Minimum Alcohol pricing to be signed into Law

BuilderPlumber · 25-10-2013 2:00pm

BeerNut wrote: »

First they came for the cheap piss and I did not speak up because I don't drink cheap piss.

This is the Public Health (Alcohol) Bill. The title follows the pattern of the Public Health (Tobacco) Act 2002 which included the smoking ban and a host of other restrictions. The Department of Health said yesterday "this is a landmark day. It is the first time alcohol misuse has been addressed as a public health issue", so this represents a major shift in government policy regarding alcohol: it is no longer a substance which merely has to be controlled; it is a danger to public health, and the people who use it must be treated the same way as smokers.

Yes, this is very true. I said before that healthocracy is the Western answer to Talibanistic religion. Like the Taliban and other regimes like Saudi Arabia use their poor interpretations of the Koran's teachings to ban alcohol, restrict women and equate pork with Satan, our healthocrats use spuriously correlated research to justify restrictions that allow for tax increases and controlling behaviour that is no different to our supposedly backward Middle Eastern friends.

The smoking ban was a major blow to social freedom in Ireland and although I am not a smoker and do not miss smoky environments, the way it was implemented was exactly like the Taliban. Fags were the obvious choice but now the list is endless of what is targeted: alcohol (other than red wine I presume which is supposed to be GOOD for you!!), sugar, sugary drinks, fast food, fried food, fizzy drinks, red meat, etc, etc. Next, they'll tell us vegetables are bad for us!!!!! It is truly sickening brainwashing. Just equate a food with cancer (even if there is no link or spurious research based link) will be enough to stop 2/3rds of people from eating it!!

reprazant · 25-10-2013 2:09pm

Holy hyperbole Batman!

Technocentral · 26-10-2013 8:28pm

syklops wrote: »

You again.

Et tu, Brute?

Blisterman · 03-11-2013 4:25pm

Anyone who thinks this will only affect the cheapest alcohol is misguided. Think about it. Companies use price as a way of differentiating between what's perceived as low quality and high quality.

You put in minimum pricing, so that for example, a bottle of Tesco value Whiskey costs the same as Jameson does now, are Tesco going to sell their value Whiskey and Jameson at the same price?

No they're going to knock every price tier upwards, to maintain the distinction of different bands of quality.

rubadub · 03-11-2013 5:19pm

Blisterman wrote: »

No they're going to knock every price tier upwards, to maintain the distinction of different bands of quality.

It would be interesting to see what happens, if tesco did increase them then another shop can undercut them and still get the same profit they were used to. So unless they all copy each other it won't happen. Of course the manufacturers themselves could just up the wholesale price.

I can see them just dropping the cheapest of the cheap altogether, I think tesco have 3 vodkas, value, normal, finest, so might just drop the value one.

BMJD · 03-11-2013 7:37pm

still though, I can't wait for the streets to be clean and safe again

goose2005 · 06-11-2013 10:48pm

BeerNut wrote: »

First they came for the cheap piss and I did not speak up because I don't drink cheap piss.

This is the Public Health (Alcohol) Bill. The title follows the pattern of the Public Health (Tobacco) Act 2002 which included the smoking ban and a host of other restrictions. The Department of Health said yesterday "this is a landmark day. It is the first time alcohol misuse has been addressed as a public health issue", so this represents a major shift in government policy regarding alcohol: it is no longer a substance which merely has to be controlled; it is a danger to public health, and the people who use it must be treated the same way as smokers.

I'm sure as we speak someone is drafting the Public Health (Red Meat) Bil and the Public Health (Sugar) Bill.

cruhoortwunk · 04-02-2015 2:16pm

Will the minimum pricing affect craft beers? Eg. if cans of píss are increased to €1.80 each, how will it affect a 330ml bottle of craft ale?

BaZmO* · 04-02-2015 2:41pm

cruhoortwunk wrote: »

Will the minimum pricing affect craft beers? Eg. if cans of píss are increased to €1.80 each, how will it affect a 330ml bottle of craft ale?

No. It's a minimum price increase, so if what you're buying is above the threshold it won't be affected. Most craft beers are above the threshold.

gandalf · 04-02-2015 3:02pm

BaZmO* wrote: »

No. It's a minimum price increase, so if what you're buying is above the threshold it won't be affected. Most craft beers are above the threshold.

I think peoples fear is that the retailers will be tempted to gouge because of the minimum price and given our experience in this country then I think this is a distinct possibility.

BaZmO* · 04-02-2015 3:10pm

gandalf wrote: »

I think peoples fear is that the retailers will be tempted to gouge because of the minimum price and given our experience in this country then I think this is a distinct possibility.

And I'd say that fear is not without reason, but that's when consumers need to vote with their feet if they see that happening. However, this measure is supposed to stop big supermarkets from selling loss leaders so I don't see how it'd be in their interest (or in the interest of independent off licences) to start increasing their prices when the competition's prices have been brought closer to theirs.

rubadub · 04-02-2015 3:21pm

cruhoortwunk wrote: »

Will the minimum pricing affect craft beers? Eg. if cans of píss are increased to €1.80 each, how will it affect a 330ml bottle of craft ale?

This poster predicted an increase.

Blisterman wrote: »

Anyone who thinks this will only affect the cheapest alcohol is misguided. Think about it. Companies use price as a way of differentiating between what's perceived as low quality and high quality.

You put in minimum pricing, so that for example, a bottle of Tesco value Whiskey costs the same as Jameson does now, are Tesco going to sell their value Whiskey and Jameson at the same price?

No they're going to knock every price tier upwards, to maintain the distinction of different bands of quality.

I am not sure what to expect, I predict weird goings on. If it is €2.20 a can I expect there will be nobody stocking cheapo beers, like lidl would not have their cheapest of the cheap anymore, as I expect there would be no demand.

This is unfair on cheap beer producers. I was saying in another thread if they had a minimum price on cars of €100,000 it would be a disaster for companies geared up for producing low cost cars, as who would buy a cheapo car if a high end BMW was the same, or high end car with low running costs.

Higher price beers may drop in price, a beer at €2.60 will still be bought by its previous loyal fan base, but others might switch to it or try it. e.g. if budvar is €2.60 now it might drop in price since I expect many would turn to it and so it may get increases in sales. I pick budvar as I reckon most people drinking cheaper lagers would prefer it to craft beers which may have quite a different taste.

Personally I usually drink any old muck at home, but in pubs go for better ones. My reasoning is that I am not that fussy and do not not value 1 beer as being worth 2.6 times the price of another (as it is in offlicences). -However in the pub it is usually only a small % more or few cent for a decent beer over the run of the mill piss they sell. So if I am forced to pay a minimum of €2.20 I will no longer drink the (previously) cheaper ones, it will only be maybe 30cent more for a decent one.

I expect some offies might introduce loophole freebies or something.

Offies in remote areas could clean up if they wanted, just remain stocking cheapo beers and actually take the expensive ones off the shelf, leaving people with no choice unless they want to travel elsewhere. So they would be creaming in the extra profit. -Remember this suggestion is NOT an increase in excise, the only extra the government will seemingly get is the VAT.

So if a can is currently €1, this is a ex-vat selling price of 81cent, and vat of 19cent, and the government get excise.

If the can goes to €2.20, the ex-vat selling price is €1.79 and vat of 41cent, excise is the same. So the government get 22cent more, while the offie get 98cent more

BaZmO* wrote: »

However, this measure is supposed to stop big supermarkets from selling loss leaders

I have seen no evidence of the widespread below cost selling that publicans claim goes on. In the uk they did investigate and found only 3-5 beers being sold below cost in several supermarkets. and these were obscure non-mainstream beers. Its in the deceitful publicans interest to have the gullible public believe it is rife, so they get sympathy. Whenever the issue comes up I point to the centra near me which had 20x330ml heineken for €15 as a very common offer, they do not fit the model of below cost selling which is intended to recoup losses when people do their weekly shop at the same time.

Padraig Mor · 04-02-2015 3:29pm

gandalf wrote: »

I think peoples fear is that the retailers will be tempted to gouge because of the minimum price and given our experience in this country then I think this is a distinct possibility.

There's been enough discussion on this page to make clear that our craft producers (GBB etc) are more than happy to apply 'premium' pricing, whatever the rights and wrongs of that may be. I don't think it's just the retailers we need to be worried about.

BaZmO* wrote: »

. However, this measure is supposed to stop big supermarkets from selling loss leaders so I don't see how it'd be in their interest (or in the interest of independent off licences) to start increasing their prices when the competition's prices have been brought closer to theirs.

My understanding is that, despite popular perception, supermarkets etc very rarely sell alcohol below cost and that the hit is taken by the distributor - hence the introduction (on behalf of the vintners) of minimum alcohol pricing, rather than a ban on below cost selling.

BeerNut · 04-02-2015 3:54pm

A bit of statistical analysis here shows that the government's proposed 2020 target will be reached anyway, without any of these new restrictions.

Geuze · 04-02-2015 4:36pm

rubadub wrote: »

True, cheapest cans were £1, €1.27. In another thread someone was saying the duty on beer has not really gone up since 1994.

BUT the fact is we still have one of the highest excise duty rates here. So instead of saying its much cheaper now, you could turn it around and say we were being totally screwed 20 years ago.

See table EX4 here:

http://www.revenue.ie/en/about/publications/statistical/2012/excise.pdf

YES, excise flat for several years 2002-2009, then CUT by 10 c per pint, then raised later.

listermint · 04-02-2015 5:47pm

This whole notion just looks like its going to be poor for consumers across the board. As others have stated I can see the 'rising tide lifts all boats' mentality. This is Ireland afterall , we will and do be taken for a ride.

Im thoroughly against this notion tbh, i think its ill conceived and has a very narrow objective.

odyssey06 · 04-02-2015 7:44pm

If the theory that higher alcohol = less consumption was true, we wouldn't need minimum alcohol pricing as we already have one of the highest prices for alcohol in EU combined with one of the highest consumption rates.

There's already a court case at EU level which could block this.

Failing that, I think the North\Dept of Finance will come to the rescue here as the loss of revenue if prices in North are much less than here will be significant. And I can't see the North signing up to a minimum alcohol pricing scheme that matches the 90c+ being talked about here.

Markcheese · 04-02-2015 9:22pm

cruhoortwunk wrote: »

Will the minimum pricing affect craft beers? Eg. if cans of píss are increased to €1.80 each, how will it affect a 330ml bottle of craft ale?

Not directly ! But if the mass market stuff is now making the off licence and distributors and breweries handy money they'll be less inclined to stock or push the good stuff .... Although all the really cheap beer offers were for cases of 15 or 20 .

gandalf · 04-02-2015 10:14pm

BaZmO* wrote: »

And I'd say that fear is not without reason, but that's when consumers need to vote with their feet if they see that happening. However, this measure is supposed to stop big supermarkets from selling loss leaders so I don't see how it'd be in their interest (or in the interest of independent off licences) to start increasing their prices when the competition's prices have been brought closer to theirs.

Well tbh I am not effected as I don't drink entry level products any more. I am a Whiskey drinker and I hope this isn't used to up the price of the products that I do purchase here. Given all the duty increases over the last few years my drink of choice is already too expensive and I would be really pissed off if this is used as an excuse to try to gouge more profits.

Because me and my family go to France at least twice a year I don't buy wine here any more. Why would I spend €7 on a wine that in France would cost €2 - €3. For €5 - €7 I can buy a wine that would cost at least €15 here.

I understand why they are trying to do this, we as a nation have a problem with drink but just using price to try and change our relationship with alcohol is wrong. There needs to be an attempt to change the way our younger people socialise. They need to change the focus on drink and getting drunk being the reason you go out.

I can see the shops in Newry having a bumper year once this is passed.

listermint · 04-02-2015 10:36pm

gandalf wrote: »

Well tbh I am not effected as I don't drink entry level products any more. I am a Whiskey drinker and I hope this isn't used to up the price of the products that I do purchase here. Given all the duty increases over the last few years my drink of choice is already too expensive and I would be really pissed off if this is used as an excuse to try to gouge more profits.

Because me and my family go to France at least twice a year I don't buy wine here any more. Why would I spend €7 on a wine that in France would cost €2 - €3. For €5 - €7 I can buy a wine that would cost at least €15 here.

I understand why they are trying to do this, we as a nation have a problem with drink but just using price to try and change our relationship with alcohol is wrong. There needs to be an attempt to change the way our younger people socialise. They need to change the focus on drink and getting drunk being the reason you go out.

I can see the shops in Newry having a bumper year once this is passed.

On the Contrary alcohol consumption is decreasing in ireland and had done so starkly in the last ten years.

There isn't a whole lot of evidence to promote this vanity project by Leo.

Needs to start dealing with actual issues such a as long term beds being taken up with elderly care. Services being badly used and emphasis on gp care over accident and emergency.

Alcohol pricing is a falicy.

Gloomtastic! · 04-02-2015 10:43pm

I wonder will we see any statistics relating to our improved drinking behaviour since they restricted off licence opening hours a few years ago. Wasn't that meant to make us change our ways as well? (And definitely not just another sop to the pub lobby!)

gandalf · 05-02-2015 1:02am

listermint wrote: »

On the Contrary alcohol consumption is decreasing in ireland and had done so starkly in the last ten years.

There isn't a whole lot of evidence to promote this vanity project by Leo.

Needs to start dealing with actual issues such a as long term beds being taken up with elderly care. Services being badly used and emphasis on gp care over accident and emergency.

Alcohol pricing is a falicy.

Consumption may be decreasing but from a Health Service perspective drink abuse is still a major drain on resources.

Granted the first priority they should have is to move the "bed blockers" onto more appropriate care and allow the resources be freed up in a trickle down effect but that's a discussion for politics and not here.

BTW I don't believe this idea was originally Leo's I believe he has just picked the ball up from Roisin Shortall?

listermint · 05-02-2015 1:05am

gandalf wrote: »

Consumption may be decreasing but from a Health Service perspective drink abuse is still a major drain on resources.

Granted the first priority they should have is to move the "bed blockers" onto more appropriate care and allow the resources be freed up in a trickle down effect but that's a discussion for politics and not here.

BTW I don't believe this idea was originally Leo's I believe he has just picked the ball up from Roisin Shortall?

I don't care whos idea it was it's idiotic. Someone posted this elsewhere but I think it's quite apt. And no our consumption and so called problem drinking is down year on year for the past five years.

Problem drinkers and alcoholics have very inelastic demand, as you would expect. For example, this study on problem drinkers (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19149811) states problem drinkers have a "mean reported elasticity = -0.28" towards alcohol, meaning a 100% increase in the price of drinks would reduce their consumption by only 28%. So it doesn't address that problem.

They are aiming there TD willy wands in the wrong direction and yes I think it is a Leo vanity project.

gandalf · 05-02-2015 1:10am

listermint wrote: »

They are aiming there TD willy wands in the wrong direction and yes I think it is a Leo vanity project.

Oh I agree with you. Using pricing to achieve anything is a very blunt instrument indeed.

I think it's seen as low hanging fruit with the bonus of appeasing the publicans as well who have a very strong lobby and a lot of TD's are very closely connected with the industry as well.

BuilderPlumber · 05-02-2015 1:05pm

This is more Vintners lobbying paying off and also another excuse to raise tax. Many grassroots politicians are publicans and the usual excuse of cheap drink from supermarkets getting into the uncontrolled home environment and then causing every problem from domestic abuse to absenteeism at work are paraded out. The pub on the other hand is a controlled environment with .. ahem .. more expensive prices. Home drinking has killed this trade and the aim is to have pubs cheaper than supermarkets for drinks in the future.

squonk · 05-02-2015 1:50pm

To be honest I can't see this working. As was said earlier, there needs to be a culture change and more alternative socialising options offered for those who want them. We had a case a few years ago where Micky Martin wanted to enable cafe bars. Unsurprisingly the usual chorus rose up in objection. Not being a great fan of FF, I still have to stand back and recognise that what he wanted to implement was a good thing.

There are too many cases in this country where the only social outlet after 6 PM is the local pub. There are plenty of times I want to go out but don't want to sit in some dreary pub watching Sky showing some sport I've no interest in. Given the alternative I'd hapilly visit a cafe or go somewhere comfortably for a glass of wine. Right now my main alternative is to stay home with a movie and a craft beer. I've no issue with that. I've invested a nice sum in my sound system and TV and environment in general and I don't drink every night of the week so when I do I want to enjoy it.

Currently my cheapest option is a local pub selling Beamish for €3.70 a pint. For that I could get a Leann Folláin 500ml and have some change left over. I'm not knocking Beamish, it's a fine drink but it's no LF.

Younger people are going to abuse substances of all kinds. It's part of being young. Sadly some will fall into dependency on those substances.

I resent that, while I'm already being charged and taxed to the hilt by this government, I'm also now being hit with increased prices for they types of alcoholic beverages that I wish to drink. I don't abuse alcohol yet I'm being penalised for elements of society who do. Furthermore, once this idiocy passes into law its efficacy will be derrogated by a mass migration to NI where cheaper prices can be found. I'd worry also about those who the measure really is aimed at, I'd imagine students and younger people, might resort to home brewing which, let's be fair, is far worse from a health perspective when it goes wrong.

At the end of the day, I respect the right of publicans to make a living. However many are not moving with the times. They remind me of the record industry 10-15 years ago. Head in the sand, trying all the things they can think of to stop online distribution yet eventually having to be dragged to the party kicking and screaming. It's the same here. Instead of offering growlers, decent beer and decent prices, most are falling back on the old tired model that will ultimately send them to their graves in a business sense.

gandalf · 05-02-2015 2:26pm

squonk wrote: »

To be honest I can't see this working. As was said earlier, there needs to be a culture change and more alternative socialising options offered for those who want them. We had a case a few years ago where Micky Martin wanted to enable cafe bars. Unsurprisingly the usual chorus rose up in objection. Not being a great fan of FF, I still have to stand back and recognise that what he wanted to implement was a good thing.

Wasn't that Michael McDowell of the PD's initiative that was shot down by the vested interests in FF?

There are too many cases in this country where the only social outlet after 6 PM is the local pub. There are plenty of times I want to go out but don't want to sit in some dreary pub watching Sky showing some sport I've no interest in. Given the alternative I'd hapilly visit a cafe or go somewhere comfortably for a glass of wine. Right now my main alternative is to stay home with a movie and a craft beer. I've no issue with that. I've invested a nice sum in my sound system and TV and environment in general and I don't drink every night of the week so when I do I want to enjoy it.

Yep totally and it was a shame that the whole Cafe Society thing didn't catch on.

Currently my cheapest option is a local pub selling Beamish for €3.70 a pint. For that I could get a Leann Folláin 500ml and have some change left over. I'm not knocking Beamish, it's a fine drink but it's no LF.

I would love to see Pubs on the whole supporting the myriad of local craft brewers that are popping up around the country but like I say below far too many of them are quite conservative and serve the mainstream swill.

Younger people are going to abuse substances of all kinds. It's part of being young. Sadly some will fall into dependency on those substances.

I'd disagree to a degree here. I think what young people primarily want is to mix with other young people. Unfortunately here in Ireland the only real option for that is the pub.

I resent that, while I'm already being charged and taxed to the hilt by this government, I'm also now being hit with increased prices for they types of alcoholic beverages that I wish to drink. I don't abuse alcohol yet I'm being penalised for elements of society who do. Furthermore, once this idiocy passes into law its efficacy will be derrogated by a mass migration to NI where cheaper prices can be found. I'd worry also about those who the measure really is aimed at, I'd imagine students and younger people, might resort to home brewing which, let's be fair, is far worse from a health perspective when it goes wrong.

Yep to be honest the Government as usual lack imagination and rely on the blunt and trusted instrument of increasing the prices.

As you say students will probably resort to brewing their own beverages and then you'll find the government targeting brew kits next. It wouldn't surprise me if they didn't try and target them with this current legislation in some way as well.

At the end of the day, I respect the right of publicans to make a living. However many are not moving with the times. They remind me of the record industry 10-15 years ago. Head in the sand, trying all the things they can think of to stop online distribution yet eventually having to be dragged to the party kicking and screaming. It's the same here. Instead of offering growlers, decent beer and decent prices, most are falling back on the old tired model that will ultimately send them to their graves in a business sense.

The publicans in Ireland strike me as a very conservative bunch and a group that have far too much say in local life and in political circles.

ec18 · 05-02-2015 3:15pm

Just a question, will this affect drink that is not at minimum prices, like for example is the price of a forty euro bottle of whiskey going to increase or will it stay the same as it's not being sold below cost?

jobbridge4life · 05-02-2015 3:19pm

ec18 wrote: »

Just a question, will this affect drink that is not at minimum prices, like for example is the price of a forty euro bottle of whiskey going to increase or will it stay the same as it's not being sold below cost?

So long as any alcoholic drink exceeds the minimum unit price for the units it contains then they are under no obligation to increase their prices. However in reality the MUP will now be the floor, the new zero. Gradually (if not immediately) all prices will rise accordingly.

BaZmO* · 05-02-2015 4:50pm

squonk wrote: »

.....I'd imagine students and younger people, might resort to home brewing which, let's be fair, is far worse from a health perspective when it goes wrong.

How so?

Minimum Alcohol pricing to be signed into Law

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