring) so was thinking it would be a good opportunity to move all the boxes under the telly (amp, stb, shield, router etc) to a cabinet under the stairs (approx 7m) and run just a single HMDI cable from the tv out on the amp back to the Telly. I'd run a couple of cat6 cables too to handle any other network needs, but the video signal would be over the HDMI cable. Similarly run dedicated audio cables directly under the floor boards from the AMP to the various speaker points around the room. All controlled via a Harmony hub.

The question is, in my case where you're just talking about one room why would you choose options 1) or 2) above instead of just a single HMDI cable?

As others said, HDMI straight connection is your soltuin for just the one room.

Don't forget to run coax as well though, for terrestrial etc. Even if it's just for ir control to avoid you having to help a cupboard open or point the remote away from the tv. Using the remote eye on the coax meens you can also control your hidden av equipment

ImportMeHappy · 21-09-2018 4:35pm

wexfordman2 wrote: »

As others said, HDMI straight connection is your soltuin for just the one room.

Don't forget to run coax as well though, for terrestrial etc. Even if it's just for ir control to avoid you having to help a cupboard open or point the remote away from the tv. Using the remote eye on the coax meens you can also control your hidden av equipment

The plan is to use my Harmony elite with the Hub for IR control, but will run a coax too, no harm. Thanks, appreciate all your comments in the various threads, very informative.

bk · 21-09-2018 4:41pm

ImportMeHappy wrote: »

The plan is to use my Harmony elite with the Hub for IR control, but will run a coax too, no harm. Thanks, appreciate all your comments in the various threads, very informative.

Yep, that is what I do in my setup, but no harm in having other options if it doesn't work out.

I'd also advise running a long 3.5" audio cable from the cupboard to the TV. This can then be used to control the TV with a IR blaster from the hub. This allows you to use the Harmony remote without actually pointing it at the TV, which is very handy.

ImportMeHappy · 21-09-2018 5:21pm

bk wrote: »

Yep, that is what I do in my setup, but no harm in having other options if it doesn't work out.

I'd also advise running a long 3.5" audio cable from the cupboard to the TV. This can then be used to control the TV with a IR blaster from the hub. This allows you to use the Harmony remote without actually pointing it at the TV, which is very handy.

Cheers, will do. So thats..

Understairs cabinet to TV location
1. 2 HDMI 2.1 (1 for redundancy)
2. 2 CAT6 (1 for TV, 1 spare)
3. 1 COAX
4. 1 3.5” AUDIO (IR Blaster)
5. 1 Optical (Future proofing)

The high horse brigade · 21-09-2018 5:41pm

ImportMeHappy wrote: »

Cheers, will do. So thats..

Understairs cabinet to TV location
1. 2 HDMI 2.1 (1 for redundancy)
2. 2 CAT6 (1 for TV, 1 spare)
3. 1 COAX
4. 1 3.5” AUDIO (IR Blaster)
5. 1 Optical (Future proofing)

I'd run more cat6 and forget about the second HDMI for redundancy, even just have it there don't terminate it as 2 cat6 can be used to send HDMI, you never know what new standard will come about in future

druss · 23-09-2018 3:57pm

Interesting thread! I've a deposit on a new build and I've already asked about the possibility of making some requests on the wiring set up.

As the house is early stages of construction, it IS apparently possible to make changes. Now i just need to figure out what it is that I might actually want out of this!

It's a bungalow and will be in a Fibre to Home area. My opening view was just to ask for more Cat 6 and more actual plug sockets. Now I know I should add coax to that as well.

I was thinking of going with a Multisat/Saorview set up. I have a Vu Duo2, Nvidia Shield, Xbox, Nintendo Switch, Google Home etc and if there is a way of tidying up the wiring/or housing most of the stuff in a cooled media cabinet, then I'm all ears!

Probably will be two or three tvs. Living room, kitchen, spareroom. But, using the Primary TV/Secondary TV setup described by wexfordman2, I'd be treating the first two as "primary".

Spent the last few days looking up expensive options on home security, home audio and smart lawnmowers. I need more money!

bk · 24-09-2018 12:50pm

druss wrote: »

I was thinking of going with a Multisat/Saorview set up. I have a Vu Duo2, Nvidia Shield, Xbox, Nintendo Switch, Google Home etc and if there is a way of tidying up the wiring/or housing most of the stuff in a cooled media cabinet, then I'm all ears!

Is there somewhere in your home that you can designate as your media center location. Perhaps under a stairs or in a utility room?

If you can, that is the ideal place to put all the gear and then have all the wiring run too and from this central location.

So aerial/satellite/broadband/power into it and then cat6/coax/hdmi/audio cables out of it to various other rooms.

druss · 24-09-2018 2:42pm

bk wrote: »

Is there somewhere in your home that you can designate as your media center location. Perhaps under a stairs or in a utility room?

If you can, that is the ideal place to put all the gear and then have all the wiring run too and from this central location.

So aerial/satellite/broadband/power into it and then cat6/coax/hdmi/audio cables out of it to various other rooms.

No stairs. I will have a utility room, so I suppose I can see if I can make that work.

Presume I'll need to consider placement a bit away from the washing machine/dishwasher etc.

Tinder Surprise · 25-09-2018 11:38am

I find a lot of people get hung up on the idea and unsightly look of many network points on a wall, and it discourages running extra CAT6 cable

You're probably never gonna get this chance again to pull cable.

I'd run as many as I could and don't forget you can always leave excess cable runs in wall voids hidden away and out of sight for future use.

Cable is relatively cheap (i dont mean buy cheap cable..never!) so as far I am concerned run in lots of redundancy

One caveat; Do use cable tubing/conduit where possible (its really cheap) as you're doubling down on future proofing.
If the cable type needs to be changed in the future it will be a hell of a lot easier swap out if cable conduit was used.

Identifying the network points is easy but think of CCTV etc.
Tip: run a CAT6 cable to the four furthest corners of the attic and add another 5metres looped and left there - you'll be nearly guaranteed to have covered any upper floor CCTV cable requirements, and more!

Also think of wireless A.P points in central ceiling locations - again run cable to them. If you use them in the future good, if not easily reassigned to other needs.

bk · 25-09-2018 1:29pm

druss wrote: »

Presume I'll need to consider placement a bit away from the washing machine/dishwasher etc.

Yes, ideally if you can put a bit of space between these and your networking and AV electronics.

BTW if you have a dryer of some sort, you ideally want it vented to outside the room or a condensing dryer type. You don't want a cheap dryer that just vents into the rooms air, that causes high humidity and mold, which would be bad for both your home and your AV/networking gear.

If hang drying clothes in that room, use a dehumidifier.

Vegeta · 25-09-2018 4:38pm

So I am definitely running at least two Cat6 cables to nearly all rooms. That will add up to a decent number of connections. Do people just bang these into an Ethernet switch and then plug the switch into the router/modem? Any recommendations on switches?

The high horse brigade · 25-09-2018 5:10pm

Vegeta wrote: »

So I am definitely running at least two Cat6 cables to nearly all rooms. That will add up to a decent number of connections. Do people just bang these into an Ethernet switch and then plug the switch into the router/modem? Any recommendations on switches?

The right thing to do is get a 6u or 9u cabinet, a patch panel and use factory patch leads to a switch.

wexfordman2 · 25-09-2018 10:40pm

The high horse brigade wrote: »

The right thing to do is get a 6u or 9u cabinet, a patch panel and use factory patch leads to a switch.

I know what you mean, ordinarily I would agree, but in a domestic situation, terminating the cat cable and plugging I to a good sized switch would be nearly enough.

Vegeta · 26-09-2018 9:56am

The high horse brigade wrote: »

The right thing to do is get a 6u or 9u cabinet, a patch panel and use factory patch leads to a switch.

Any decent Irish suppliers of this stuff? They don't seem mad money so probably worth doing now while I can.

wexfordman2 · 26-09-2018 10:27am

Vegeta wrote: »

Any decent Irish suppliers of this stuff? They don't seem mad money so probably worth doing now while I can.

Depends where you are based. In cork, pcs systems have a reasonable supply of stuff. Wood communications in Dublin, I've got stuff from them before and found they have a good range

Complete N00b but getting house rewired

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