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General Irish Government discussion thread [See Post 1805]

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  • Administrators Posts: 53,127 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    The Ceann Comhairle job is not a Gov appointment, and is a secret vote by Dail members. There is no penalty on Gov TDs for voting how they like, so no real job for the whip.

    Of course, but the government put forward a candidate, and the government has a healthy majority, and it's embarrassing for a government to be unable to win the vote in such circumstances.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,257 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    awec wrote: »
    Of course, but the government put forward a candidate, and the government has a healthy majority, and it's embarrassing for a government to be unable to win the vote in such circumstances.

    Well, parties put forward candidates for President and get miffed when they do not win a non-political post.

    Explain that.


  • Administrators Posts: 53,127 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Well, parties put forward candidates for President and get miffed when they do not win a non-political post.

    Explain that.

    We have elections for Presidents?


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,095 ✭✭✭✭Frank Bullitt


    A day after making a balls of the vote, and Chambers get this.
    The Dáil has voted for a ‘disgusting’ special salary top-up for superjuniors, including a first-time Senator swiftly appointed for the Greens.

    Two TD superjuniors, Hildegarde Naughton (FG) and Jack Chambers (FF) will now enjoy €140,000 annually.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,993 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    Gintonious wrote: »
    A day after making a balls of the vote, and Chambers get this.

    There is no pay-rise.

    Two MofS get the allowance, the new law allows the third to receive it.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,467 ✭✭✭golfball37


    Geuze wrote: »
    There is no pay-rise.

    Two MofS get the allowance, the new law allows the third to receive it.

    One. The new law allows 2 extra. It’s shameful imo. The state the country is in. Not to mention FF opposed it vehemently when Mary Mitchell O’Connor was denied the same top up.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,371 ✭✭✭blackwhite


    It really shows a stunning level of naivety to think they wouldn’t face a backlash over this.

    In the scheme of the public finances it’s not material - but anyone with half a brain should have seen how it would be perceived publicly. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,793 ✭✭✭CrabRevolution


    Gintonious wrote: »
    A day after making a balls of the vote, and Chambers get this.
    I'm not particularly angry at politicians giving themselves pay rises-that's just what they do.

    What annoys is why we bother having any limits or guidelines on pay, when as soon as they prove inconvenient to politicians they are just legislated out of existence.

    I mean what was the point in ever having them in the first place if they're for all intents and purposes non-binding?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 479 ✭✭rgace


    blackwhite wrote: »
    It really shows a stunning level of naivety to think they wouldn’t face a backlash over this.

    In the scheme of the public finances it’s not material - but anyone with half a brain should have seen how it would be perceived publicly. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot

    It really shows how put of touch they are, absolutely playing into Sinn Fein's hands.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,435 ✭✭✭Imreoir2


    I'm not particularly angry at politicians giving themselves pay rises-that's just what they do.

    What annoys is why we bother having any limits or guidelines on pay, when as soon as they prove inconvenient to politicians they are just legislated out of existence.

    I mean what was the point in ever having them in the first place if they're for all intents and purposes non-binding?

    Part of the problem is that pay rates in general are largely devoid of meanng or any relation to objective metrics. Footballers get paid vastly more than nurses for reasons that have nothing to do with the nature of their work or the reletive effort or skill required.

    Its hard to imagine what an objectivly fair system of determining pay rates for public representatives would look like.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,916 ✭✭✭ronivek


    golfball37 wrote: »
    One. The new law allows 2 extra. It’s shameful imo. The state the country is in. Not to mention FF opposed it vehemently when Mary Mitchell O’Connor was denied the same top up.

    You're incorrect; the law was changed from allowing 2 to claim the allowance to allowing 3 to claim it.

    FF opposed it when the allowance would have led to potentially 3 FG Ministers of State receiving it. The current scenario is one Minister of State from each Government Party will receive it; which I would suggest is quite a bit more reasonable.
    blackwhite wrote: »
    It really shows a stunning level of naivety to think they wouldn’t face a backlash over this.

    In the scheme of the public finances it’s not material - but anyone with half a brain should have seen how it would be perceived publicly. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot

    Or maybe they determined it was unfair to have two out of three members of Government who performed the same duties being paid differently for the same work? And decided that in spite of the inevitable complaints that it was the right thing to do?
    Imreoir2 wrote: »
    Part of the problem is that pay rates in general are largely devoid of meanng or any relation to objective metrics. Footballers get paid vastly more than nurses for reasons that have nothing to do with the nature of their work or the reletive effort or skill required.

    Its hard to imagine what an objectivly fair system of determining pay rates for public representatives would look like.

    I'm not sure anyone anywhere in the world has figured out an 'objectively fair system for determining pay rates' which works in the context of our modern society.

    As to the pay rates for civil servants they're freely available and TDs would fit into the higher scales for Principal level civil servants; with members of the cabinet and committees slightly higher.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 479 ✭✭rgace


    ronivek wrote: »
    FF opposed it when the allowance would have led to potentially 3 FG Ministers of State receiving it. The current scenario is one Minister of State from each Government Party will receive it; which I would suggest is quite a bit more reasonable.

    I would suggest that the Ministers of State are either required and worth that salary or they are not.

    To suggest it is reasonable now just because they are members of different parties is ridiculous.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,371 ✭✭✭blackwhite


    ronivek wrote: »
    Or maybe they determined it was unfair to have two out of three members of Government who performed the same duties being paid differently for the same work? And decided that in spite of the inevitable complaints that it was the right thing to do?

    I don’t dispute the “fairness” in terms of ensuring each SJ is treated equally - but on the other hand I’m not convinced on the merits of the super-juniors getting such a top-up to begin with.
    Have they done anything to demonstrate that these super-juniors actually do work any harder than the other junior ministers? Other than attending cabinet meetings (but not participating, or taking any legal responsibilities that Cabinet do)?

    What has irritated me on this one is that they plowed ahead knowing that they’d be giving the opposition an easy stick to beat them with. There’s an old stereotype of FF only being interest in Govt for themselves - IMO that’s not necessarily fair, but things like this add more ammo to anyone who wants to push that narrative.

    The really sickening this is that, in the scheme of Govt spending its an irrelevancy. There’s hundreds of more serious instances of Govt waste that could be pointed at - but those don’t sit as easily with the populist rabble-rousers.
    Idiots equating it to nurses pay just show how bad their grasp of numbers is. Maybe we should cut the €16k from all three SJs and split it evenly across all of our 65k registered nurses - I’m sure they’d really appreciate the extra 74c each per year!


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,916 ✭✭✭ronivek


    rgace wrote: »
    I would suggest that the Ministers of State are either required and worth that salary or they are not.

    To suggest it is reasonable now just because they are members of different parties is ridiculous.

    I agree with your first point. The fact they are all given the allowance would suggest the cabinet and Government parties agree.

    If you can't see that there are significant differences between:
    1) Increasing the number of fully remunerated super junior Ministers under a single-party Government with 12/15 cabinet ministers and 15/18 Ministers of State all FG; versus:
    2) Increasing the number of fully remunerated super junior Ministers under a three-party coalition Government including FF where each party has designated a single super junior Minister to attend cabinet...
    ... then I don't know what to tell you.

    As to the exact reasons FF changed their mind or voted against the change in 2017 I can only guess; but they were clearly two very different sets of circumstance.
    blackwhite wrote: »
    I don’t dispute the “fairness” in terms of ensuring each SJ is treated equally - but on the other hand I’m not convinced on the merits of the super-juniors getting such a top-up to begin with.
    Have they done anything to demonstrate that these super-juniors actually do work any harder than the other junior ministers? Other than attending cabinet meetings (but not participating, or taking any legal responsibilities that Cabinet do)?

    I mean surely they do more work (longer hours, presumably additional or at least different responsibilities) than the other Ministers for State. Assuming that is the case wouldn't they be entitled to extra remuneration when compared to the other Ministers for State?

    As to where the precise figure comes from I'm not sure. I'm also fairly sure both Sinn Fein and the media have the figure wrong and it is in fact an allowance of €17,205 as of last September.
    blackwhite wrote: »
    What has irritated me on this one is that they plowed ahead knowing that they’d be giving the opposition an easy stick to beat them with. There’s an old stereotype of FF only being interest in Govt for themselves - IMO that’s not necessarily fair, but things like this add more ammo to anyone who wants to push that narrative.

    Personally I'm perfectly happy with our Government doing what they deem to be right and proper irrespective of whether the populist mouth-pieces berate them for it. I really don't think that alone should be a valid reason to not push ahead with a given piece of Government business.

    What irritates *me* is the fact significant time and energy is expended by our elected representatives in the Dail over such trivial matters; and that our media can't even seem to cover such matters with any accuracy.


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,098 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Anyone know if Hourigan has set a record for quickest loss of the whip after election? Patrick Nulty was also very fast in 2011 IIRC


  • Administrators Posts: 53,127 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    L1011 wrote: »
    Anyone know if Hourigan has set a record for quickest loss of the whip after election? Patrick Nulty was also very fast in 2011 IIRC

    She should be removed from the parliamentary party.

    The greens are such a shambles.


  • Registered Users Posts: 39,366 ✭✭✭✭Itssoeasy


    One of the Green ministers abstained in a vote earlier and isn't losing the whip because Eamonn Ryan is discusing the issue with MM and LV.

    Also, gavan Reilly had a screenshot of nessa hourigan and Eamonn Ryan talking in what looked like a less then friendly fashion going on the body language of birth of them.

    Also, the leas ceann comhairle Catherine connelly has suspended the dail because Paul Murphy wouldn't resume his seat. All go tonight.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,164 ✭✭✭efanton


    https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/second-green-party-td-breaks-ranks-after-hourigan-resignation-1012846.html

    Bad enough Neasa Hourigan breaking ranks, but now it has been revealed that Joe O'Brien, a minister no less, refused to vote for a government motion.

    I seriously cant see this government lasting a year.
    If the Green party doesn't implode before then they will probably pull out when the money is not forthcoming for their green environment projects.

    This government started with 84 seats, a small majority in the Dail by any standard, and if two of them are already unreliable its only a matter of time before a government motion is defeated.


  • Registered Users Posts: 28,703 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    efanton wrote:
    This government started with 84 seats, a small majority in the Dail by any standard, and if two of them are already unreliable its only a matter of time before a government motion is defeated.


    Similar things were said about the previous government also, give it time, things might settle down eventually


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,257 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    I think it is Green Party TDs showing they will not vote for things not in the PfG, and so cannot be relied upon as lobby fodder. It requires the three party leaders to be better at controlling their own TDs.

    It is early days, and if the last fortnight is anything to go by, the Gov will not make it to Christmas, but there is a six week recess.

    Plenty of time to regroup.


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  • Administrators Posts: 53,127 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Hourigan and O'Brien have their speaking rights stripped for 2 months. They got off light.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,257 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    awec wrote: »
    Hourigan and O'Brien have their speaking rights stripped for 2 months. They got off light.

    Six weeks of which, the Dail is on recess and so no speaking at all. So two weeks of speaking restriction. So lighter than light.


  • Registered Users Posts: 945 ✭✭✭Colonel Claptrap


    awec wrote: »
    Hourigan and O'Brien have their speaking rights stripped for 2 months. They got off light.

    As minister of State, Joe O'Brien should have been sacked.

    I say that as somebody who voted for him.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 127 ✭✭New Era


    After watching that car crash of a press conference 're "living with covid plan", imo there is no way back for this shambolic of a "government".

    Confusion, mixed messaging and bewilderment was a "thing in the past" says Micheal, Leo and co. Today was d-day for the FFG and greens, but yet again the gobbledygook coming out of those "three wise men" was breathtaking and quite disturbing.

    When the country needs strong and robust leadership at this most challenging time for the country and with a no deal brexit, potentially on the horizon, what we got today was more of the same issues that have blighted this embarrassing and shameful administration.

    If you were living in the capital, can you please explain what the message was to the people of Dublin? When the presser ended, I was left even more confused than I ever was. What a mess.

    Stand by for the attacks from Mary Lou and the rest of the opposition in the coming days ahead. Privately they must be getting quite excited about a prospect of a snap general election, which is more likely than ever before. Quite soon I believe.

    Another day and once again the govt is all at sea. The chances of budget 2021 to take place next month, bringing the curtain down on this govt is considerably higher now. How can they get the country on side again after all the waffle we saw an hour ago in Dublin castle? Good riddance is all I will say when this failed administration leave government buildings and are consigned to the history books.


  • Registered Users Posts: 945 ✭✭✭Colonel Claptrap


    What Dail arithmetic makes you think an election is imminent?


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,098 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    What Dail arithmetic makes you think an election is imminent?

    FG can't be seen to cause it and are very unlikely to lose any overboard.

    FF have multiple people who are anywhere from a bit (more) miffed (Lawless) to outright calling for it to end already (O'Cuiv); if say three of them go its showtime.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,257 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    What Dail arithmetic makes you think an election is imminent?

    I think the arithmetic is the poll numbers showing FF = 10% and FG = 35%.


  • Registered Users Posts: 945 ✭✭✭Colonel Claptrap


    L1011 wrote: »
    FG can't be seen to cause it and are very unlikely to lose any overboard.

    FF have multiple people who are anywhere from a bit (more) miffed (Lawless) to outright calling for it to end already (O'Cuiv); if say three of them go its showtime.

    O'Cuiv is calling for a change of leader. Not a change of government.

    Besides, it would be suicide for FF to want an election now. 10% in the polls.


  • Registered Users Posts: 945 ✭✭✭Colonel Claptrap


    I think the arithmetic is the poll numbers showing FF = 10% and FG = 35%.

    But what triggers the collapse of the government? They have a majority and I dont see any rebels lining up.

    FG will want the government to collapse but don't want to be seen as the ones causing it.

    FF will want to cling on for dear life and hope for a bounce in the polls.

    Greens are an unknown. But I don't see them pulling out any time soon.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,435 ✭✭✭Scoundrel


    Fg and SF are absolutely dying for another election FG on 35% in the polls SF on 27% and the irony being it's the chaos within FF on 10% that'll probably bring it about.

    I suppose there are those in FF that think if they ditch Martin and go a different way they can claw themselves back or maybe they think it's time to get this catastrophic defeat out of the way and rebuild from there?


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