The case for NOT supporting local business

25-10-2020 8:18am

listermint wrote: »

Now I know you are a spoofer. I thought this was economics not after Hours

Because they don’t agree with you? They make some very valid points and I find more and more people are coming around to the way they’re thinking.

Wanderer78 · 25-10-2020 8:19am

listermint wrote:

Now I know you are a spoofer. I thought this was economics not after Hours

They're also clearly looking forward to their future job with Amazon, I really can't wait for it, such a wealthy company, all of their employees must be so happy!

NIMAN · 25-10-2020 8:23am

Shopping local seems to be the mantra in RTE radio of late, every single programme is hammering us with it.

I will do my best to buy all my Xmas pressies this year from local suppliers if I can, but I do agree with a lot of comments here about many sellers' prices are very high for what they are providing.

I appreciate locally hand made items will come with a price premium, but some are just taking the p1s$. But they will fall on their own sword, as buyers aren't mugs any more and won't stand for being fleeced.

Wanderer78 · 25-10-2020 8:26am

NIMAN wrote:

I appreciate locally hand made items will come with a price premium, but some are just taking the p1s$. But they will fall on their own sword, as buyers aren't mugs any more and won't stand for being fleeced.

Its virtually impossible to compete against major monopoly such as amazon, we all know the situation regarding taxation of such behemoths, there's no fairness there at all

listermint · 25-10-2020 9:08am

ReginaldSmythV wrote: »

Because they don’t agree with you? They make some very valid points and I find more and more people are coming around to the way they’re thinking.

No because they just want Amazon jobs in everytown and nothing else. It's a ridiculous post with no point to be made. It's called winding up. Very common on the weekends oddly enough

lisasimpson · 25-10-2020 9:21am

Its all about balance in my opinion. A mixture of both. My husband is employed by a local business so more aware to buy local as all these businesses depend on each other.
As well as giving prizes for fundraising for local clubs, society and school a lot of small business and cafes are where we got out 1st parttime jobs for valuable work experience and helped finance our way through 3rd level.
I do agree with a previous poster in relation to the opening hours of business during the week. Pre covid many communite to larger urban centres so by the time your home the local butcher chemist etc is closed.open till 7 one evening mid week would make a huge difference as both parents now work full time and the traditional housewife isnt around to shop mid week.
Also people need to be v careful buying off Amazon. Channel 4 did a show the truth about Amazon. The amount of fakes on it and also childrens toys that dont have the CE safety mark on then.
As for people saying local businesses milking all the state supports wake up... insurence cost are massive, still have to pay electricity and heat, suppliers for stock need to paid. One thing I wish local irish businesses would stop doing is the freebies to "influnecers" who have no brandloyalty and give offers to normal plebs like you ans me who would more than likely be a return customer (spotlight teeth im looking at you as a perfect example)

tea and coffee · 25-10-2020 9:26am

I dont think its virtue signalling to say Buy Local. In a way, I'm doing it for selfish reasons. The main street is boarded up enough. If that continues it will just further drag the town down and all that comes with that. Is it virtue signalling not to want to live in a boarded up run down kip full of charity shops and bookies?

On Wed I took an hour off work to buy a few bits locally before they shut for 6 weeks. I'm not going to buy everything locally of course, I am as bargain savvy as the next person, but if everyone spent €50.... Again, I could say it's selfish. I want the small clothes place to survive. It's somewhere I can pop in and quickly find a top for a night out, and I can try it on. It might be a fiver more than Asos but I know it fits and I dont have to wait for postie.

Mrsmum · 25-10-2020 9:28am

Didn't read back so maybe this has been said and repeated but for me the main reason to support local business is that it is really horribly depressing to live in a boarded up town as opposed to one that is thriving.

Vestiapx · 25-10-2020 9:32am

unhappys10 wrote: »

This support Irish thing is usually a crock of sh1t.
Rip off Ireland puts anyone off who may want to buy local.

One example in my case. I wanted a pair of brand name boots. In the store here they were 160. I got the same pair on Amazon for 85 delivered. I could have just about gotten 2 pairs for what the Irish store wanted.

An extreme example but there are thousands of similar stories i'm sure.

I'll always go with the best deal. Got to look after number one.

Did you ask for them for 85 when you tried them on ?

Dempo1 · 25-10-2020 9:32am

JizzBeans wrote: »

During times of economic hardship and now during Covid, we hear things like "support local business" and "Buy Irish", etc. It does seem like the right thing to do, but when you think about it, it doesn't make that much sense.

For example, there are two local stores in my area, a men's clothing shop and a medium to large size department store. They both have been in the town 20+ years, well known places and folks would often say "its been there donkeys years" or "id be sad to see it go" etc. And have names like "Jims Menswear" (Not real name)

However, with the expansion of the town over the years, chains in shopping centers and the rise of online shopping, the last 10 years or so have not been kind to either store. It's painfully obvious how dated both stores are, overpriced, not keeping up with fashion, dilapidated storefronts etc.

In the men's store window,no lie, you will see an outfit like a Ben Sherman shirt and boot cut wrangular jeans pinned to a back board with wrangular shoes, like boys used to wear in school, sitting on the floor in front. In the department store you will see, loads of shelves with tacky ornaments and knick knacks. It does have several departments to be fair, garden, home-ware, cloths etc but poor variety in each and quite pricey. And this is just two examples of many similar business'. Every town has them food stores, clothing, hardware etc.

How does it make sense to shop in these depressing awful places? And why are we set upon with this unfair expectation of helping out a local business that is struggling. If a business cant survive then it should fold, it makes economic sense, its how good economies thrive.

Thoughts?

Interesting as I've been thinking they same thing. I genuinely tried during last lockdown and was beyond shocked at the prices in my local post office/grocery shop. I actually decided to do a cost analysis and it was just beyond belief the prices being charged locally. I can understand a profit margin but mother of God its outrageous. I don't mind mentioning its a gala store and its shameful the pricing. I estimate day to day items, milk, bread etc two times the price but go to tinned, cereals, Tea etc who probably now your into 3, 4 and in some cases 5 times the prices.

It got me wondering about eldery people living near the village who have little option but to shop local and I came to a conclusion these practices bordering on abuse.

I have a 19km drive to nearest large town, Lidl, Aldi, Dunnes etc. I'd break a 100km restriction to avoid shopping local.

As an aside, shopping local/ Irish online?, whomever came up with this needs to check how many Irish businesses actually understand even the basic concept of email. It's astonishing, Hardware,builder's providers, plumbing, Garden equipment the worst. Again, I desperately tried during the summer for a big job, not a single Irish company, 10 out of 10 responded to emails, quote requests etc. In the end I went the Northern Irish / UK ROUTE and not only was the responses immediate but I reckon, even allowing for delivery costs, I saved Monday. Embarrassing really that in 2020, Irish businesses just not with it when it comes to online trading.

the purple tin · 25-10-2020 9:43am

Kaybaykwah wrote: »

Talking Canada here, but mainly bigger chains versus small doesn't always equate with bigger/cheaper. There is a local chain of hardware stores (Canac) that is much smaller than the other players like Home Depot and they sell a lot of products at sometimes half the price of their competitors. I always stake them out before I buy anywhere else.

It's the same here. Woodies for instance are very dear for tools etc. Shop around the small local hardware shops and you can make a big saving and get expert advice too.
The average Woodies employee is a young student who would know very little about hardware.

lisasimpson · 25-10-2020 9:47am

Local hardwares are actually the worse in my opinion. My mother is fit to swing for a lazy bones in her local and shes not the 1st ive heard complain about him. But not all irish are the same. During 1st lockdown my sister in law and 2 close friends had babies so i made up little hampers. 1st company in Donegal i couldnt praise enough. Out of 1 thing i ordered.witiin 24 hrs of placing orders she was on the phone to me and whatsapping me pictures of similar items. Another in Mayo included a hand written note thanking me for my custom as its a company only a few years old. Its the likes of these I would encourage others to support. Also Cummins sport in Cork is another that do great customer service even on line and included little notes in packages during 1st lockdown.I dont think its fair to brand all irish retailers/business with the same brush. It takes a little time and patience to find the ones worth supporting and that appreciate your custom

Darc19 · 25-10-2020 9:50am

Ceepo wrote: »

Are amazon a good place to call on when the local sports club, school, town Hall etc etc are looking to raise some funds
I some how doubt it.

Usually people turn to local businesses for support. Great how that works.

My sister has a retail business and was asked by someone recently to donate items for a "feel good" package for teachers.

That same person left a derogatory remark on her Facebook page in the summer because some uk shop had one item cheaper.

She simply sent this person a screenshot of the comment and suggested that she contact the other retailer in the uk.

Karma.

the purple tin · 25-10-2020 9:54am

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Its virtually impossible to compete against major monopoly such as amazon, we all know the situation regarding taxation of such behemoths, there's no fairness there at all

Plus with crony capitalism if the massive company gets into trouble they can run to the govt cap in hand for a bailout or subsidies to prop them up.
If the local business gets in trouble it's 'sorry, that's capitalism for ya, survival of the fittest'.

25-10-2020 9:57am

I buy shoes reduced on line that are still 200/300 Euro..... From the factory often. No fooking way am I driving into Dublin to try and find them for 400+.

Most of my clothes I'll get in BT sale or Kildare Village..... Local menswear outlets are stocking awful stuff.

I shop in the local supervalue instead of Aldi or Lidl or Tesco as its a nice shop and the bottom line compares favourably.

Local restaurants, yes. Most definitely in the ones with good menus and settings etc.

Basically I shop local if the outlet is priced competitively with decent stuff that I want.

25-10-2020 10:00am

I'll pay a 10-15% premium for local for the convenience of getting it there and then, no hassle with size, fit, colour, feel, etc of product.
Local business tend to pump money directly back into local economy meaning that money stays in Ireland.
That money is paid to the state in tax, funding services.

Keep sending your money out of the country but don't complain when government jacks up income tax and cuts social funding.

Also, Amazon used to have stellar customer service and way cheaper than local. Now it's a fight to talk to someone, their delivery dates are longer (or you have to subscribe to prime), and their prices on common items seem targeted to just about undercut. Like all monopolies they are squeezing competition and then jacking price.

Dempo1 · 25-10-2020 10:04am

lisasimpson wrote: »

Local hardwares are actually the worse in my opinion. My mother is fit to swing for a lazy bones in her local and shes not the 1st ive heard complain about him. But not all irish are the same. During 1st lockdown my sister in law and 2 close friends had babies so i made up little hampers. 1st company in Donegal i couldnt praise enough. Out of 1 thing i ordered.witiin 24 hrs of placing orders she was on the phone to me and whatsapping me pictures of similar items. Another in Mayo included a hand written note thanking me for my custom. Its the likes of these I would encourage others to support. Also Cummins sport in Cork is another that do great customer service even on line. I dont think its fair to brand all irish retailers/business with the same brush. It takes a little time and patience to find the ones worth supporting

Couldn't agree more, I use Country life (Glanbia) and it astounds me they claim to be online retailer of the year, its a farce and some branches still operating in the dark ages.

They have a network of outlets, mostly enormous buildings and yet, most seem empty of stock. It's a real shame as some great prices and deals if the products were actually available.

I was actually shocked to learn some branches still close for lunch (2020?) and more bizzarely close for monthly stock takes how backward is that.

During the level 3 Midlands lockdown, my local branch put tables in front of all entrances, basically restricting all access, despite being an alkedged essential store (as it happens there was no defined closure orders back then so what they were playing at I'll never no).

This company has a golden opportunity to succeed and compete with woodies who specialise in gouging, just extraordinary that whomever is in charge at countrylife is not seeing something seriously wrong with its retail approach.

Treppen · 25-10-2020 10:30am

I'm surprised for an economics thread nobody mentioned the multiplier effect .
For multinationals like Starbucks or Tesco's, the money gets abroad quickly, so it's like we are donating to a foreign country or business. If you put the money in Irish it circulates around the town for a little bit longer.
The whole "Tesco provides jobs" is a bit of a red herring. As they grow, the economies of scale means they lean down, so their butchers could close down a few local butchers , they will also initially come in cheaper but once they've killed off the competition they're free to Jack up the prices. Just look at meat and milk prices, were basically subsidising Tesco's Lidl Aldi at the end of the day through EU and Irish grants. Money goes abroad.

Stuff like farmers markets I never really got though and rarely ever saw a farmer selling at them. The stuff is always crazy prices, the Apple juice thing is case in point, but hey you charge what the market will bare. There's folk happy to pay it.

A lot of Irish companies need to get with the times by offering new services goods and exploiting online. The Brennan Brothers showed that perfectly and were ahead of their time, they advised pubs and hostels and to go into food, lodgings and diversify in every way that they can. Now that Covid has hit the wet pubs were the first to go.

Vieira82 · 25-10-2020 10:35am

Ireland has plenty of artisans and crafters. Really good talented people with very small businesses. Most of them do not have a shop even, they have their stock in craft shops or do craft markets and events to put their goods out there.

This is what it means to shop local and shop irish. To support small businesses. It does not mean you have to like everything they sell but at least try to before you go to big retailers.

Keep in mind going for the cheapest option is not good either. There is always a fair price for anything. IF you are buying something at a very cheap price it means that if you're not paying for it someone else is. Either the employees in the company or whoever made the product is working under sweat shop conditions.

It's very easy to understand this, If you buy a "leather" wallet from pennys for 1€ that was 100% done using slave labour, without any kind of rights of the worker respected. If you buy a leather wallet handmade by a local Irish leatherworker for 45€ that person still has to pay with that price:

- Pay the rent/mortgage
- Bills
- If he owns a vehicle to distribute goods in shops, insurance, cost of petrol
- Cost of the Raw Materials
- Cost making the item

If you buy from a local leather shop, like the one in Cork that is a third generation leather shop, for 45€ you are supporting someone that has too:

- Pay for the premises himself (not part of a big chain with thousands of euros)
- Insurance
- Utility Bills of the premises
- Cost of Raw Materials
- Cost of making the product

If he needs an employee to manage the shop while he's making the wallet:
- Wage for that employee, including the legal tax and prsi contributions

Now what happens when you buy in a big chain:

- Terribly underpriced product meaning you are not buying at it's real cost, but at a exploitation cost.

Who gets exploited?

Abroad:
- The employee in a third world country working overtime in crumbling buildings, some women having their babies sleeping under the desk they work 12 to 17 hours a day.
- Absolute zero worker protection laws
- Products not made under Irish or European Laws, meaning many times materials and chemicals that are forbidden in Europe are used in the making of these items

In Ireland:

- The employees of said chains are always underpaid and some premises understaffed
- As with many big chains, employees are subjected to insane micro management and are always at the bottom in terms of any workers rights
- One year with bad profits and the head office will close a number of premises leaving a number of employees jobless. As they employ so many at the same time it becomes a huge pressure on social services and hard for hundreds of people to find a job at the same time
- Chain never cares for employees rights and will always try to circumvent the law, money more important than the welfare of employees or the worker in the third world country. Clear example of this in Debenhams closing recently.
- Big chains never pay on time to their suppliers, sometimes they let the supplier hang for months after the supplier already delivered thousands of euros worth of goods, this is why many local artisans do not work with big chains because they often don't pay literally leaving small crafters on the brink of bankrupcy. They will order thousands of euros worth of goods, ask for an insane discount for it, and then ask for a three month payment plan. For a small business having such an order can be the make it or break it, many go for this and then are left for months on end without payment, stressing out as all the above mentioned bills don't pay themselves alone.

I suggest watching The True Cost to understand what happens when you buy from big chains including big online chains:

https://youtu.be/OaGp5_Sfbss

road_high · 25-10-2020 10:39am

It’s true OP, a lot of small businesses do not help themselves

enricoh · 25-10-2020 10:47am

For the people complaining about no response to emails in the summer, I agree its bad to not get a response.
However anything to do with gardens, home improvements etc were bananas after lockdown lifted, literally snowed under. Shops couldn't get supplies do to corona hammering the supply chain.
If I want something badly I call to the shop, if I can't call I ring and in a very distant third I email.

road_high · 25-10-2020 10:49am

One thing I noticed when shops reopened after lockdown many actually reduced opening hours rather than extending them to maximise sales opps- most are family run so they’d only be paying heir own wages- lot of them still have a pretty inflexible attitude outside of the food and convenience food sectors.

Wanderer78 · 25-10-2020 10:51am

road_high wrote: »

It’s true OP, a lot of small businesses do not help themselves

again, how can you help yourself, if the game is rigged towards monopoly power?

road_high · 25-10-2020 11:03am

(Some) Small local menswear shops really are the pits. I can just visualise the sun faded window display in a dreary midlands town selling check shirts and ill fitting wrangler jeans from 20 years ago style.
That being said there are some excellent ones like Galvins of Tullamore that keep up with the fashions and up to date stores and online

25-10-2020 11:07am

Vieira82 wrote: »

I.......

Keep in mind going for the cheapest option is not good either. There is always a fair price for anything. IF you are buying something at a very cheap price it means that if you're not paying for it someone else is. Either the employees in the company or whoever made the product is working under sweat shop conditions.

It's very easy to understand this, If you buy a "leather" wallet from pennys for 1€ that was 100% done using slave labour, without any kind of rights of the worker respected. If you buy a leather wallet handmade by a local Irish leatherworker for 45€ that person still has to pay with that price:

.....

.......]

That's an extreme example.

Look at glenisk high protein Greek yoghurt.... Irish product..... €3rrp for 500g tub.

SuperValue high protein Greek yoghurt made by glenisk (small piece of detective work, glenisk not named on pack) ... 75% of protein..... 30% of the price.

Same manufacturer and they are in the same fridge in my local family owned SuperValu.

How is going for that cheap option not good?. The folk buying the irfu official yoghurt are subsidising my breakfast :pac:

growleaves · 25-10-2020 11:08am

What an odd time for such a thread - when almost every small business in the country is being squeezed to death.

I'll buy online if the difference in price is extreme or I can't get what I want locally but not otherwise. The point about overpaying is perfectly understandable.

But people ought to be discerning where it comes down to a choice between a business run by someone like you with common interests or a corporate behemoth that would be happy to see you in modern slavery.

The future may be everyone working in warehouses for scab wages and never being able to overcome debt and poverty.

I'm guessing that if the mass of people who have been disemployed and bankrupted by the current obsession with abstract 'healthism' are put on UBI they will be subject to strict bureaucratic controls. How different from the independent life of a small business owner.

Treppen · 25-10-2020 11:10am

Wanderer78 wrote: »

again, how can you help yourself, if the game is rigged towards monopoly power?

I don't think he was talking absolutes. He meant it in terms of "do themselves no favours". The game isn't necessarily rigged towards monopoly as there are local businesses who thrives given the right market conditions (service providers etc).

I'd agree with the poster who mentioned €1 wallets in pennies. I got a present of a leather wallet made by a friend 20 years ago and it's still in top condition with zero change in stitching and shape (despite being accidentally in swimming pool and sea water!!). He sold them for about €45 at a stall. I had a few friends admire them and ask if I could get one for them, if he had an online shop I think he would have been able to keep going.

storker · 25-10-2020 11:12am

I don't mind paying a little over the odds either for the convenience of buying local, and getting local after-sales service if you need it, and to support the local businesses. I'll always at least have a look at what's available locally before going to the big boys. Living an hour from Dublin means that if heading towards town to buy something from one of the big chains you can add the cost of fuel, often parking, and the inevitable coffees or lunch and it can mean half a day written off, whereas you can make your purchase in 30 minutes near home and use the rest of the afternoon to do something else, and you've helped the environment too.

Of course this only works if there is a suitable local supplier and if the price isn't a complete rip-off. Our local bookshop does this well. If you send them the details of a book they'll get back to you quickly and with price and lead time and all you need to do is say yes you want it. Payment is on delivery. I do still occasionally get stuff from Amazon, but with the way they treat their staff they could never be my go-to vendor.

Also, just because a vendor is local doesn't mean they're charging over the odds. Some years ago I was buying a camera, did all my research and decided what I wanted, and before pulling the trigger I decided to check locally on the off-chance and found a local pharmacy selling that exact model for less than everyone else.

road_high · 25-10-2020 11:14am

I dont do much online personally- don’t find it a whole lot cheaper (Penney’s ftw) and I tend to buy branded clothes in the sales if I can. I’m much more likely to go to Dublin during the sales and get what I want there. Kildare village is pretty good too and get things you wouldn’t get in local shops (example small Samsonsite travel case I wanted)

Darc19 · 25-10-2020 11:14am

Treppen wrote: »

I'm surprised for an economics thread nobody mentioned the multiplier effect .
For multinationals like Starbucks or Tesco's, the money gets abroad quickly, so it's like we are donating to a foreign country or business. If you put the money in Irish it circulates around the town for a little bit longer.
The whole "Tesco provides jobs" is a bit of a red herring. .

It's not as simple as that.

Tesco is a classic example.

They buy over €300m of irish products for their UK stores every year. Having an operation here can pinpoint some items that will sell well in the uk.

Then you look at the beneficial owners

Tesco = pension funds = hundreds of thousands of people

Dunnes = one ultra rich family.

The case for NOT supporting local business

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