Poppy

zapitastas · 19-10-2018 8:59pm

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

More a case of behaving as a mature country, putting aside the hate and conflicts of the past, and through our shared history, commemorate those who made the ultimate sacrifice.
The poppy is a great symbol of this progress in these more enlightened and cooperative times.

A diabolical shared history .

As for this ultimate sacrifice rubbish, a generation of young men slaughtered and disfigured in war games.

Edgware · 19-10-2018 9:03pm

Ragnar Lothbrok wrote: »

None whatsoever. Why would I? I supported one side in an armed conflict, and therefore do not believe that the opposing side should be supported. How is that ironic?

The bombing of Birmingham was a great Republicanv victory in your eyes so. Maybe the Wolfe Tones will write along about it

BalcombeSt4 · 19-10-2018 9:44pm

Aegir wrote: »

So you have no issue with a poster naming themselves after cold blooded murdering scum bags?

Ok.

Like B-Specials throwing bombs on to top of school children in a playground & then finishing them of with gunfire. https://treasonfelony.wordpress.com/2016/02/04/the-weaver-street-bombing-and-not-dealing-with-the-past/ That's like something the Nazi's would have done.

The Provo's, INLA & Sticks did a lot of scumbag things, but I don't remember them targeting school children who were playing in a playground.
After the Reavey/O'Dowd & Kingsmill massacres in 1976 the UVF drew up plans to blow up a Catholic primary school & to kill 30 children, but called it of at the last minute because they were afraid of the backlash & security forces stamping down on them, because before that the police & army let them do whatever they liked. - http://www.nuzhound.com/articles/irish_news/arts2007/jul9_UVF_planned_kill_30_children.php

Intentionally targeting school children has been a feature of loyalist scumbagery over the years. During the Holy Cross dispute they targeted little girls with graphic insults, stones, balloons filled with urine, pipe bombs & rifle fire. Yes, the pictures that flashed across the world were horrific but this was pretty much a weekly occurence for the great loyalist "culture". - https://www.irishtimes.com/news/school-considers-legal-action-over-protests-1.331363

The UDA tried to kill Catholic women & children on a bus during the height of Mad Dog Adairs sectarian madness

Well I could be here all day doing this.

Point is I could pick out any war or conflict over the last century and I could find "cold blooded murder" all over it, war is cold blooded murder. Of the top of my head American soldiers massacred over 600 old men, women & children at Mi Lai & burned the village to the ground.
And that's not a feature specific to the US Army, it's just a plain cold feature of war.

And I'm not a die hard Republican either. (not that it's anyones business anyway)
I think it would have been a much better idea if SF & the IRA had taken a back seat during the "War of Independence" & the Labour movement had taken control & encouraged the Catholic & Protestant working class to unite & supported actions like the 1919 Belfast general strike, the workers taking over of mills, factories, fisheries, lands of absentee landlords and encourgaed the setting up of more Soviets along with Limerick & Arigna Mines. Working class unity might have saved decades of sectarian warfare. The conservatives in the Republican movement were not only unsupportive of militant workers running the show but actively tried to stop them by using the Irish Republican Police to try make them stop. http://www.academia.edu/22067087/The_Irish_Working_Class_and_the_War_of_Independence

corner of hells · 19-10-2018 9:54pm

BalcombeSt4 wrote: »

Like B-Specials throwing bombs on to top of school children in a playground & then finishing them of with gunfire. https://treasonfelony.wordpress.com/2016/02/04/the-weaver-street-bombing-and-not-dealing-with-the-past/ That's like something the Nazi's would have done.

The Provo's, INLA & Sticks did a lot of scumbag things, but I don't remember them targeting school children who were playing in a playground.
After the Reavey/O'Dowd & Kingsmill massacres in 1976 the UVF drew up plans to blow up a Catholic primary school & to kill 30 children, but called it of at the last minute because they were afraid of the backlash & security forces stamping down on them, because before that the police & army let them do whatever they liked. - http://www.nuzhound.com/articles/irish_news/arts2007/jul9_UVF_planned_kill_30_children.php

Intentionally targeting school children has been a feature of loyalist scumbagery over the years. During the Holy Cross dispute they targeted little girls with graphic insults, stones, balloons filled with urine, pipe bombs & rifle fire. Yes, the pictures that flashed across the world were horrific but this was pretty much a weekly occurence for the great loyalist "culture". - https://www.irishtimes.com/news/school-considers-legal-action-over-protests-1.331363

The UDA tried to kill Catholic women & children on a bus during the height of Mad Dog Adairs sectarian madness

Well I could be here all day doing this.

Point is I could pick out any war or conflict over the last century and I could find "cold blooded murder" all over it, war is cold blooded murder. Of the top of my head American soldiers massacred over 600 old men, women & children at Mi Lai & burned the village to the ground.
And that's not a feature specific to the US Army, it's just a plain cold feature of war.

And I'm not a die hard Republican either. (not that it's anyones business anyway)
I think it would have been a much better idea if SF & the IRA had taken a back seat during the "War of Independence" & the Labour movement had taken control & encouraged the Catholic & Protestant working class to unite & supported actions like the 1919 Belfast general strike, the workers taking over of mills, factories, fisheries, lands of absentee landlords and encourgaed the setting up of more Soviets along with Limerick & Arigna Mines. Working class unity might have saved decades of sectarian warfare. The conservatives in the Republican movement were not only unsupportive of militant workers running the show but actively tried to stop them by using the Irish Republican Police to try make them stop. http://www.academia.edu/22067087/The_Irish_Working_Class_and_the_War_of_Independence

Why would you call yourself BalcombeSt4 ?

bobbysands81 · 19-10-2018 11:15pm

Aegir wrote: »

but you see no irony in supporting an army that harassed, tortured and killed Irish people, or carried out some of the worst atrocities these islands have seen in the last 100 years?

He doesn’t support the British Army.

timthumbni · 20-10-2018 12:06am

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

timthumbni wrote: »

You could set your watch every year by the poppy thread mostly populated by armchair provos who have never set foot in Norn Iron. I will be wearing mine but then again I live in NI. I would think it’s a very small number who actually wear one down Mexico way. But where there’s a rant there’s a way I suppose.

Genuinely interested, would the money from the poppies going to former British soldiers, such as the guys who murdered Aidan McAnespie and the innocent people in Ballymurphy, not be a good enough reason not to buy one?

Yes, straight into their pockets chum.......

timthumbni · 20-10-2018 12:08am

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Aegir wrote: »

but you see no irony in supporting an army that harassed, tortured and killed Irish people, or carried out some of the worst atrocities these islands have seen in the last 100 years?

He doesn’t support the British Army.

Hey booby. A banquet by Irish Americans in honour of your namesake and others ( the also rans)

Makes you proud I’m sure ,....

bobbysands81 · 20-10-2018 12:32am

timthumbni wrote: »

Hey booby. A banquet by Irish Americans in honour of your namesake and others ( the also rans)

Makes you proud I’m sure ,....

Booby?

That’s hilarious! Is it Ulster Scots?

You win the argument.

Just like you did all these times too...

timthumbni wrote: »

Aw well at least Mary Lou remembered Booby just as he always should be, what?

timthumbni wrote: »

Nope. I quite enjoy the fact that an Irish terrorist like wee booby has a street named after him in IRAN..... And also a burger bar... It gives me loads of laughs. As I said everyone gets what they deserve...

timthumbni wrote: »

Not in vain Mary. He got a street named after him in that well known bastion of democracy Iran. And a burger bar.... (And I'm serious here) I'm not actually taking the piss out of terrorist booby but there is an actual burger bar in Iran named after him.

Scrumptious...... And not disrespectful at all......

timthumbni wrote: »

Booby. Drinking this early on an old firm day is not good for you. Especially on an empty stomach like yours.

Celtic acting like Celtic does. Maybe they could fly famine flags whenever their Palestinian ones start to fray.

timthumbni wrote: »

All I wonder is what booby sands (per Mary Lou) would think about it???

Poppy sellers in Scotland harassing you??? Hmmmn...

timthumbni wrote: »

No, I mean booby... ask Mary Lou... and its not a very serious name at all. I'm sure most people snigger at it tbh.

Cringe.

Sunny Disposition · 20-10-2018 12:45am

timthumbni wrote: »

Yes, straight into their pockets chum.......

https://www.britishlegion.org.uk/get-involved/ways-to-give/fundraising-appeals/poppy-appeal/

100% they are entitled to the money.

Leaving the predictable whatabouttery of both sides out of it, surely that’s a good enough reason not to contribute?
If those incidents had been taken very seriously there could be an argument for contributing, but surely it’s inappropriate when the money goes to people on the basis of being part of an institution that not only slaughtered innocent people, but has covered it up and refused to punish those responsible?
I’m not an IRA sympathizer by any means but contributing to the poppy appeal is obscene in Ireland, given the slaughter on Bloody Sunday and at Ballymurphy.
It’s a shame it has got tied up with Irish guys, my own relatives included, who fought in the World Wars. They’re not around to benefit, the guys who shot up Ballymurphy will.

[Deleted User] · 20-10-2018 2:25am

Bricriu wrote: »

Absolutely true, and another result of our being colonised.

Liadh Ní Riada, before she talked about wearing the Poppy on 'Clare Byrne Live', talked about being modern and mature. God, this mental malaise has even infected Republicans.

Well said. And I note from this thread people are bending over backwards to "prove" how enlightened they are by saying Irish-born people who fought in the British Empire's forces in WWI deserve to be commemorated by an independent Irish state. Eh, why? They were, for the day, very highly paid mercenaries, using violence to achieve the aims of the very same British supremacist/imperialist cult which was keeping Ireland subjugated. They were British soldiers, fighting for the interests of that state which were predicated upon suppressing the wishes of the Irish for independence. Let unionists/imperialists/jingoists/Brexiters honour these people who fought for their political interests.

It is preposterous that any Irish person who is grateful for the existence of a sovereign Irish state would honour any person for their role in the service of the same British Empire that has always resisted Irish independence. If one is going to commemorate thugs in British uniform because they were born in Ireland, you might as well honour every other thug on the planet who is Irish-born. The Irishman who fought for the freedom of this small nation is worthy of honour. The Irish-born British soldier who fought to maintain British rule over non-British persons will never, ever be worthy of honour. Oh, and just because the person in question was one's "great, great, great grandfather" and you want to get all emotional about somebody you never knew does not make their actions either moral or excusable. Duh.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTS09G__CqQ

[Deleted User] · 20-10-2018 2:30am

Church on Tuesday wrote: »

I think it's a bit harsh to call them mercenaries TBH, for a lot of men it was a way to make a few bob and send it back to the wife and kids.

The vast majority went at the behest of Redmond for what they ultimately thought was for eventual Home Rule.

Eh no, no they didn't. This is one of the most common of the myths peddled in the attempts to make the thugs of the British Empire and their crimes acceptable to Irish people.

A paltry 24,000 of the c. 120,000 Irish-born 'Catholics' who fought in WWI did so under the banner of Redmond's National Volunteers. And overall, despite the incessant propaganda, the total "Irish" (the propaganda figure loves to inflate the contribution by putting the self-declared British loyalists in Ireland under the description "Irish") contribution to the British Empire's forces even before the Easter Rising was far inferior to the contribution of England, Scotland or Wales, never mind to Australia's 420,000 people who fought for it at a time when Australia had a similar population to Ireland. How often would that not-so-flattering reflection on Irish enthusiasm for fighting for the British Empire see the light of day in the Dublin media? Never. A bit of education right here.

This reality, like the reality of the comparatively high wages for joining (not so noble, so it's ignored in favour of a more flattering representation of their motivations), doesn't fit in with the "The Irish were so happy with British rule" narrative of the Anglo-Irish/West Brits who hark back to the glory days when their colonial class had every single one of the top jobs in every single one of the banks, insurance companies, breweries, distilleries and all the rest and the natives got the menial jobs like the hired plebeian thugs in the RIC or British Army, while the leadership was reserved for the colonial class - the same one in the British Army which mutinied in 1914 when democracy ran into their plans.

But heaven forfend that anybody would mention all that reality in this attempt to portray British rule as some sort of popular thing with the natives who were oblivious to the myriad and exceedingly creative facets of the British colonial boot on them (it was only, for instance, when Sinn Féin became the largest party in 1918 that the British decided to change the entire voting system to PR-STV as that favours smaller parties). And, yeah, when talking about the supposed "democratic mandate" of supposedly "non-violent" politicians like John Redmond don't mention the minuscule number of (well-off and therefore conservative) people who had a right to vote, or that most HR MPs were not even challenged at "election" time, or indeed that Redmond was decidedly keen to embrace violence and glorify blood sacrifice when it was Irish-born British soldiers who were dying for the British Empire (most notoriously in his letter after Gallipoli).

Like the long disproven rubbish about the 1916 rising allegedly being universally unpopular at the time - that view was peddled by the unionist press in Dublin - the twist has much more to do with the Unionist need to portray support for Irish freedom as "marginal" and their colonial boot on us as "acceptable".

AdrianLM · 20-10-2018 3:07am

Anyone Irish person thinking of wearing the poppy should listen to this first:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbre5Fs9m8I

Go on Sinead!!

corner of hells · 20-10-2018 7:44am

AdrianLM wrote: »

Anyone Irish person thinking of wearing the poppy should listen to this first:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbre5Fs9m8I

Go on Sinead!!

If I stuck the Poppy's in my ears , would it block out the sound.

droidman123 · 20-10-2018 8:43am

I think the israelies should become more mature too,maybe they could welcome some of the far right nazi supporters from eastern germany,maybe even contribute some funds to the far right political party in germany,heck why not go the whole hog,make a collection in israel to erect some statutes of hitler,himmler,and goebels,show the world how they have moved on and how they have matured as a nation

Edgware · 20-10-2018 9:28am

Roll on November 12th and we will be done with this ****e for another year

The Rape of Lucretia · 20-10-2018 10:25am

droidman123 wrote: »

I think the israelies should become more mature too,maybe they could welcome some of the far right nazi supporters from eastern germany,maybe even contribute some funds to the far right political party in germany,heck why not go the whole hog,make a collection in israel to erect some statutes of hitler,himmler,and goebels,show the world how they have moved on and how they have matured as a nation

Well that would be just dumb. But welcoming the supporters and communication could not but be positive. A shared understanding always helps both sides improve and defuse tension.
And as Ireland, indeed Israel has some maturing to do but is in a difficult position to do so by its flawed very existence.
A problem Eire does not have today. It indeed very closely intertwined with the UK, with no fundamental issues or differences. And perceived issues are only ones held on to be those unable to see that times have changed.

You are either part of the solution, or part of the problem - you either leave the past behind and forge a better future, or remain mired in and never move on from the mindset and conflicts of history.

[Deleted User] · 20-10-2018 10:37am

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

A problem Eire does not have today...

Hehe. You try way, way too hard. One of your soulmates in the British Crown's DPP did that in 1989 in the British request to extradite Dessie Ellis. When the case arrived in the High Court the judge refused to extradite because "Éire" was not the name of the state in the language that the request was made. Dessie walked free. Keep cutting off your nose to spite your face there.

corner of hells · 20-10-2018 11:13am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Hehe. You try way, way too hard. One of your soulmates in the British Crown's DPP did that in 1989 in the British request to extradite Dessie Ellis. When the case arrived in the High Court the judge refused to extradite because "Éire" was not the name of the state in the language that the request was made. Dessie walked free. Keep cutting off your nose to spite your face there.

Much better than the good old Kangaroo court where judge ,jury and executioner's were provided and if they really liked you they'd provide funeral services and grave.

weldoninhio · 20-10-2018 11:54am

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Two wrongs don’t make a right.

It’s not so much their aims that I have a problem with. It’s their barbaric methods.

Your grandfather took the British coin to murder Germans. 2 wrongs eh?

Church on Tuesday · 20-10-2018 2:14pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Eh no, no they didn't. This is one of the most common of the myths peddled in the attempts to make the thugs of the British Empire and their crimes acceptable to Irish people.

A paltry 24,000 of the c. 120,000 Irish-born 'Catholics' who fought in WWI did so under the banner of Redmond's National Volunteers. And overall, despite the incessant propaganda, the total "Irish" (the propaganda figure loves to inflate the contribution by putting the self-declared British loyalists in Ireland under the description "Irish") contribution to the British Empire's forces even before the Easter Rising was far inferior to the contribution of England, Scotland or Wales, never mind to Australia's 420,000 people who fought for it at a time when Australia had a similar population to Ireland. How often would that not-so-flattering reflection on Irish enthusiasm for fighting for the British Empire see the light of day in the Dublin media? Never. A bit of education right here.

This reality, like the reality of the comparatively high wages for joining (not so noble, so it's ignored in favour of a more flattering representation of their motivations), doesn't fit in with the "The Irish were so happy with British rule" narrative of the Anglo-Irish/West Brits who hark back to the glory days when their colonial class had every single one of the top jobs in every single one of the banks, insurance companies, breweries, distilleries and all the rest and the natives got the menial jobs like the hired plebeian thugs in the RIC or British Army, while the leadership was reserved for the colonial class - the same one in the British Army which mutinied in 1914 when democracy ran into their plans.

But heaven forfend that anybody would mention all that reality in this attempt to portray British rule as some sort of popular thing with the natives who were oblivious to the myriad and exceedingly creative facets of the British colonial boot on them (it was only, for instance, when Sinn Féin became the largest party in 1918 that the British decided to change the entire voting system to PR-STV as that favours smaller parties). And, yeah, when talking about the supposed "democratic mandate" of supposedly "non-violent" politicians like John Redmond don't mention the minuscule number of (well-off and therefore conservative) people who had a right to vote, or that most HR MPs were not even challenged at "election" time, or indeed that Redmond was decidedly keen to embrace violence and glorify blood sacrifice when it was Irish-born British soldiers who were dying for the British Empire (most notoriously in his letter after Gallipoli).

Like the long disproven rubbish about the 1916 rising allegedly being universally unpopular at the time - that view was peddled by the unionist press in Dublin - the twist has much more to do with the Unionist need to portray support for Irish freedom as "marginal" and their colonial boot on us as "acceptable".

You've written an awful lot there but you haven't really said anything either.

A lot of men went as Irish volunteers but not ALL Irish men fought under that banner.

Most Irish men believed going to war was the right thing to do for Ireland in the long term, Volunteer or no.

Many other's went because they needed the money to put food on the table back home.

And then many more (usually younger) men went for a bit of adventure with the general consensus being the war would be over by Christmas.

And the Rising was patently unpopular at the time, we all know the reasons why it did become popular after, but lets not kid ourselves here, the Rising or rather support for insurrection had, at best, middling support throughout the country even if Eoin McNeill's countermanding order was never issued it would have been a pretty middling affair.

The general populace of Ireland, like most British colonies at the time, were just getting on with their life with a fairly sound infrastructure in place. I know for hard-line republicans that's a bitter pill to swallow but there you go.

You also make mention of Redmond being keen to "embrace violence and glorify blood sacrifice", this is really nothing new for the time frame and the general moral thinking of the time. Pearse, after all, wrote of the Great War as a "blood sacrifice" and the spilling of blood in fields as a good thing. That was the general mindset of how war should be at the time.

Honestly I really cannot understand the continued demonization of the brave Irish men who fought in WWI, hopefully the younger generations coming up will be given a more balanced discourse in this particular and proud aspect in Irish history - over the last few years, 2014 to present and it has been heartening to see the beginnings of that discourse been played out in the public arena.

Zebra3 · 20-10-2018 2:22pm

Church on Tuesday wrote: »

The general populace of Ireland, like most British colonies at the time, were just getting on with their life with a fairly sound infrastructure in place. I know for hard-line republicans that's a bitter pill to swallow but there you go.

Yeh, life under British occupation was just grand for most people across the globe.

Makes you kinda wonder why they didn't stay in all those colonies for ever to continue their mission to civilising the savages.

Church on Tuesday · 20-10-2018 2:25pm

Zebra3 wrote: »

Yeh, life under British occupation was just grand for most people across the globe.

Makes you kinda wonder why they didn't stay in all those colonies for ever to continue their mission to civilising the savages.

I said most British colonies.

Zebra3 · 20-10-2018 2:27pm

Church on Tuesday wrote: »

I said most British colonies.

Which ones?

Church on Tuesday · 20-10-2018 2:32pm

Zebra3 wrote: »

Which ones?

I think we all know the colonies were infrastructure was fairly sound versus the colonies were certain liberties were taken.

Odhinn · 20-10-2018 2:44pm

Church on Tuesday wrote: »

...............

The general populace of Ireland, like most British colonies at the time, were just getting on with their life with a fairly sound infrastructure in place. I know for hard-line republicans that's a bitter pill to swallow but there you go.

..............

Like the "jewel in the crown"?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orissa_famine_of_1866

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_of_1876%E2%80%9378

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bengal_famine_of_1943

Or Kenya, where land was systematically seized from Africans and given to ex-officers and colonists up until the 1960's.

Church on Tuesday · 20-10-2018 2:48pm

Odhinn wrote: »

Like the "jewel in the crown"?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orissa_famine_of_1866

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_of_1876%E2%80%9378

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bengal_famine_of_1943

Or Kenya, where land was systematically seized from Africans and given to ex-officers and colonists up until the 1960's.

Again, I said most colonies.

You should take care to read every single word in a post and not just knee jerk react to the first thing that sticks out.

Odhinn · 20-10-2018 2:54pm

Church on Tuesday wrote: »

Again, I said most colonies.

You should take care to read every single word in a post and not just knee jerk react to the first thing that sticks out.

Any colony with a non-european/anglo saxon majority was run along racial and sectarian lines. That would be the majority of British run territories - "most colonies".

NIMAN · 20-10-2018 2:58pm

Edgware wrote: »

Roll on November 12th and we will be done with this ****e for another year

You serious?

Not in the UK, poppies will be on show LONG after that date. Long after it.

The Rape of Lucretia · 20-10-2018 3:15pm

Every thing must be taken in context, and of its time. In WWI, 1.1 million of our fellow countrymen died. To dismiss that fact, those men, and ignore, or even complain about their commemoration, is utterly ugly and disrespectful.

People dont have to wear the poppy, and I wouldnt advocate or expect all to do so. But it should be respected for what it is, a significant proportion of Irish people in the south probably should be wearing them, and the vast majority should be generally supportive of the commemoration whether they actually wear it or not.
No one should be against it. Anyone who does, needs a serious think about who they are as human beings.

Church on Tuesday · 20-10-2018 3:31pm

Odhinn wrote: »

Any colony with a non-european/anglo saxon majority was run along racial and sectarian lines. That would be the majority of British run territories - "most colonies".

You know perfectly well the point I'm making and being pedantic for the sake of it.

The French were just as bad as the British for pillaging those particular countries.

Poppy

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