Reccomend a good book on the history of ireland

JoeSchmoe · 05-10-2008 11:02pm #1

I recently wanted to fill in my gaps and general ignorance on the history of our land so I bought "the couse of Irish History"

http://www.amazon.com/Course-Irish-History-T-Moody/dp/1570980152

but I find it's written in a very staid and matter of fact manner and frankly boring, some parts are basically just lists of names/places and general times.
it does very little to keep my interest and make history "come alive"

can you recomend some thing written in a less academic style, and has a balance between and historical facts and figures and passages about normal life/ social and culture theories.,

Something with a bit more personality or a more flowing writing style?

MarchDub · 06-10-2008 11:58am

How about these two books - both written in accessible style and can be bought as a couple from Amazon. First one was the basis of the RTE/PBS series about Ireland up to the 12th century and the second is a follow up book that takes up where the first one ends. Both very easy to read.

http://www.amazon.com/Search-Ancient-Ireland-Origins-Neolithic/dp/156663525X/ref=pd_bxgy_b_text_b

http://www.amazon.com/Search-Irelands-Heroes-English-Invasion/dp/1566637562/ref=ed_oe_p/105-2082423-3218030

JoeSchmoe · 06-10-2008 1:24pm

Thanks, they seem to be more in the vein (or is it vain?) of what I'm after, nice one

JWAD · 06-10-2008 2:08pm

JoeSchmoe wrote: »

Thanks, they seem to be more in the vein (or is it vain?) of what I'm after, nice one

The Transformation of Ireland 1900-2000 by Diarmaid Ferriter is excellent and covers the last century in an excellent manner.
I don't think you can find one book which will tackle the history of this island in any reasonable detail. I'm reading Dermot Keogh's book about antisemitism in Ireland meself and also one of his about Ireland's 'neutral' status during the second world war.

McArmalite · 07-10-2008 12:19pm

A History Of The Irish Working Class by Peter Berresford Ellis. OUTSTANDING book. Peter Berresford Ellis is an English man ( father from Cork ) and writes for the Guardian. It isn't the sort of Marxist slant on Irish history you might suspect. Starts with the ancient Celtics and describes their advanced society, a society based on the common good and not individual greed. Each chapter goes down thru the centuries and written appreciatively about the national struggles and achievements and how they were a part of the national and class struggle, how the trade union movement worldwide was pioneered by Irishmen and not the the British as it is often wrongly claimed. ( Almost all of the major unions in England were formed by Irishmen, likewise in America and Australia. Indeed the origins of the unions have roots in 'terrorist' clandestine organisations such as the Steelboys, Molly Maguires, Defenders, RibbonMen, etc of the 17th and 18th century ).

First class book. http://www.amazon.com/History-Irish-Working-Class-Preface/dp/0745311032

funktastic · 11-10-2008 8:49pm

Ferriter's book is good for 20th century. The standard on this period for years was FSL Lyons 'Ireland Since the Famine'. Try also Joseph Lee's 'Ireland 1912-'85' - a classic on Irish Twentieth Century history. Dermot Keogh's 'Twentieth Century Ireland' is probably less academic than Lee's and very enjoyable. Keogh's is a series of books on the history of Ireland published by gill - all of which are very readable.

convert · 11-10-2008 11:04pm

Roy Foster's book 'Modern Ireland' is pretty good and provides a nice intro to Irish history from c. 1500s onwards. It's also accurate without taking a nationalistic point of view.

If you have a look in any bookshops you'll come across numerous books on Irish history with varying levels of detail, etc. Some are pretty good, while others skip a lot of important aspects of Irish history which are vital to understanding where historians are coming from, especially if you're reading a book which is just dealing with later history (i.e. 1800s onwards). What I'd suggest is that you go into your local bookshop and have a flick through the different books that are on offer and buy what suits you. Everybody has different tastes and preferences, and there's no substitute for actually looking at the book itself rather than purchasing it online.

JoeSchmoe · 12-10-2008 8:00pm

thanks for all your help

McArmalite · 13-10-2008 2:53pm

convert wrote: »

Roy Foster's book 'Modern Ireland' is pretty good and provides a nice intro to Irish history from c. 1500s onwards. It's also accurate without taking a nationalistic point of view.

If you have a look in any bookshops you'll come across numerous books on Irish history with varying levels of detail, etc. Some are pretty good, while others skip a lot of important aspects of Irish history which are vital to understanding where historians are coming from, especially if you're reading a book which is just dealing with later history (i.e. 1800s onwards). What I'd suggest is that you go into your local bookshop and have a flick through the different books that are on offer and buy what suits you. Everybody has different tastes and preferences, and there's no substitute for actually looking at the book itself rather than purchasing it online.

" It's also accurate without taking a nationalistic point of view. "
No, it's West brit tripe :rolleyes:

JWAD · 13-10-2008 3:10pm

McArmalite wrote: »

No, it's West brit tripe :rolleyes:

How so?

Fratton Fred · 13-10-2008 3:12pm

McArmalite wrote: »

" It's also accurate without taking a nationalistic point of view. "
No, it's West brit tripe :rolleyes:

OP, I think this sums up nicely why it is so difficult to get an impartial book on Ireland

MarchDub · 13-10-2008 4:10pm

McArmalite wrote: »

" It's also accurate without taking a nationalistic point of view. "
No, it's West brit tripe :rolleyes:

History books published during the past 30 years or so have been subjected to various "classifications" in an attempt to reveal the author's point of view.
Foster is considered to be of the "revisionist" school which is by now largely discredited for a number of reasons - mostly that they were too influenced by current affairs in NI and fearful of escalating the situation there. Later scholarship - especially since the 1990s - now emphasizes strict source material -no matter what conclusions can be drawn - and is less concerned about the impact on current affairs in NI.

Latchy · 13-10-2008 4:14pm

Leon Uris worte a book called 'Ireland a terrible beauty' .It was first published in 1975 and a gerat account of iirish history over several centuries up till that time .

McArmalite · 13-10-2008 7:13pm

latchyco wrote: »

Leon Uris worte a book called 'Ireland a terrible beauty' .It was first published in 1975 and a gerat account of iirish history over several centuries up till that time .

No offence intended Latchyco and I'm not tyring to be sarcastic, but it 's a complete work of fictio. It maybe based on some historical eveents and is VERY PPRO nationalist, ( what internatiional suppport/sympathy do the brits evevr get.

Abraham · 13-10-2008 8:01pm

There is no written account of the Irish people that enjoys wide acceptance. The factionalism that is so much a part of our national character is reflected in our literature. Doesn't much matter what books are nominated as fulfilling the need. As soon as a name is mentioned there will be an immediate rustle in the undergrowth as the mortar men and snipers alike strive to get position for a strike.

Nevertheless you might try "Irish History for Dummies" penned by Mike Cronin, Boston College, Dublin ........see under www.dummies.com

Cronin has written extensively and knowledgeably on aspects of Irish heritage, St. Patrick, etc in a number of publications. He continues to do so and reveals many hometruths along the way.:D

MarchDub · 13-10-2008 8:24pm

Abraham wrote: »

There is no written account of the Irish people that enjoys wide acceptance. The factionalism that is so much a part of our national character is reflected in our literature. Doesn't much matter what books are nominated as fulfilling the need. As soon as a name is mentioned there will be an immediate rustle in the undergrowth as the mortar men and snipers alike strive to get position for a strike.

Nevertheless you might try "Irish History for Dummies" penned by Mike Cronin, Boston College, Dublin ........see under www.dummies.com

Cronin has written extensively and knowledgeably on aspects of Irish heritage, St. Patrick, etc in a number of publications. He continues to do so and reveals many hometruths along the way.:D

Nevertheless Cronin is considered to be one of the most "revisionist" of them all. His "Dummies" soft peddles through the Famine for instance.

He also gets the so called "Celtic Invasion" period completely wrong - he is out of touch with - or ignorant of - the archeology of the last 40 years. No, would not recommend.

EamonnKeane · 26-10-2008 1:52pm

McArmalite wrote: »

A History Of The Irish Working Class by Peter Berresford Ellis. OUTSTANDING book. Peter Berresford Ellis is an English man ( father from Cork ) and writes for the Guardian. It isn't the sort of Marxist slant on Irish history you might suspect. Starts with the ancient Celtics and describes their advanced society, a society based on the common good and not individual greed. Each chapter goes down thru the centuries and written appreciatively about the national struggles and achievements and how they were a part of the national and class struggle, how the trade union movement worldwide was pioneered by Irishmen and not the the British as it is often wrongly claimed. ( Almost all of the major unions in England were formed by Irishmen, likewise in America and Australia. Indeed the origins of the unions have roots in 'terrorist' clandestine organisations such as the Steelboys, Molly Maguires, Defenders, RibbonMen, etc of the 17th and 18th century ).

First class book. http://www.amazon.com/History-Irish-Working-Class-Preface/dp/0745311032

?? The Celts practised slavery and had distinct hierarchies. Even among the pre-Celts skeletons have been found that suggest that this man did very little work and ate a lot of meat

McArmalite · 26-10-2008 3:46pm

EamonnKeane wrote: »

?? The Celts practised slavery and had distinct hierarchies. Even among the pre-Celts skeletons have been found that suggest that this man did very little work and ate a lot of meat

Is that right. Ah gee schucks.....Think I'll go and join Fine Gael or the Pd's now.

MarchDub · 27-10-2008 3:08pm

EamonnKeane wrote: »

?? The Celts practised slavery and had distinct hierarchies. Even among the pre-Celts skeletons have been found that suggest that this man did very little work and ate a lot of meat

McArmalite wrote: »

Is that right. Ah gee schucks.....Think I'll go and join Fine Gael or the Pd's now.

The "Celts" were not an ethnic group - Celtic was a culture which took hold in Ireland and McArmalite is correct that the culture had some very interesting - and modern, in a sense - aspects to it.

The Brehon Law system [Celtic] as practiced in Ireland could be considered to be far and above the Feudal system and English law system which replaced it in Ireland. For one thing, married women retained property rights under Brehon Law and this right was specifically taken way by English Law and stated as such in the 1606 English government decree concerning rightful law in Ireland.

Another "modern" aspect of Brehon Law was the leadership "dail" or discussion that resulted in an election for leadership. English law decreed this to be unlawful and insisted on primogeniture or the succession of the eldest son.

Hugh O'Neill brought on the Nine Years War because he allowed himself to be elected and inaugurated head of the O'Neills under Brehon Law. Elizabeth I sent in an army to Ireland in response. Under English Law at the time elections were an illegal way to choose leadership - under Irish Brehon Law they were the only way to determine leadership.

Zebra3 · 04-11-2008 4:24am

What's the best book on the Civil War?

Pgibson · 04-11-2008 5:20pm

Abraham wrote: »

There is no written account of the Irish people that enjoys wide acceptance..

One book comes close.

"The Illustrated History of Ireland from AD400 to 1800" by Mary Francis Cusack.

It was required reading for Irish nationalists in the nineteenth century.

(REAL nationalists..not today's fascists.)

The book was written in 1868 and Mary Francis Cusack died in 1899 but the book is still fresh today.

(You will need other books for post 1800 of course.Don't be put off by the fact that she was a nun. She was an historian of the very highest rank.)

Get it here:
http://www.amazon.com/Illustrated-History-Ireland-400-1800/dp/B0015T6CRU/ref=dp_kinw_strp_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1225813534&sr=1-3

.

McArmalite · 08-11-2008 2:21pm

Zebra3 wrote: »

What's the best book on the Civil War?

The Singing Flame by Ernie O'Malley - OUTSTANDING book. Ernie was on the IRA's side during the civil war. He was in the Four Courts when they were attacked by the Free State army to start the war. He manged to escape but was caught several months later in a safe house in Dublin after a shootout with some soldiers in which he was wounded several times ( not the first time he was wounded either ) with three bullets remaining lodged in his back for the rest of his life.

Although obviously written from a Republicans viewpoint, he didn't have the bitterness that others had for the Free State army whom he had fought. It's a long time since I read it but if I rememebr rightly, he talks about the total silence for an hour or two in Kilmainham prison ( from which he escaped, a very exciting chapter in the book ) when they heard Collins had been killed, no matter what, all the IRA men had great respect for Collins.

Outstanding read.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Singing-Flame-Memoir-Civil-1922-24/dp/0947962328

getz · 20-11-2008 2:56pm

i have a lot of old newspapers fro early 19 century one i have just looked at may be of interest to irish people its THE GRAPHIC a weekly paper dated saturday january 12 1889--the artical in says-- IRISH EVICTIONS= the falcarragh evictions have attracted considerable attention from the violence displayed; but,while sympathising with the poor dupes who at the bidding of a tyrannical organisation find themselves ousted from their holdings in the depth of winter and who also in some cases have been committed to prison for their acts of lawless violence,it is well to remember that ,if these evictions are unjustifiable,then all attemps to enforce any legal agreement,either in ireland or elsewhere,are equally unjustifiable. in fact in great britian and in ireland also, in all transactions save those between occupiers and owners of land, the claimant demands, and usually obtains, the uttermost farthing,whereas in ireland the evictions of recent years have only been under-taken after the refusal of concessions on the part of the land-owners which, in any other country in the world, would be regarded as extraodinarily liberal. and in most cases, too the tenants would willingly have accepted these concessions. but they were overawed by the sinister organisation of the plan of campaign. surely the government ought to take active measures to curb these mischievous terrorists, and not let the suffering fall solely on the constables,the soldiers,and the deluded tenants. in any continental country such mischief- makers would meet with but scant mercy. meanwhile,the irish people,who are shrewd enough when they please, must be beginning to percieve that the rent which the plan of campaign through terrorism saves to certain occupiers,is a poor compensation for the injury caused in the other directions,the people of youghal declare that they are being ruined by the consequences of the ponsonby estate evictions. the shopkeepers are forbidden to sell to the persons who work the evicted farms, and the produce of those farms is sent elswhere.the agitators evidently act on the principle of the french jacobin who wrote;tout va bien ici le pain manque; dristress begets discontent, and discontent just suits the advocates disorder --i personally cannot make head nor tail of what it means, but joeschmoe if you want this paper let me know and i will post it off to you

MarchDub · 20-11-2008 7:41pm

getz wrote: »

i have a lot of old newspapers fro early 19 century one i have just looked at may be of interest to irish people its THE GRAPHIC a weekly paper dated saturday january 12 1889--the artical in says-- IRISH EVICTIONS= the falcarragh evictions have attracted considerable attention from the violence displayed; but,while sympathising with the poor dupes who at the bidding of a tyrannical organisation find themselves ousted from their holdings in the depth of winter and who also in some cases have been committed to prison for their acts of lawless violence,it is well to remember that ,if these evictions are unjustifiable,then all attemps to enforce any legal agreement,either in ireland or elsewhere,are equally unjustifiable. in fact in great britian and in ireland also, in all transactions save those between occupiers and owners of land, the claimant demands, and usually obtains, the uttermost farthing,whereas in ireland the evictions of recent years have only been under-taken after the refusal of concessions on the part of the land-owners which, in any other country in the world, would be regarded as extraodinarily liberal. and in most cases, too the tenants would willingly have accepted these concessions. but they were overawed by the sinister organisation of the plan of campaign. surely the government ought to take active measures to curb these mischievous terrorists, and not let the suffering fall solely on the constables,the soldiers,and the deluded tenants. in any continental country such mischief- makers would meet with but scant mercy. meanwhile,the irish people,who are shrewd enough when they please, must be beginning to percieve that the rent which the plan of campaign through terrorism saves to certain occupiers,is a poor compensation for the injury caused in the other directions,the people of youghal declare that they are being ruined by the consequences of the ponsonby estate evictions. the shopkeepers are forbidden to sell to the persons who work the evicted farms, and the produce of those farms is sent elswhere.the agitators evidently act on the principle of the french jacobin who wrote;tout va bien ici le pain manque; dristress begets discontent, and discontent just suits the advocates disorder --i personally cannot make head nor tail of what it means, but joeschmoe if you want this paper let me know and i will post it off to you

The Graphic was a British weekly newspaper - which competed with the London Illustrated News in format. It usually supported the British Gov point of view in news reporting. What you are reading is a very one sided and pejorative view of the Plan of Campaign supported by Parnell, Davitt and the Land League as a non violent way of trying to protect Irish tenants from eviction by absentee and rack-rent landlords.

Incidentally, the word "boycotting" comes from the Plan of Campaign against Captain Boycott, a land agent in Mayo for an absentee landlord.

boneless · 20-11-2008 7:54pm

Zebra3 wrote: »

What's the best book on the Civil War?

"Green Against Green" by Michael Hopkinson is an hisorical narrative of the period. I found it very informative and unbiased.

"The Singing Flame" is a personal memoir but is well written and as mentioned above, well balanced considering the stance O'Malley took after the Treaty.

BossArky · 28-11-2008 12:36pm

Teach yourself the History of Ireland

Eireannach · 05-12-2008 4:42am

JWAD wrote: »

The Transformation of Ireland 1900-2000 by Diarmaid Ferriter is excellent and covers the last century in an excellent manner.
I don't think you can find one book which will tackle the history of this island in any reasonable detail. I'm reading Dermot Keogh's book about antisemitism in Ireland meself and also one of his about Ireland's 'neutral' status during the second world war.

I agree The Transformation of Ireland was excellent. The amount and extent of Diarmaid's research is outstanding. He also takes a different approach in my opinion, focusing mainly on the social and cultural aspects of the century as well as the political and economic changes.

wjrobin64 · 07-10-2010 4:39pm

MY ancestor leased land from capt wm ponsonby in tullamore, ireland per griffiths valuation 1848. they were from a military family in the 1770's is it possible that these pensions passed on to family foe land entitlements ??

Abraham · 07-10-2010 6:35pm

McArmalite wrote: »

The Singing Flame by Ernie O'Malley - OUTSTANDING book. Ernie was on the IRA's side during the civil war. He was in the Four Courts when they were attacked by the Free State army to start the war. He manged to escape but was caught several months later in a safe house in Dublin after a shootout with some soldiers in which he was wounded several times ( not the first time he was wounded either ) with three bullets remaining lodged in his back for the rest of his life.

Although obviously written from a Republicans viewpoint, he didn't have the bitterness that others had for the Free State army whom he had fought. It's a long time since I read it but if I rememebr rightly, he talks about the total silence for an hour or two in Kilmainham prison ( from which he escaped, a very exciting chapter in the book ) when they heard Collins had been killed, no matter what, all the IRA men had great respect for Collins.

Outstanding read.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Singing-Flame-Memoir-Civil-1922-24/dp/0947962328

Don't often find myself agreeable on the side of virulent republicanism but will concede readily that O'Malley's book is a good read and truthful albeit from his perspective.

ValJester · 07-10-2010 8:34pm

There's a series called A New History Of Ireland which is essential if money's no object. Otherwise Was Ireland A Colony?, edited by Terrence McDonough is a very interesting look at the 19th Century, which is my area of special research interest when it comes to Irish History.

InTheTrees · 11-10-2010 5:06pm

I just finished Malachy mccourts history of Ireland:

http://www.malachymccourt.com/pages/history-ireland.html

Reccomend a good book on the history of ireland

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