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Solar Install; the on-going saga
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It's nice when a system works alright. No engine running solely for electrons. The system as it is works well enough most of the year everything ticks over with minimal intervention. It'd be nice to get the fridge off the fossils; entirely doable with just under double the lead, more PV anna B2B charger.
Current trajectory suggests my battery will last another 50 years (to 80% capacity). :cool:
...probably why I stopped recommending semi-traction batteries for occasional weekend use.
Building a bigger, more better, faster family house scale system now, easier knock kWatts off that system than Watts off my camper.Here's my 1125Ah battery...
crabbypaddy wrote: »Do you still have those chinese coulomb counters was wondering if any of them are passable
These yolks?
I don't rate them.
They're not for the unversed in the way of the electron. It's a mare to calibrate, you need reference meters to set it up, it doesn't auto reset, it's not got an efficiency offset (1:1 is most accurate so maybe moot point), the instructions are incorrect, it's a primitive blunt tool, I use both mine as watt meters. They are better than a voltmeter granted, or some misleading coloured leds, but a volt-ammeter with observation of charge behaviour and a noggin' will outsmart it.
... it has got a programmable relay contact though.
Best thing about the TriMetric is it reads greater than 100% charge and you can choose your level of nerd; simple, medium, complex....pity is doesn't have a programmable relay. Combine it with an SC2030 and gorsh you have no excuse for ever killing a battery.
Outtov the box you get;Bogart Engineering wrote:
Battery Volts: From 10.0 – 65.0 volts for main battery. From 0.0 to 100 volts on secondary battery.
Resolution 0.1 volt. Accuracy ± 0.3%
Amps charging or discharging: With 500A/50mV shunt: 00.0 to ± 999 Amps, resolution 0.1A. With
100A/100mV shunt 0.00-300 Amps, resolution 0.01 Amp. ±1% ± least significant digit.
Tell him; Splash out get a TriMetric or a SmartGauge with a cheap panel ammeter or a Victron BMV.
Sher yer battery will last 50 years by proxy.
They'll improve your life and are worth the dosh with a more substantial lower impedance shunt.
No meter on the market can tell you what a hydrometer will.0 -
'tis that time of year again when I must endure the hardship of decanting thimblefuls of deionised H²O into my electron plants...I should probably wake up and spend 3 to 4 times the dosh on AGMs or lithium ions, that perform worse, for not as long and never have the inconvenience of being able to verify my charge system is working up to scratch, as many have advised me come this new dawn of battery revolution.
Sher why would I want reliability when I could get reassuringly expensive components instead?
Maybe I could just meet them halfway and stop boiling my battery dry with my crazy over-voltage of >14.8V absorption charge set point like those sclick magazines tell me? :pac: That way I'll never get a full charge and won't have to worry about....something...can't remember actually what I'm supposed to be worried about...oh that's it explosions!
Flooded Battery Watering:
Easy job, sometimes all you need is an eyeball.- Get a hydrometer and deionised/distilled/filtered rainwater, gloves, goggles (optional), loo roll, baking soda, hot water vessel.
Dremel and wire wheel if ya wanna get fancy. - Fully charge your battery.
For me after 2 weeks of discharge and micro-cycling, with negligible PV gain (November) it took 52 hours @ 15.1V for my TriStar to hit float in mains-mode. I reckon most off the shelf chargers will require multiple cycles.
- Verify battery is fully charged with a hydrometer (because electrolyte expands as you charge the battery, you need to find your max level).
- Pop the caps (I found mine under a maintenance-free sticker). 20 cent coin fits about right. Add water as required using the hydrometer to transfer. Below is an example of a fill marker on my starter battery. Just fill until the electrolyte meniscus tips the hanging dog leg in each cell. My starter didn't need any water.
On my semi-tractions I have no obvious fill marker, I've searched high and low and cannot find a sign of one, I found a reference once upon a time to indicate it was one of the three external bands which is no use when I'm eyeballing it's gubbins...so I just overfill to the bottom of the shroud leaving the slot for hydrogen to escape. I'll be down on capacity for a few months but not bothered...to be honest it was probably perfect where it was.
- Clean your hydrometer with deionised.
- Close all the cells and make sure your vents (if you have them) are facing away from the terminals.
- Address any oxidation, krudd, electrolysis of the terminals with the wire wheel. (trying not to spray crystallised acid around your domicile/battery box). Do not use vaseline...well actually do what you want but Vaseline makes the worst mess imo.
- Clean down battery top with baking soda mixed with warm water if it goes "hssss" you're doing it right. Try not to drop the solution into the cells that would be bad but thankfully hard to do.
- Dry battery top. Clean Soda residue with hot soapy water and dry again.
- Carry on fast charging and embrace the joys of the 14.8V; never equalise, never sulphate setpoint.
0 - Get a hydrometer and deionised/distilled/filtered rainwater, gloves, goggles (optional), loo roll, baking soda, hot water vessel.
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I pulled some data from my gizmotrons:
Alternator charge is unaccounted.
TriMetric: discharged Amp Hours: 6360Ah (~80kWh), 108 cycles to 25% discharge (heavily averaged, I micro-cycle between 1 to 6 week tours).
MorningStar TriStar: 8297Ah generated on Crowns (~107kWh)
8297Ah-6360Ah: 1937Ah power on demand on new battery. Solar direct to load. (~24kWh about 33 cycles not taken from battery when demand was met directly by sunlight). It's actually much higher when you consider the unaccounted power from the alternator that's added to the TriMetric discharged Ah figures.
Ah Total: Combined PV Generation (with alternator before I learned that a 3 stage alternator was useless and stopped bothering) on Elecsols and Crowns.
Hourmeter: 27630; 3.15 years being a boss! :cool:0 -
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Sir Liamalot wrote: »Russia..! of course!!
NASA won't let me buy their radioisotope thermoelectric gensets.
Actually I never looked at the specs before, the russian ones are only 230W
555kg of casing, sheilding, heatsinking and 5kg of stontium0 -
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Sir Liamalot wrote: »hrmm..there is another option...
I think dilithium requires several million volts ,might be dangerous in a campervan 0 -
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Sir Liamalot wrote: »
Eh...I reckon it's still safer than lithium ion on a proprietary charge algorithm.
That battery need Li-poo suction badoom tish. My friends macbook pro battery did that it was like having the laptop balanced on a football trying to type on it
Apple replaced the battery free of charge about 3 years out of warranty. 0 -
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I decided to overhaul my entire gen system because I've had a falling out with my fridge and the relationship can now only be described as untenable. I'm jetisoning it soon as possible. One might think judging by my last post that this is going to be an expensive install. Well shucks so is paying €20 every 3 weeks to run a gas fridge that spoils food on an ongoing basis due to the abscence of any sophisticated temperature regulation.
Atmospheric conditions change, my provisions are spoiled.
A gust of wind blows out the pilot, my provisions are spoiled.
I forget to switch from electric to gas, my provisions are spoiled.
So basically if I want my fridge to work as a mobile deployable life support piece of kit, the best advice is don't leave port. :rolleyes:
Those lumps are an unmitigated robbery. Who designs a fridge with no thermostat and then has the gall to charge €500 for it???!
Here's a back of an envelope calculation I did when I commit to this (double the install costs...I might post a rough revision later)
Then again I now have a manually tilting 150Wp solar module (paid for itself already) and 3 way fridge to sell to offset the install costs so....jaysus it's madness not to.
Gas Absorption Fridge:
2.25kWh p/d
€175 per 6 months
€150 per annum spoilt food.
€40 a year diesel going to get gas.
+35W Charge regulation losses
Unreliable. Gas Hog. Inefficient. Unregulated.
€365 per annum upkeep.
Compressor Electric Fridge:
0.4kWh p/d
Battery to battery Charger: €80
265Wp 60 Cell PV: €130 delivered
New roof Hardware: €50
Consummables: €125
Collect New fridge: €200
20A MainsUpgrade: €80
€665 upgrade. Zero Upkeep.
Increased Electric Load:
30ah, 400Wh per day
PV was making: 450Wh Average minimum.
Upgrading to: ~800Wh
Alternator
was 15A @ 80%: 200Wh per hour
upgrading to 50A @ 80%: 740Wh per hour
Mains Charger
was 75W
upgraded: 320W
Peak hab load (load supply): 170W
Charger overhead: 150W + PV
Spring - Autumn:
Battery reserve. 1.175kWh
Demand load was 275Wh per day: 4.3 days.
added refrigeration: 650wh per day: 1.8day.
Touring offset:
Solar: 800wh > 1.5kWh
Alternator (45mins): 550Wh
1350Wh p/d gen;
750wh supply over nominal demand.
Result:
Load appropriate electric autonomy.
Winter:
Increased Hab Loads: 350Wh
Reduced Fridge Load (active atmospheric cooling) 250wh
Demand Load: 600Wh per day.
Touring offset:
Solar: 15Wh
Alternator (45 mins): 550Wh
35Wh Demand over Supply
Result:
1 month reserve.
Another point of contention is if I want a kWh from the national grid it costs ~€0.13. If I want an ambiguous amount of utility power on the road that means campsite that means €25 and it's unlikely I have the imagination to use 2kWh in a night in a system I designed to run at 50W + refrigeration.
The thing that has previously prevented me from doing this sooner was I need complete autonomy year round and solar PV is not going to cut it in December....well shucks December is cold so it can't be that hard run an atmospherically cooled fridge.
I'm gonna double everything bar battery (unless I have to).0 -
How do I get double the powah from my alternator?
Well get a second alternator, duh. Quadruple it actually.
Ok but what if I want to be stubborn and do it the wrong way...:rolleyes:
Well....er, few options. First we measure it.
Pretty poor output if you ask me.
Split charging alternators is such a terrible idea.
It's not the cable...well it is but I'm not going bigger than 35mm². I could go shorter and T the line instead of daisy chain...this would be better or even daisy chain to service battery first, starting battery second.
These are sensible options I may well revisit.
For now I've renewed the idler damper and tensioner.
I'm sticking a smaller, more faster, more better pulley on it.
I have a 5mm shorter belt to accompany it if it squeaks.
Then I'm going to boost it.
I lost an auction for a 50A Sterling B2B becorse it went for more than I thought it was worth.
Then I took stock to reconsider the option.
I've been in touch with the elusive AidanM_M which in his I believe expert opinion they're an underwhelming unit. He reckons it's all cable and bluster, he's measured systems with the units fitted on proper cable and then bypassed them and not had a significant change in output.
Much as I suspected myself and others here have mentioned.
I can't find any data about them either. Caravan and camper investigative journalism doesn't seem to warrant actually measuring anything as much as having opinions.
But this can't be...I've seen them on youtoobs delivering 80amps to a battery at 50% SOC with a 1kW load running...well shucks that's not a real world scenario and I can do exactly that too with a fat enough piece of copper.
Sure they work when the battery is that low because it's more efficient but this is not how to keep a healthy battery. It ought to live in the 65% to 85% SOC range on a bad day.
I emailed Sterling myself. Twice. Asking for a graph of output relative to state of charge. No reply
All I want is 30A at 80% SOC if it can do that I'll be a happy customer. Now when an engineering company refuses to publish data my BS detector starts to rise...
That leaves me with the competitors...meh nothing I can't do with cable....in fact less because a lot of them are limited to 20 or 30 Amp.
Current plan of attack (get it?!) is I've ordered 3 of these
Chinesium 20A Non-Isolated Boost Regulator CC-CV
I'm going to parallel the outputs & limit them to 45A @ 15.5V and force feed them to my 4-stage PWM charge controller.
If it works I'll unpgrade the FETs inductors and electrolytics.
30A @ 80% SOC and my work here is done.0 -
Nice and easy one. Don't have much call for it.
I've been running a 5A mains PSU via my charge controller the past 3 years expecting the Chinesium build quality to fail. But it's been a trooper.
I have a Victron 15A, and a Sterling 20A in storage, tried them out and neither were capable of finishing charging a battery so I just keep them around in case I need them for batteries I don't really care about.
Last year I upgraded the lighting and now I can pull a peak lighting load of 138W the little 75W PSU has a hard time keeping up with that and actually charging the battery.
So I'm replacing it with a 20A.
This will work in tandem with solar when available.0 -
My favourite. Because it works hardest.
Getting old...I'm done climbing up on the roof for extra power, we're going electric tilt. Otherwise, it makes the productive seasons 4 months shorter.
Got myself 265W for £102 + diesel because this is a domestic panel for houses (as opposed to an extortionate panel for leisure markets).
I could run this on MPPT but ...eh I don't like it, it's probably going to be noisy and may make all my PSUs upset with load sweeping. I think it's going to be too messy.
Here's the spec.
If MorningStar say I can use MPPT like I do PWM which I know works but was never intended to control boosted alternators and SMPSs then I may go that road because I have a spare MPPT controller knocking around...that and if it's not noisy which it is at the moment because of the panel to battery relationship I have it working with. (4kHz at dusk and dawn)
If they say nay then I'm hacking the 60 cell panel to be a 12V panel and I reckon it'll be more efficient than a MPPT because there will be no controller losses.
The bypass diode strategy is subject to change.
Contrary to popular belief MPPT is not 30% more efficient than PWM it's 10% and 12V panels are ill suited to our climate...I reckon I can do better because 36 cell strings are not necessary for 12volt systems in Ireland.
Let's look at the maths:
Required FLA Absorption Max @ 12V Nominal: 14.8V
Nominal Battery Temp: 15°C
FLA Cell Temperature Compensation Charge: 0.005v per cell per °C < 25°C
12V Battery Temp. Comp @ 15°C: 0.3V
PWM Controller Loss: 0.8V (*citation required)
Installation Voltage Drop: 2.3%
Target PV Voltage Open Circuit: (14.8 +0.3 + 0.8 ) + 2.3% = 16.27V
Generation:
Average Max Ambient Atmospheric Temp : 20°C
Giving PV Cell Temp: 50°C
Voc Temp Co-ef: -0.38% per °C > 25°C
Voc Derating @ Average TempMax (50°C Cell): 0.38% x 25= 9.5%
9.5% of 16.13v = 1.53v
Temperature Compensated PV Module Target Voc= 16.27 + 1.53v = 17.8v
Ideal 52°N Config
PV Module Voc @ 12V nominal: 18V (30 Cell)
PV Module Vm @ 12V nominal: 15V (30 Cell)
Standard Prescribed Panel
Vm @ 12V nominal: 18V (36 Cell)
Anyone still following? :pac:
Have a pic to cheer you up!
Cwaor..pretty...black on black. 265W!0 -
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Hrmm....new alternator pulley fitted. There's a squeak at 30A load...minor but the (5mm) shorter belt is too long. I'm gonna get another even shorter one.
Load tested to 50A.
Stock belt on stock pulley is 6pk 2000.
I'm gonna throw a 6pk 1990 at it...I know myself the belt was too easy to fit, the stock setup had more tension on it.
If that doesn't work I might split the difference on the pulley sizes although to be honest other than my observance of my system residing at a lower nominal SOC while Winter touring on the larger pulley (from previous tinkerings) I have no evidence to support I was reaching the limits of the output as much of the limits of the regulation sense.
Got myself a new-to-me compressor fridge for next to nothing, complete with the mains power supply...Stole it!
I'll be looking for at least twice that for mine when I sell in March.
Now is the time to buy yer solar panels, MorningStar controllers and camping goodies folks...no competition. First week in December all the good stuff comes on stream as people clear out the sheds to get rid of unloved items for beer tokens and Xmas funds.0 -
New plan MPPT:
I had a chat with the lovely and helpful people at MorningStar regarding my previous drawing and PWM.
It went much like this;
Sir Liamalot: "Hi lovely and helpful people at MorningStar please cast your eye over this drawing and tell me can I do this with MPPT or should I stick to PWM"
MorningStar Tech. Support: "You can't do that with PWM there will be smoke..., or MPPT but MPPT is better."
Sir Liamalot: "But I do do it with PWM and it works very well"
MorningStar Tech. Support:"That's highly not recommended it's not covered under warranty, it's just a solar charge controller"
Sir Liamalot: "Warranty smarranty, that's not what I asked..."
MorningStar Tech. Support: "You can feed PSUs into our MPPT units one at a time no problem, if you try to combine sources it may work it may not work at all, but don't do it with PWM because the FETs can't handle the PSU capacitance transients"
Sir Liamalot: "Interesting you say that because I do do that with PWM under the advise of a colleague of yours years back, and my FETs are fine"
MorningStar Tech. Support: "I can't recommended you do that with PWM but if you did which I don't advise keep the PSUs under half the rated full load of the controller and the voltage as close to the battery absorption as possible"
Sir Liamalot: That is what I have drawn. Will more snubber diodes make it better?
MorningStar Tech. Support: "Yes but it's still not recommended. Even though we do similar at our office every day with low power levels."
Sir Liamalot: Can I have some spare FETs pretty please? I can't get them on the open market.
MorningStar Tech. Support:That's because we bought all the FETs in the world, sorry no we need them.
Sir Liamalot: Will the MPPT be noisy?
MorningStar Tech. Support:Unlikely our MPPT controllers are rarely noisy. Can't say for certain.
Sir Liamalot: I have one, it's very noisy because my panel is 120VDC and my battery is 48VDC
MorningStar Tech. Support: Nobody else does that.
Sir Liamalot: Grand. Cheerio. Happy Halloween!
MorningStar Tech. Support: Happy Halloween! Come back and ask use anything you want any time.
Sir Liamalot: Sound!
I was hoping to go MPPT because I already have a controller being the solar gubbins hunting magpie that I am. My MPPT controller is wounded though (more about this later), the MPPT TriStar has input current limiting so you can oversize your arrays on it. I was angling to lose the SW84 and bung everything together and let the controller limit it's own input...but alas I've been advised to isolate each supply as it can cause issue with the tracking...or try a forced Vmp setpoint and see what happens.
For anyone late to the party the reason I want the TriStar doing everything is because no other charger can hold a candle to them and they are the secret sauce to battery immortality.
On the new draft I now have 2% voltage drop on my existing cables from the roof. I've reduced the actuator cabling (overspec-ed for mechanical resilience), I might regress later depending on what's in the scrap bin. Derated the actuator diodes, it was overkill, I'm going the pocket friendlier road. Added a Maxi-Blade Fuse on the B2B boosted line...cable size drop omission from previous.
I don't have to hack my new panel which would have cost extra in components and might bite me in the bottom down the line on high temperature derating.
I've changed the SW84 for a SW80 and added a SW61. I've a few reasons for all the industrial contactors, first and foremost is I can get them ex-service for the same price as new mickey mouse over-rated bosch relays. They have better (lower) contact resistance and stronger latching. They don't fail, inherent upgradability, and they have meaty terminals for my meaty cabling.
I'm not 100% sold on the linear actuator but it's probably going ahead. I might get real cheeky and power them from the solar module "instead of the battery" and get a remote....dunno...it's not that difficult run up extra cables...just time consuming.
....I should probably motorise the bed while I'm at it...hmmm..electric hoist....0 -
My Chinesium "gold plated" 150A ANL fuses arrived from Chinaland.
Shucks the quality of gold plated fuses, complete with holder you get for €2.50 ain't what it used to be.
Guess I'll just have to recuperate that 30mΩ on the cable I can fit around an M8 stud.0 -
My TS MPPT I bought a while back on Fleabay, some honest chap found it in his attic attached to some batteries he didn't know he had and decided to sell it as a MorningStart Controller, spares repairs because he didn't know about it's providence.
Funny thing is once I got it I pulled the data log and noticed he had a 20m² solar array attached to it he didn't notice either.
It was poorly because the twat probably isolated the battery with the array connected or some other form of friendly fire.
Anyways it cost me less than a PWM 45 and I nursed it back to health by amputating a dead FET that failed closed.
Replaced the resistor on a nearby operational FET I murdered in the surgery.
Derated it
& pressed it back into service.
It's been trickle charging my house battery using my grid tied pv array in the morning and night when the array was producing less than the GTI quiescent and running as an appliance. But I have a spare PWM 45 and 2 more 60 cell panels that I didn't tell yee about that were even cheaper than the camper one to fulfill this task in future.
It also means I can up-spec my house with the 45A controller in the motor, swapping it for the 37.5A MPPT which is a better appropriation of gizmo gadgets.
But before I do all that. I'll be putting the MPPT and PWM controllers on separate twin 60 cell panels and the same battery to the test to see if my maths stack and I can make PWM as efficient as MPPT with the right spec. or if I'm just talking shy... mistaken.0 -
Sigh...it's not been a good day for receiving electron speed parts.
My new drive belt arrived...5mm longer than I asked for. Two hours I spent sorting it out so they could order what I wanted. I fully expect them to have another wrong one for me in the morning.
-"Hi I ordered this belt from you...it's the wrong size!"
-"Our computer says it's the right size!"
-"Your computer is wrong!"
-"Let me check our computer, ok Sir here's the one you want"
-"Your computer is wrong, that's the same one I have it's too long."
-"What's your reg Sir?"
- "That's irrelevant it's customised, I'd like a 1990mm long drive belt please"
- "Ok how about this one!
- Same wrong belt you offered me two minutes ago for Gawd's sake just go eyeball your stock please!"
- "Let me put you through to our agent"
Lather, rinse, repeat x 3.
I'll phone them in the morning so they can verify they ordered the wrong belt again. :rolleyes:
My 20A adjustable PSU arrived. It had a rattle inside so I opened it up...well tbh I woulda opened it anyway but nevermind that.
Low and behold the board is slid into an extruded aluminium case and retained by the screws clamping the semi-conductors to the chassis as a heat sink. :rolleyes:
The rattle was a loose transformer core, that broke free of it's glue.
The nearest one to you.
I then noticed it must have suffered a serious impact because the rectifier was towing substantially so are the FETS..
Oh hey, my rectifier is cracked. Ah sher 'tis probably grand!
The cherry on top is the supplied 3A cable on a 20A PSU.
Now I can fix all this myself in 1 hour for less than €5...but customers aren't supposed to do things like this...so I'm gonna play dumb and I've opened a case on the off chance I get a concession of a free "broken" PSU from the ordeal.
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My boost regulators arrived also.
Now I coulda swore the listing pictured them with Nichicon electrolytic capacitors because I deliberately paid extra for them. What did I get? Chongs!
Ok well that's not what I paid for either so that'll be another case I'm opening.
(see the crushed ones?...)
I must find some way to hack these together prototype these and test them. If they work I'll build them into an enclosure with upgraded FETs, Inductor and electrolytics. The question is can they load the starting battery enough or will the lack of B1 sense defeat the endeavor?
If they do perform I'll be naming it the Zolotnik Battery to Boost. 0 -
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Evidence is it was launched alright. I've negotiated a reduced price if I fix it myself, nobody cared to mention the warranty implications.
I've also beefed up the traces, I'll post pics later.
I think the seller might get a shock when I explain to him my hourly rate and that he owes me money! :pac:
The rectifier is fine I've desoldered it and chucked it onto the semi-conductor horde, (5) new one(s) arriving tomorrow just cos it's not my dime.
Also have another broken traffo to epoxy, bent the sliding plate back into form & hot snotted all the low end caps together.
I'll add positive retention myself because I'll be mounting it vertically.
Same as the one currently installed in the motor with none...that's never had issue.
F[censored]-wits at the autoparts ordered me the wrong belt again this morning...4 times! 4 [*##£$4 * censored * /##!]-ing times.
Just spent 2 hours fighting an ammeter...I was about to calibrate it with a hammer...then I read the small print...wrong-shunt...d'oh.
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