Dublin ranks 3rd in terms of the amount of time spent in cars due to congestion

OldMrBrennan83 · 10-03-2019 4:18pm

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Can you explain something to me.

Do you want to be in a car or do you want to sit in your car and for a 30 minute journey to take 2 hours in a car because you enjoy sitting in congestion.

Reading your posts it suggests the latter. I think everyone else would feel that this si not ideal.

I would love for people who want to drive to be able to drive in a decent time without massive congestion. In my opinion the easiest way to do this is to make other options more attractive so that other options are more viable and it removes people from the roads.

Personally I rely on public transport. I start work at 8 because congestion on the roads is bad and my boss is understanding. It's 10km from home to work. Running or cycling would be a viable option if I had shower facilities but we don't have them.

I'm saying I don't see sitting in a car in traffic as a massive issue. Podcasts, music, radio, audiobooks, heat, comfortable seat, no smells of other people or listening to them roaring down a phone. There's a lot to be said for it really and I'd rather two hours in my own car than 30 mins on a pushbike or a bus.

AndrewJRenko · 10-03-2019 4:27pm

Qrt wrote: »

Enjoy your soul-destroying congestion so.

It's not just the soul that he's destroying. It is his own body too, and the health of many others.

OldMrBrennan83 wrote: »

What if a company has 500 employees that start at 8am? I presume the end goal for you lot is to have them all cycling to work in one big pack, so how do you shower 500 people at once?

Just put one shower cubicle on every parking space in the car park, and everything will work out fine, right? No-one gives a second thought to provision of vast amounts of employee parking, but a suggestion of a few showers is suddenly just too much?

OldMrBrennan83 wrote: »

That's the endgame for the hive isn't it? Force us all out of cars and onto bikes?

Dang, the secret is out. We're screwed now.

Anyway, at least you haven't worked out about the compulsory wearing of lycra at all times too, let's keep schtum about that one.

Someone with more strategic vision might have managed to work out that the more people that can be encouraged to cycle, the more space there will be on the road for the remaining motorists.

Thargor · 10-03-2019 5:08pm

OldMrBrennan83 wrote: »

I'm saying I don't see sitting in a car in traffic as a massive issue. Podcasts, music, radio, audiobooks, heat, comfortable seat, no smells of other people or listening to them roaring down a phone. There's a lot to be said for it really and I'd rather two hours in my own car than 30 mins on a pushbike or a bus.

Deranged tbh.

OldMrBrennan83 · 10-03-2019 5:12pm

Thargor wrote: »

Deranged tbh.

Or just different to you.

Thinking your way is the only way is a sad trait developing in people these days.

LeChienMefiant · 10-03-2019 5:19pm

This is reminding me of the movie Wall E.

Thargor · 10-03-2019 6:12pm

OldMrBrennan83 wrote: »

Or just different to you.

Thinking your way is the only way is a sad trait developing in people these days.

Nope, preferring to spend a 2 hour journey in one form of transport, especially the most harmful, most expensive kind, compared to a 30 minute journey in any other form is pretty deranged, if the diiference was 45 minutes in a car compared to 30 by public transport/cycling/walking etc it wouldnt be so deranged but you said 2 hours. Thats a 4 hour commute compared to 1! You dont need to be in any hive mind to think thats no quality of life.

OldMrBrennan83 · 10-03-2019 6:14pm

Thargor wrote: »

Nope, preferring to spend a 2 hour journey in one form of transport, especially the most harmful, most expensive kind, compared to a 30 minute journey in any other form is pretty deranged, if the diiference was 45 minutes in a car compared to 30 by public transport/cycling/walking etc it wouldnt be so deranged but you said 2 hours. Thats a 4 hour commute compared to 1! You dont need to be in any hive mind to think thats no quality of life.

Why brought harmful into it? That's not my concern. I was just saying I'd rather be in my car than on a bus or a bike and I would prefer it even if it was 4x the length as both a bike or bus are my worst nightmare. Give me solitude and comfort any day.

AndrewJRenko · 10-03-2019 6:36pm

OldMrBrennan83 wrote: »

Why brought harmful into it? That's not my concern.

Maybe it should be your concern?

Thargor · 10-03-2019 7:16pm

OldMrBrennan83 wrote: »

Why brought harmful into it? That's not my concern. I was just saying I'd rather be in my car than on a bus or a bike and I would prefer it even if it was 4x the length as both a bike or bus are my worst nightmare. Give me solitude and comfort any day.

So you consider a 4 hour commute to be "comfort and solitude"? That can not be good for your physical or mental health or wallet. Not to mention the wider damage from 4 hours of carbon emissions and all the other associated pollutants but then you've said that kind of nonsense doesn't concern you so probably a waste of time digging deeper into your unique outlook.

OldMrBrennan83 · 10-03-2019 7:21pm

Thargor wrote: »

So you consider a 4 hour commute to be "comfort and solitude"? That can not be good for your physical or mental health or wallet. Not to mention the wider damage from 4 hours of carbon emissions and all the other associated pollutants but then you've said that kind of nonsense doesn't concern you so probably a waste of time digging deeper into your unique outlook.

Yeah like I said, I don't care about that aspect at all. You're also way off the mark with the mental health thing and quite snide and cheeky to be going down that road at all. Physical I'll give you as there's no arguing that cycling is better physically than driving but not everything needs to be a bloody mental health buzzword these days. I'm far happier listening to what I want to listen to in my car away from people's conversations/odours/personal space encroachment or by freezing my hole off on a bike so am I not better doing what I'm happier doing? That mental health remark was real rat stuff in the name of trying to win an argument.

Eric Cartman · 10-03-2019 7:29pm

Thargor wrote: »

So you consider a 4 hour commute to be "comfort and solitude"? That can not be good for your physical or mental health or wallet. Not to mention the wider damage from 4 hours of carbon emissions and all the other associated pollutants but then you've said that kind of nonsense doesn't concern you so probably a waste of time digging deeper into your unique outlook.

leaving out all the carbon craic , 30 minutes on public transport vs 2 hours in the car, except.... you forgot the 15 mins walking to the bus, the 15 mins walking off the bus to your office, plus potentially 30-40 minutes arsing about because the bus timed gets you to your office early.

now lets say youre one of the lucky ones who spent mental money on a gaf 2 mins from a luas, and your office is luckily 5 mins walk from said luas and you have little waiting time before work, ill take an extra 30 mins in the car to not walk 5 mins in the rain any day, ill take an extra 30 mins in the car not to be hassled for 2 euro or watch a junkie shoot up, ill take an extra 30 minutes in the car to not have to deal with hoards of soaked people in soaked jackets in the winter constantly brushing off you and soaking you.

sitting in your own car, with your own music, your coffee or whatever and somewhere to put it, a more comfortable seat, safety from junkies and foul smelling people , complete dryness and almost full door to door service every time, the ability to smoke if so inclined and the ability to choose your departure time to get you to the office when you actually need to be there are all worth the longer time it takes.

you talk about mental health, being packed into a train like a sardine , constantly being impacted by the weather and catching every cough / cold / bug going round arent good for you either.

Thargor · 10-03-2019 8:05pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

leaving out all the carbon craic , 30 minutes on public transport vs 2 hours in the car, except.... you forgot the 15 mins walking to the bus, the 15 mins walking off the bus to your office, plus potentially 30-40 minutes arsing about because the bus timed gets you to your office early.

now lets say youre one of the lucky ones who spent mental money on a gaf 2 mins from a luas, and your office is luckily 5 mins walk from said luas and you have little waiting time before work, ill take an extra 30 mins in the car to not walk 5 mins in the rain any day, ill take an extra 30 mins in the car not to be hassled for 2 euro or watch a junkie shoot up, ill take an extra 30 minutes in the car to not have to deal with hoards of soaked people in soaked jackets in the winter constantly brushing off you and soaking you.

sitting in your own car, with your own music, your coffee or whatever and somewhere to put it, a more comfortable seat, safety from junkies and foul smelling people , complete dryness and almost full door to door service every time, the ability to smoke if so inclined and the ability to choose your departure time to get you to the office when you actually need to be there are all worth the longer time it takes.

you talk about mental health, being packed into a train like a sardine , constantly being impacted by the weather and catching every cough / cold / bug going round arent good for you either.

You'd take 30 minutes in a car to avoid a 5 minute walk? Again, a completely deranged viewpoint. How much rain do you think we get here btw? It really isnt much tbh, Amsterdam gets more. Your junkie/wet jacket brushing fears are just as wildly exaggerated.

Anyway we're talking about 4 hours vs 1 hour commuting every day, if you want to move the goal posts around Im sure you'll find a way to make a point though.

SeanW · 10-03-2019 8:17pm

Thargor wrote: »

You'd take 30 minutes in a car to avoid a 5 minute walk? Again, a completely deranged viewpoint. How much rain do you think we get here btw? It really isnt much tbh, Amsterdam gets more. Your junkie/wet jacket brushing fears are just as wildly exaggerated.

Anyway we're talking about 4 hours vs 1 hour commuting every day, if you want to move the goal posts around Im sure you'll find a way to make a point though.

He's not far off. I've had the misfortune to commute in Dublin for the past 6 years, all of it by necessity on public transport. Though my commute was often as little as 5 miles, it's always been an hour minimum each way, sometimes 2 hours each way, because everything is grinding to a halt in the peak hours. And a lot of that in my experience has to do with the Trinity/D'Olier St/Westmoreland St. mess where private cars are prohibited. If you have to take a bus around that junction, it alone will ad half an hour each way each day to your commute.

In that time, the housing crisis has gone from bad to worse and near as I can figure, every mass transport line, DART, both Luas lines, Maynooth line, are at or near capacity. Even the heavy rail seems to have got slower and more congested over the years, as there are more trains on each line, seems a lot of things run much slower than they should.

Sometimes in morning I have to change trains in Connolly, the DART comes in and it's a feckin' sardine can, no way I'm getting onto that so I have to wait for the next train.

It's getting to the point where you could have a shorter commute if you moved to Metro Manila. Where, by the way, they're actually building a Metro.

Until something radical is done to improve public transport in Dublin, people like E.C. will continue, logically, to have their commute in comfort even if it takes a little longer. And by "radical" I mean Bus Connects, Metro Link, Dart Underground and additional quad tracking at the very minimum.

Thargor · 10-03-2019 8:37pm

SeanW wrote: »

He's not far off. I've had the misfortune to commute in Dublin for the past 6 years, all of it by necessity on public transport. Though my commute was often as little as 5 miles, it's always been an hour minimum each way, sometimes 2 hours each way, because everything is grinding to a halt in the peak hours. And a lot of that in my experience has to do with the Trinity/D'Olier St/Westmoreland St. mess where private cars are prohibited. If you have to take a bus around that junction, it alone will ad half an hour each way each day to your commute.

In that time, the housing crisis has gone from bad to worse and near as I can figure, every mass transport line, DART, both Luas lines, Maynooth line, are at or near capacity. Even the heavy rail seems to have got slower and more congested over the years, as there are more trains on each line, seems a lot of things run much slower than they should.

Sometimes in morning I have to change trains in Connolly, the DART comes in and it's a feckin' sardine can, no way I'm getting onto that so I have to wait for the next train.

It's getting to the point where you could have a shorter commute if you moved to Metro Manila. Where, by the way, they're actually building a Metro.

Until something radical is done to improve public transport in Dublin, people like E.C. will continue, logically, to have their commute in comfort even if it takes a little longer. And by "radical" I mean Bus Connects, Metro Link, Dart Underground and additional quad tracking at the very minimum.

Yes Im not claiming people dont need their cars, hats moving the goalposts, Im replying to someone who claims 4 hours a day commuting is preferable when a 1 hour option exists, you're not even moving the goalposts there actually, you also seem to think 4 hours traveling vs 1 hour is acceptable, you mention taking 2 hours to go 5 miles on your own commute, thats 30 minutes on a bike.

OldMrBrennan83 · 10-03-2019 8:43pm

Thargor wrote: »

Yes Im not claiming people dont need their cars, hats moving the goalposts, Im replying to someone who claims 4 hours a day commuting is preferable when a 1 hour option exists, you're not even moving the goalposts there actually, you also seem to think 4 hours traveling vs 1 hour is acceptable, you mention taking 2 hours to go 5 miles on your own commute, thats 30 minutes on a bike.

You keep saying (in between calling everyone deranged that doesn't agree with you) 4 hours vs 1 hour. Of course 4 hours is worse than 1 when you just keep talking in time. But for me it's 4 hours IN A CAR vs 1 hour NOT. That's still no contest for me.

That's before you even get to the other factors of PT timings that were mentioned above and you ignored.

defrule · 10-03-2019 8:53pm

In other countries where public transport is good, people don't mind walking 10-15 minutes to the nearest station. Once you are at the station you are connected to everywhere.

The problem is, in Ireland the thought of having to walk even 5 minutes to the nearest station is enough to put people back into their cars.

OldMrBrennan83 · 10-03-2019 8:54pm

defrule wrote: »

In other countries where public transport is good, people don't mind walking 10-15 minutes to the nearest station. Once you are at the station you are connected to everywhere.

The problem is, in Ireland the thought of having to walk even 5 minutes to the nearest station is enough to put people back into their cars.

The wall to the station wouldn't bother me in the slightest. What awaits me once I get there is what would put me back into the car.

Thargor · 10-03-2019 9:12pm

OldMrBrennan83 wrote: »

You keep saying (in between calling everyone deranged that doesn't agree with you) 4 hours vs 1 hour. Of course 4 hours is worse than 1 when you just keep talking in time. But for me it's 4 hours IN A CAR vs 1 hour NOT. That's still no contest for me.

That's before you even get to the other factors of PT timings that were mentioned above and you ignored.

Oh sorry, are you feeling insulted after all your hive mind and personal hygiene comments since you came blundering into the thread? We'll leave it there so, enjoy your 4 hours a day in your car and all associated mental/physical/financial costs.

OldMrBrennan83 · 10-03-2019 9:16pm

Thargor wrote: »

Oh sorry, are you feeling insulted after all your hive mind and personal hygiene comments since you came blundering into the thread? We'll leave it there so, enjoy your 4 hours a day in your car and all associated mental/physical/financial costs.

There are no mental costs and you should be ashamed of yourself throwing terms like that around, you've already been told there aren't any and been told by others that travelling on public transport could be worse in that respect.

People like you cheapen it for those with real MH issues.

Idbatterim · 10-03-2019 9:19pm

What about retail only opening from 10am day to Friday ?

CIARAN_BOYLE · 10-03-2019 9:29pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

What about retail only opening from 10am day to Friday ?

Retail opens at 8 or 9 am not because they get customers but rather because they need to get staff in that early as they get their deliveries before 8 am so once their staff is there and unloaded deliveries shops aren't going to pay their staff members to sit around and do nothing.

If shops open at 10am deliveries will happen at 9am and heavy good vehicles will be on the road at rush hour.

I start work at 8 am at the moment. My office is off Grafton Street. When I arrive at work Grafton Street is full of vehicles.

John_Rambo · 10-03-2019 9:37pm

OldMrBrennan83 wrote: »

There are no mental costs and you should be ashamed of yourself throwing terms like that around, you've already been told there aren't any and been told by others that travelling on public transport could be worse in that respect.

People like you cheapen it for those with real MH issues.

I think you're fashionably taking offense where none was intended. Long commutes are normally pretty stressful for people, but evidently not for you.

To draw a line under your situation I think you're in a unique position where you're time rich and can afford to spend four hours in a car instead of an hour on public transport or on a bike per day. You obviously don't have kids to run and collect from school or créches, do the homework, dinners to cook for a family, school lunches to make, sports, training to attend to, kids training/scouts/societies etc... It's only fair for you to recognise that the majority of people are not that time rich therefore those extra three hours a day would be incredibly valuable and simply could not be wasted sitting in traffic for an extra 15 hours a week.

Surely you have the ability to step outside your own world and see that?

AndrewJRenko · 10-03-2019 9:48pm

SeanW wrote: »

Your own figures actually contradict your claim.
They're for London area - the impact of individual cars is worse in large urban areas (more other cars, more idling, greater population density) all ingredients for much greater damage than somewhere else (like Ireland) where none of that applies to the same degree.

£8000 is a car-lifetime figure for London, not an annual figure or a UK wide one.

It's far less outside of London. £1,640 is the figure quoted - over a 14 year lifetime remember - for the UK as a whole.

£1640 is just a little under or around €2000 and many of us would pay that in a single year in taxes. My road tax alone would pay that lifetime cost in only about 2.5-3 years, and I've had my current car for 10.

So none of that congestion stuff applies to the same degree in Dublin?

https://www.thejournal.ie/dublin-traffic-report-4491153-Feb2019/

Really?

OldMrBrennan83 wrote: »

There are no mental costs and you should be ashamed of yourself throwing terms like that around, you've already been told there aren't any and been told by others that travelling on public transport could be worse in that respect.

People like you cheapen it for those with real MH issues.

Strangely enough, formal research shows the opposite of your hypothesis - in the real world, people who commute by car have worse mental health than those who walk or cycle or sue public transport;

https://www.understandingsociety.ac.uk/2014/09/15/car-commute

magicbastarder · 10-03-2019 10:09pm

OldMrBrennan83 wrote: »

you've already been told there aren't any

hello and welcome to the internet. you don't win arguments by simply telling people they are wrong.

OldMrBrennan83 · 10-03-2019 10:11pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

hello and welcome to the internet. you don't win arguments by simply telling people they are wrong.

Well I'm not sure what else can be done when someone is trying to push an idea you've mental health issues because you rather drive than take the bus. What do you suggest, just agree?

magicbastarder · 10-03-2019 10:16pm

i'm suggesting that 'you've already been told there aren't any' doesn't win you the argument.

hell, i just googled 'mental health traffic jams', and this is the list of the first 5 results in the order google returned them:

When there’s traffic, there’s also an alarming rise in domestic violence
https://qz.com/909319/when-there-are-traffic-jams-theres-also-an-alarming-rise-in-domestic-violence/

The stress of sitting in traffic can lead to more crime
http://theconversation.com/the-stress-of-sitting-in-traffic-can-lead-to-more-crime-72323

EFFECT OF TRAFFIC CONGESTION ON MENTAL HEALTH
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/272377280_EFFECT_OF_TRAFFIC_CONGESTION_ON_MENTAL_HEALTH

Get stressed out sitting in traffic jams? One TD says it's impacting on people’s quality of life
https://www.thejournal.ie/traffic-dublin-2-3357884-Apr2017/

Get stressed in traffic jams? Be warned. It could harm your mental health years later
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2303482/Get-stressed-traffic-jams-Be-warned-It-harm-mental-health-years-later.html

(yes, i do appreciate the last one is from the daily mail, which possibly undermines my point)

OldMrBrennan83 · 10-03-2019 10:20pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

i'm suggesting that 'you've already been told there aren't any' doesn't win you the argument.

hell, i just googled 'mental health traffic jams', and this is the list of the first 5 results in the order google returned them:

When there’s traffic, there’s also an alarming rise in domestic violence
https://qz.com/909319/when-there-are-traffic-jams-theres-also-an-alarming-rise-in-domestic-violence/

The stress of sitting in traffic can lead to more crime
http://theconversation.com/the-stress-of-sitting-in-traffic-can-lead-to-more-crime-72323

EFFECT OF TRAFFIC CONGESTION ON MENTAL HEALTH
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/272377280_EFFECT_OF_TRAFFIC_CONGESTION_ON_MENTAL_HEALTH

Get stressed out sitting in traffic jams? One TD says it's impacting on people’s quality of life
https://www.thejournal.ie/traffic-dublin-2-3357884-Apr2017/

Get stressed in traffic jams? Be warned. It could harm your mental health years later
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2303482/Get-stressed-traffic-jams-Be-warned-It-harm-mental-health-years-later.html

(yes, i do appreciate the last one is from the daily mail, which possibly undermines my point)

All of those are undermining actual mental health. God love anyone with real issues these days when everyone is desperate to fall under the banner and makes little of it.

magicbastarder · 10-03-2019 10:40pm

i'm genuinely not sure what strawman you're trying to construct there, but saying 'X is not good for your mental health' does not mean 'you are mentally ill' and nor do people claim that, even if that's how you choose to read it; in the same way saying 'eating a diet of fast food is not good for your heart' =/= ' you have a heart problem'.

unless, of course, you don't believe mental health is a concept unless people you have 'real issues'. in which case, you seem to be the one undermining it.

magicbastarder · 10-03-2019 10:44pm

actually, i'd be curious to see if there was any study on the effect on people who have to commute in cars on their own, vs. people who commute with another person in the car. i.e. whether being cocooned from other people is the prime factor there; in my own experience of cycling to work and having 'negative' interactions with drivers, i've found they usually end amicably when actual communication is possible, which means it's usually during the summer when people have windows down so you are able to actually talk to the drivers.

SeanW · 10-03-2019 11:39pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

So none of that congestion stuff applies to the same degree in Dublin?

https://www.thejournal.ie/dublin-traffic-report-4491153-Feb2019/

Really?

Not to the same extent as London, which has a number of factors that do not apply anywhere in Ireland. There's a very good reason why the article drew a distinction between its London specific figure of £8,000 and the UK nationwide figure which was less than a quarter of that. And remember, those were life-of-the-car figures assuming the car stays on the road for 14 years. They prove the exact opposite of what you are claiming - even the London figure directly contradicts any assertion that motorist don't pay enough tax.

1) Worse air quality. As of now, Air Quality Indicator sensors on London Marylebone Road show an AQI of 56. http://aqicn.org/city/london/
Reliable figures for Ireland are not so widely available, but sensors in Rathmines and Bray most recently detected AQIs in the 30s, both readings falling well within a limit of 50 which is the limit for good air quality.
2) Greater population density. The Greater London Area has more people than Ireland as a whole. Not only does that mean more people breathing in the lower quality air, but when there are lots of tall buildings around it tends to block winds from getting to the ground to blow bad air away.
3) Greater population means that (everything else being equal) a smaller proportion of people driving causes more air pollution than a larger proportion of a smaller population elsewhere. E.g. if there are 1 million people in Dublin, and 25% of those drive once per day, that's 250,000 car journeys. But Greater London has more than 8 million people, if 25% of those people drove once per day, that 2+ million car journeys in London.

That's not to say that the situation in Dublin cannot get worse, but one county that has 8.8 million people is not comparable to a country with 5 million people spread out over 26 counties. That comparison is specious at best, disingenuous at worst.

Yet, even if we accept that the London figure is correct (I have no reason ATM to doubt it) and accepted your baseless comparison of it to anywhere in Ireland, that amounts to about €10,000 lifetime public health costs per car. VRT alone would probably cover that, and VAT, fuel duties, "Motor" Tax, tax on insurance policies, VAT on repairs and maintenance etc, all of that would still be gravy.

But certainly Dublin could get worse if the need to improve its public transport options is not understood by the powers that be. Right now the biggest cost of the infrastructure deficit in Dublin is the loss of people's time, and the public transport we have doesn't seriously ameliorate that.

Strangely enough, formal research shows the opposite of your hypothesis - in the real world, people who commute by car have worse mental health than those who walk or cycle or sue public transport;

https://www.understandingsociety.ac.uk/2014/09/15/car-commute

It may have a lot to do with the person - someone might be chilled out during their drive, listening to their music or whatever, whereas someone else might be stressed out of their heads, watching the clock, furious at the stop-start nature of their journey. It probably depends on both the person and how stressful the traffic.

Dublin ranks 3rd in terms of the amount of time spent in cars due to congestion

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