Media: The State demonises Adoptees as a threat to their Natural Parents

The_Conductor · 29-06-2019 8:16am #1

A very pertinent article in yesterday's Irish Times written by Caitríona Palmer detailing how the proposed Adoption Bill does little other than heap further abuse on adopted people.

Article here

I would strongly advise people contact their national representatives- and the Minister's office to outline their frustrations and abhorrence of the proposed legislation.

The proposed legislation (which is the 2016 bill- its taken 3 years to get here) continues to formally blocked adopted people's rights to their original birth certificates and early life files and it puts an onus on Tusla to track down and contact birthparents before original birthcerts are released to us.

I'd also strongly encourage people to read the comments others have written after the article- and to leave their own comments.

This legislation is not fit for purpose and simply continues the formalisation of stigma attached to being adopted- while giving Tusla and others the legislative right to turn us away at every possible opportunity, without information.

Please read the article, please comment on it- and please contact the Minister to express your abhorrence of her bill.

Iragh5 · 04-08-2019 12:43pm

My mother is dead 30 years and last December my life was shattered, I was told in a 5 minute phone call by tusla that she had given birth to a baby boy in 1959. Once he had his birth certificate he could go off and find my brother and sisters and I before we even knew of his existence, trawl social media stalk our Facebook pages pry into our lives. I feel no connection to this person, I didn’t give birth to anyone, I didn’t give anyone up for adoption, why should my privacy be invaded like this? As he knew about us before we knew about him he had no personal pictures visible on his profile on FB - a dog!!!! There are no protections in place for people like us, no counseling offered. Everyone talks about the triangle- adoptee, birth mother and adoptive parents, but it’s actually a square - children of birth mothers marriage!!! But we don’t matter apparently ,everyone in the triangle is counseled to the hilt but we deserve no such respect. So I wish the adoptee had never seen his birth cert, it’s not always about the adoptee and birth mother you know. The birth mother knew she gave birth, adoptee knew he was adopted and adoptive parents knew they adopted the child soo why is the party in this situation- us - treated so badly???? So no I won’t be contacting the minister expressing my abhorrence of the bill

Ballycarton · 04-08-2019 10:57pm

Hello Iragh 5,

Sorry to see the shock you must have felt when that Tusla Social worker called you with news of your half brother. Did your late mother take this secret to the grave with her and never tell you? Unfortunately, the Adoption Act of 1952 did not factor in situations like yours which has just happened. Nor did it ever forsee the advent of the internet, or social media.

Birth Certificates under the 1864 act are Public Records and can be accessed and obtained by any member of the public at any time. Your brother knowing his date & place of birth was entitled to seek his original birth certificate from the Civil registration office as its a public record. From that information on that certificate, he managed to find you & your family via Social media. There is no legislation to prohibit this type of activity.

Did you tell the Tusla Social worker that you or the rest of your family wanted no contact what so ever? If you did, this would have been relayed to him by the Social worker.

If you didn't there really is not very much you can do about it. As I said situations like this are not provided for in Legislation.

But perhaps put yourself in your brother's shoes, he is looking for his birth mother and his heritage and also any relevant medical information. Perhaps you could put it in a letter which the Tusla Social worker could forward on to him with the proviso still of no contact what so ever.

Wishing you all the best.

Ballycarton.

Iragh5 · 05-08-2019 11:21am

Yes my mother took her secret to her grave. Of course I know there is nothing I can do about social media etc, but I do object to MY information being made available to the adoptee before I knew anything about him and the whole situation giving him ample opportunity to trawl through my social media, even though it is private my profile picture and that of my family was in view unlike theirs which had been switched to a picture of a dog and a skyline before I had become aware of him. I should have been approached before any information was given to him. Not much point in telling tusla, an inept and toothless body that poisons everything it touches, in telling him not to contact me when he already has all my information, why would he do what they tell him??? That horse has already bolted. All the sympathy is for the adoptee, nobody thinks of people in our position, we don’t seem to deserve any counseling and we were the only ones who this news hit us out of the blue, yet someone who knew they were adopted for the bones of 60 years is treated with kid gloves and counseled to the hilt. He waited almost 60 years to search, for his adoptive parents to die to go looking for his birth mother because he didn’t want to hurt them, when he found out his birth mother was dead he didn’t give us the same consideration knowing we almost certainly didn’t know about him. He lost one mother and came looking for mine, he took away all good memories of my mother, he actually took her, I threw away every photo and trace of her out of my house and she is never mentioned anymore, so no I won’t be sending any photos or medical information on - he can ask TUSLA they are very good at giving out details of my private life without my knowledge or permission, they surely have all that as well

The_Conductor · 05-08-2019 7:53pm

Iragh5 - a few things.

The secrecy and shame that many people associate with adoption- was a societal thing. It wasn't unique to Ireland, but we sure as hell took it to a whole different level. Your mother obviously was affected by this- and she felt unable to tell you of your sibling, probably because she feared how you would take it. Unfortunately- from the little information you've imparted here- especially how you feel its changed your relationship with your Mum and have evicted all photographs of her from your home- she probably made the correct decision not to tell you.

Far from counseling being readily available to adopted people and birthmums- there is a significant waiting list (at one stage I was told the list was over 4 years long). There are precious few resources put into adoption, for anyone, its not that the partner or other children of a birthmum (or indeed an adopted person) are being excluded- its simply that the level of resources put into adoption is not commensurate to the demand for services. Counseling 'to the hilt' (as you put it)- is a fairy story, its patchy at best and more often than not completely and utterly non-existent.

Facebook and Social Media- they may be the new tools for the modern world, however, they are dangerous. People overshare the whole time. If you don't want to share information at random with people you've never met- don't share things with the world. If you post things publicly- you are sharing with the world, the whole world- including in this instance, with your sibling. I'm hammering it into my kids the whole time how careful they have to be with things they post on Facebook or PSN etc its- a lesson that we all need to learn. You can be 100% certain that many people are prying at you online- in this instance one of those people was your brother- however, it could just as easily have been someone else (to say nothing of data harvesting by commercial entities).

You have no interest in having anything to do with your brother- that is your prerogative- however, you cannot simply proclaim that he cannot have any interest in your wider family. Whether you realise it or not- anyone at all can have an interest in a family. Anyone can go into the General Registers Office in Dublin, Roscommon or Cork- and get copies of birth certificates for people they've never met before in their lives. A birth, a marriage or a death certificate- are public documents- copies of which are available to anyone. There are even some organisations out there who habitually copy *all* birth/marriage and death records- such as the LDS, for their own purposes. The 'adopted children's register' is also maintained by the GRO- and had you so chosen to do so- you are as entitled to view and purchase extracts from it- as he or anyone else is.

Your brother can request any medical records as they pertain to him and is entitled to them- as GDPR and FOI does not apply where any associated parties have passed away. He cannot however seek any records that pertain to you- or any other living person, regardless of any familial connections he may have.

Your information was not made available to your brother- any information he ascertained about you (or anyone else)- was information that you freely posted online where anyone can see it.

I'm not sure why you feel that you should have been approached before he was given any information. The only information that Tusla will have given him is his own birth certificate and a brief information note regarding the recorded circumstances as they pertained to his adoption, and your mother's situation at that time (in a lot of cases this information is wholly inaccurate- and should be treated as suspect until confirmed elsewhere).

Your information was not supplied to him- and I'm actually a little confused why you imagine that you should have a right to veto him getting (any) information (esp. as the limited information he will have been given- he could find elsewhere, as they are a matter of public record).

As for 'sympathy'- honestly- if there was sympathy, they might actually fund the services for the various parties involves in adoption (yourself included)- instead of the current situation where there are waiting lists that last years- to even get a pack of 'non-identifying information' which more often than not is a fairy story recorded by the nuns at the time in case anyone ever came back to look for it. There is no sympathy in adoption- for anyone- least of all the adopted person. The current legislation- further disenfranchises adopted people by making them jump through additional hurdles- to get hold of information that anyone who isn't adopted imagines is supplied as a matter of course. Even the likes of a long form birth certificate that people need to apply for a passport- is not available for an adopted person.

The 1952 legislation is far from perfect- and the various amendments down the years- have been nought but sticking plasters. Adoption was a societal answer to the simple fact that people are human and have had children out of wedlock since time began. In an Irish context- it was compounded by the involvement of the Catholic church and its practices of secrecy and all the ills that have been exposed in recent years. There isn't a chance to right many of the wrongs of the past- but the least that can and should be done- is a service put into place to fairly assess the rights and obligations of all those affected by adoption- yourself included. These will out of necessity include the current contact preference register- where you have the right to indicate you wish to have no contact with your brother.

Personally- I don't understand why you have taken such an extreme step as reassessing your relationship with your late mother- and removed her photographs etc from the house. However, that is your prerogative. If you continue to share things online- that is also your prerogative- however, you really can't start moaning when your brother checks in every now and then. If you don't wish to share with the world- don't, but you need to be conscious of the fact that your brother hasn't done anything wrong here, you freely gave access to information, you can rescind that access if you so choose to do so, however, you can't change history.

Life is strange, circumstances can be completely incomprehensible- and history, is in the past. We can't change history- we can make a conscious choice to try and make the most of the situations we find ourselves in.

I recognise the situation you're in, very clearly- and can only say I'm genuinely saddened that Ireland is still the way it is- while we like to advertise how liberal and modern we are- deep down, some things may never change.

I genuinely wish you the very best- and I hope that you see that the grass isn't greener on the other side for your brother, its just a different set of circumstances.

Ballycarton · 05-08-2019 9:13pm

Hello again Iragh 5,

Like you, my own mother took the secret of her firstborn daughter who she gave up for adoption in the 1950's to the grave with her. She never told any of us about her even though I was a Rhesus baby which would have been the glaring medical evidence of a previous pregnancy. The fact was never revealed to anyone. I don't think my late father even knew either. We only found out about it when she posted a message looking for details of our late mother on a website. It appears that her daughter got her birth certificate from the GRO in Roscommon and emailed the entry to her via smartphone. The stigma attached to pregnant single girls and children born out of wedlock in the '40s, '50s, 60''s& 70's was so great that a culture of secrecy was the norm. These girls were treated as outcasts and were disowned by their families. As the Conductor has rightly posted that all birth, death, marriage , and adoption registers can be inspected by the public in either Roscommon or Dublin.

Tusla does Not give any information to adoptees unless the birth mother has passed away and even then they have rigorous procedures in place regarding information distribution. That is why I am also confused as to why you are saying your information was given away. Tusla social workers would never disclose information to anyone. From the first day my sister was immediately accepted into our family, she & I worked together as a team to get whatever information regarding her birth & adoption from Tusla. We had to jump through many hoops to get that adoption file. But we got it. Reading through it makes for very sad & distressing reading.

Posting anything on Social Media Forums such as Facebook, Twitter, Instagram etc means that you are posting your personal information for all & sundry to see.

You can, of course, make your Facebook page private then only you and selected people can view your information.

As the Conductor mentioned resources for counselling are very limited and Tusla has very long waiting lists for their counselling services.

However the Social worker we dealt with told us that the charity Barnardos offer free counselling services to all parties affected by adoption.

All the very best.

Ballycarton

Iragh5 · 05-08-2019 9:29pm

Wow The_conductor how judgemental, I’ll make this short. I don’t know where you get the impression that I share everything online!!! I’m only on fb and it’s rock solid private except for cover photo and profile picture which are public for everyone, my point being he knew about me before I knew about him and he had his changed. Also Tusla are very fast and loose with details with what they gave me about him and not at my urging and have admitted as much about sharing details of myself and my siblings. Tusla are a disaster. The truth is if my mother was alive and was approached by tusla I know 100% she would have rejected the adoptee because that’s the kind of person she was, she was hard as nails, and I would never have know about the adoptee. My mother came from a wealthy background, she was the girl from the big house. She always had notions about herself but was a complete hypocrite and this is what I cannot square, she spoke with venom about unmarried mothers and ‘illegitimate ‘ children as she called them and was never nice or showed any sympathy or charity to them, views I do NOT share. I am nothing like her thankfully. So this is why I have wiped any memories of her from my home because it’s so pathetic, who the hell did she think she was!!! Truth be known this is how I wished it had played out - I wished adoptee had approached 35 years earlier, or we had been told by my mother of his existence and we would have helped her search but the only way I can explain is it took him 59 years to reach out and he knew he was adopted all those years so how can I be expected having known none of this and without a shred of support to suddenly accept this, maybe I need 59 years too. I think he left it too late

Iragh5 · 05-08-2019 9:32pm

I won’t be commenting anymore on this subject as I find it too upsetting

Ballycarton · 05-08-2019 10:43pm

Hi again Iragh 5,

I have to say that I am quite shocked as to how Tusla did give out your information as they don’t normally do that. Whatever way it was done was very inappropriate and of course I do understand how upsetting this whole episode is for you.

I would like to wish you all the very best & look after yourself.

Ballycarton.

The_Conductor · 06-08-2019 7:27am

Iragh5 - honestly, I think you're reading too much into the information that Tusla released to you.
Your brother most probably gave permission for them to release information to you- they will not have released commensurate information to him- without your express permission. The fact that you got his information- does not mean he got your information. Tusla do not operate in the manner in which you're suggesting- they are far too careful to do so (regardless of what you or I may privately think of them as an organisation). I really think you're putting two and two together and getting 5 in this instance. If it would put your mind at rest- ring them and confirm precisely what they released to your brother- I think you'll be surprised at just how little it is (I've an information pack here myself- wholly aside from how bland and airbrushed it is- its also entirely inaccurate). Give them a ring for your own peace of mind.

Iragh5 · 06-08-2019 8:44am

Conductor I have rang them and I had to push them to admit but admit they did, it was confirmed to me in a phone call exactly what was released, which is basically everything and I have a 90 year old father who knows nothing about all of this and I have to face him every day and lie to him and I’m afraid that the adoptee will approach him, it really is mental torture. a Tusla really are a loose cannon and play by their own rules from the top down, and the adoptee hadn’t given permission either to the amount of information I was given. Tusla operate as they see fit and as I say it’s from the top down, we were shown zero respect.

Hermy · 06-08-2019 9:26am

Iragh5,

I know you said you wouldn't be commenting any further on the matter but I'm really interested to know why you say your life was shattered by the revelation that you had another sibling.

I'm an adoptee and in recent years I found my birth mother and two siblings I didn't previously know about.
For me this was a mostly positive experience so I'm wondering why the discovery of another sibling troubles you so much.

I'd really appreciate your perspective on the matter as it's a side of the debate I haven't encountered before.

Iragh5 · 06-08-2019 10:20am

The fact that my mother is dead 30 years, the type of woman she was, a catholic fundamentalist who railed against any kind of liberalism, who had not one nice thing to say about unmarried mothers and illegitimate children as she called them so to discover that she actually had an ‘illegitimate’ (her words not mine) is mind blowing. I have no one to ask, she’s not here to answer any questions and if she was alive I wouldn’t know anyway. Can you not see how that would be a shock??? The adoptee is 60 years old, as I say I think I need 60 years to process this. I have no Ill will towards the adoptee whatsoever only towards tusla and the way it was handled in a 5 minute phone call and afterwards. But it’s devastating the lies and hypocrisy, I have nothing nice to say to adoptee about our birth mother, i feel alone as all sympathy and support is one sided. The best way I can explain this is imagine your adoptive parents are dead 30 years and you never knew you were adopted and then at 50 years of age tusla rang you and told you in a 5 minute phone call you’re actually adopted I think you’d find that shocking and devestating

Hermy · 06-08-2019 1:49pm

Thanks for your response.

You're right, I would find it shocking to be told news like that, but I don't know if I personally would be devastated in a case where it's someone else's adoption I'm learning about rather than my own.

I think from my first reading of the thread I was struck by the anger that was directed at your new-found sibling and I found that hard to grasp. But I see from this post that it's your mother and TUSLA that you direct most of that anger at which I think is perfectly reasonable. Indeed, I would share your view of TUSLA, an organisation not fit for purpose who made my search much more difficult than it ought to have been by appointing me a social worker who was by times incompetent, deceitful and unprofessional.

That being the case might it not be worth considering pursuing a relationship with your sibling in the hope that something good might come of a bad situation. Like any relationship it might not work out but perhaps there's a chance for both of you to get a better understanding of your mothers life at that time. And even if you have nothing nice to say about your mother, if I were in this situation I'd sooner you told me an unpleasant truth rather than a sugar-coated lie.

Also, and this is purely speculation on my part, but I wonder was your mothers railing against unmarried mothers perhaps a result of how she was mistreated herself. I know my birth mother suffered a lot as a result of having children taken from her and perhaps this is how that manifested itself in your own mother.

Iragh5 · 06-08-2019 2:42pm

Like I said it took him 59 years to come looking, so I really am not at a place for any kind of meeting at this time and I may never be, maybe I need 60 years to process this too. People can’t seem to grasp this, but I wish him nothing but the best I really do but I’m not much good to him or myself now. Really not commenting any more, this is too hard, I thought it might help.
Iragh5

robo · 06-08-2019 3:02pm

Iragh5 - I too am an adoptee and I do feel for you. I think what your situation shows is that there are so many sides to adoptions in Ireland. I think you have to do what is best for you. There are a lot of different people on this forum who have had different experiences with TULSA than what you have experienced. I read your post yesterday & it has been on my mind for the past 24 hours.
I don't want to offend you or belittle your situation, as you can not help how you feel and especially when you are hiding this from your Dad.

Personally speaking, I only recently had a conversation with my adoptive Mother about perhaps searching for my birth family and the main reason I want to do this is to tell my birth mother that I hold no grudge and that times were different but for whatever reason if she did not want to meet with me, then I would not push for that and I would not like to cause any distress for her family.

I really don't think that your adopted brother would want to cause your family hurt (I know I don't know this for a fact) - I know that you have said he waited 59 years, well I am not as old but it has taken me a few decades to decide if I would ever contact my birth family. I have only so far registered my details on the register to be contacted if anyone was looking to contact me and have not yet pursued it any further yet.

From reading your posts, you have had a very big shock & especially so in how you perceived your Mother's attitude to unmarried mothers etc - so would you not look at counselling or talking to someone who is not a family member or an adopted person (which is pretty much the main users of this part of Boards) so you can move forward without feeling the way you do now, which seems like a lot of anger inside. You have your life to lead & this just doesn't have to be something that festers so much anger inside of you.

Hermy · 06-08-2019 3:32pm

Iragh5 wrote: »

Like I said it took him 59 years to come looking, so I really am not at a place for any kind of meeting at this time and I may never be, maybe I need 60 years to process this too. People can’t seem to grasp this, but I wish him nothing but the best I really do but I’m not much good to him or myself now. Really not commenting any more, this is too hard, I thought it might help.
Iragh5

I do understand that it's hard - my own journey has been tough too at times - but mine was instigated at my choosing whereas yours wasn't which makes it so much harder for you.

Perhaps posting here hasn't helped you but it has helped me, and others I'm sure, by presenting a very different perspective on this difficult subject and I'm grateful to you for that.

In the meantime be good to yourself.

Media: The State demonises Adoptees as a threat to their Natural Parents

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