How are the tolls legal, and why are they still there?

CrabRevolution · 19-05-2019 12:33am

gjim wrote: »

You can check it out on this toll calculator - says 56.20 for Paris to Bordeaux. Now that's expensive for 560km of motorway. At that rate it'd be 24 euro for Cork to Dublin.

We must have taken the scenic route so, as it was more than €56. It also included a tolled tunnel in Paris which doesn't seem to be in the route suggested by that planner.

Carawaystick · 19-05-2019 10:44pm

Idleater wrote: »

By that logic it's the same 3.10 to get all the way to Waterford by motorway, so you can reduce your cont per km massively by continuing all the way.

If you are going to complain about the cost of high tolls on motorways in France and ignore the free motorways on a motorway fire ahead.
Most journeys between J6-7 on the M50 are a lot shorter than to Waterford, which is not connected to Dublin by motorway in any case

tjhook · 05-06-2019 11:54am

cdaly_ wrote: »

It should but it's woefully inadequate. I don't have numbers to hand but motor tax probably pays for less than 25% of the cost of roads, pollution etc. The rest comes out of general taxation and EU structural funds.

I have seen similar statements in the past, but never the figures behind them. I think all motoring-related taxes need to be considered.

Using 2018 figures:

Cars in Ireland: 2,500,000
Spending on roads: €930,000,000
Road Spending per car: €363.60

Health costs per car over its lifetime: £7,714. This is a report from a UK university - I'm not sure how objective it is, but let's take it at face value and assume it also applies to Ireland.
Annualised over 12 years: approx. €724

Assuming an average car drives 16000km per annum, at 12km/l, that driver is paying approx. €1144 in tax on fuel per year.

I'm not sure what the average motor tax is in Ireland, but €280 is in the middle of the bands and seems reasonable to use.

An Avensis 18.l costs €30k, of which VAT and VRT comes to €12600. Assuming the car has a life of 12 years, this works out to €1050 per year.

Assuming an average car insurance bill of €500 per year, the insurance levy adds €25

I haven't included taxes on servicing, parking, NCT, tolls etc, but they would presumably add to the motoring-related taxes.

That adds up to road and health costs of €1087 per car per year, with motoring-related taxes of €2499 per car per year. We can quibble over the details, but I think drivers more than cover all costs relating to driving.

amcalester · 05-06-2019 12:46pm

Your health cost figure is only pollution associated costs, it’s ignores all other motoring related health costs.

How much was spent on the 146 fatalities in 2018 or the 825 serious injuries in 2015 (no figures for 2018)?

How much is spent on obesity related costs of which increased car usage is a contributing factor.

The RAC commissioned a report in 2012 that states

Road use generates costs which are borne by wider society instead of the motorist.

Link

Geuze · 05-06-2019 12:59pm

tjhook wrote: »

I have seen similar statements in the past, but never the figures behind them. I think all motoring-related taxes need to be considered.

Using 2018 figures:

Cars in Ireland: 2,500,000
Spending on roads: €930,000,000
Road Spending per car: €363.60

Health costs per car over its lifetime: £7,714. This is a report from a UK university - I'm not sure how objective it is, but let's take it at face value and assume it also applies to Ireland.
Annualised over 12 years: approx. €724

Assuming an average car drives 16000km per annum, at 12km/l, that driver is paying approx. €1144 in tax on fuel per year.

I'm not sure what the average motor tax is in Ireland, but €280 is in the middle of the bands and seems reasonable to use.

An Avensis 18.l costs €30k, of which VAT and VRT comes to €12600. Assuming the car has a life of 12 years, this works out to €1050 per year.

Assuming an average car insurance bill of €500 per year, the insurance levy adds €25

I haven't included taxes on servicing, parking, NCT, tolls etc, but they would presumably add to the motoring-related taxes.

That adds up to road and health costs of €1087 per car per year, with motoring-related taxes of €2499 per car per year. We can quibble over the details, but I think drivers more than cover all costs relating to driving.

You can't presume that VAT on cars or fuel should be earmarked for roads.

If that was the case, how would we pay for healthcare, education, etc.?

You should include just the following:

VRT
Excise on fuels
Motor tax

Geuze · 05-06-2019 1:00pm

epicmoe wrote: »

wasn't the line at the time that they would be there only until the road was paid for? it surely must be paid by now.

Do landlords stop charging rent once the building is "paid for"?

tjhook · 05-06-2019 1:10pm

amcalester wrote: »

Your health cost figure is only pollution associated costs, it’s ignores all other motoring related health costs.

How much was spent on the 146 fatalities in 2018 or the 825 serious injuries in 2015 (no figures for 2018)?

How much is spent on obesity related costs of which increased car usage is a contributing factor.

The RAC commissioned a report in 2012 that states

Link

I'd assume that much of the costs associated with accidents etc are covered by car insurance?

The link you provide is interesting, but its point is that tolls would reduce congestion in the UK. It doesn't (that I can see) say that motoring-related taxes are insufficient to cover the costs. In fact, it says that tolling could reduce other motoring taxes. The quote "Road use generates costs which are borne by wider society instead of the motorist." does not preclude other motoring taxes from being larger. The article is comparing fuel duties to the costs of the journeys traveled.

Either way, if each motorist in Ireland generates €1500 for the state after road costs and pollution related concerns, that's enough to covers a hell of a lot of other things.

Geuze wrote: »

You can't presume that VAT on cars or fuel should be earmarked for roads.

I don't. I just don't see evidence that motorists impose a financial burden on the state. In fact, it looks to me that drivers are generating funds for the state to fund a lot of other spending.

But if we want to talk about only the roads, and remove VAT, then we should compare like with like. Also remove the other costs that are funded by the VAT.

Road spending: €363 per car per year.
Motor tax + VRT: Approx. €1000 per car per year.
Oops, miscalculation. Motor tax + VRT: Approx. €755 per car per year.

Victor · 05-06-2019 1:18pm

Fundamentally, motoring fails to pay the whole costs it imposes, especially environmental costs, health costs and congestion costs.

tjhook wrote: »

I have seen similar statements in the past, but never the figures behind them. I think all motoring-related taxes need to be considered.

Taxes are not an admission fee, they are policy measures to discourage a behaviour or to redistribute excess income. Additionally, your choice of what should/shouldn't be included is rather selective.

tjhook wrote: »

Using 2018 figures:

Cars in Ireland: 2,500,000

How many are taxed? Not every vehicle is a car.

tjhook wrote: »

Spending on roads: €930,000,000

I suspect that is only spending on national roads and not spending on regional and local roads (95% of the road network and about 50% of the spending).

Road Spending per car: €363.60

Hence this number seems to be doubly wrong.

tjhook wrote: »

Health costs per car over its lifetime: £7,714. This is a report from a UK university - I'm not sure how objective it is, but let's take it at face value and assume it also applies to Ireland.
Annualised over 12 years: approx. €724

As mentioned, it is only one cost to the health service.

tjhook wrote: »

Assuming an average car drives 16000km per annum, at 12km/l, that driver is paying approx. €1144 in tax on fuel per year.

Not all taxes on fuel go to the state. The EU has a call on some of the import duties and VAT. The NORA levy goes to the National Oil Reserves Agency, which exists for the benefit of fuel users.

tjhook wrote: »

I'm not sure what the average motor tax is in Ireland, but €280 is in the middle of the bands and seems reasonable to use.

You include the cost of motor tax, but don't include the expenditure by local authorities on roads from the Local Government Fund (part funded by motor tax), LPT, rates, etc.

tjhook wrote: »

An Avensis 18.l costs €30k, of which VAT and VRT comes to €12600. Assuming the car has a life of 12 years, this works out to €1050 per year.

Again, the EU has a call on some of the import duties and VAT.

tjhook wrote: »

Assuming an average car insurance bill of €500 per year, the insurance levy adds €25

The insurance levy exists for the benefit of insured people. The Motor Insurers' Insolvency Compensation Fund has had to be topped-up by people who don't need insurance.

tjhook wrote: »

That adds up to road and health costs of €1087 per car per year, with motoring-related taxes of €2499 per car per year.

Your numbers seem to be quite off.

tjhook wrote: »

We can quibble over the details, but I think drivers more than cover all costs relating to driving.

But what about all the other state expenses on topics you haven't mentioned? Education, justice, defence, payment of debt interest?

tjhook wrote: »

I'd assume that much of the costs associated with accidents etc are covered by car insurance?

The costs of the road users, (usually) yes. The costs to the state, no.

whatever99 · 05-06-2019 1:22pm

salmocab wrote: »

Not suggesting it’s why we have them but on both the east link and west link if we got rid of them it would cause a disaster on the roads. The m50 especially.

Why would it cause a disaster? Cars would start speeding, as no need to slow down for the toll?

Victor · 05-06-2019 1:55pm

whatever99 wrote: »

Why would it cause a disaster?

Tolls suppress demand. Fewer tolls mean more driving and more congestion.

Cars would start speeding, as no need to slow down for the toll?

Do you slow down for the toll-booth-free toll on the M50?

tjhook · 05-06-2019 1:56pm

Victor wrote: »

Additionally, your choice of what should/shouldn't be included is rather selective.

This is fine, I was addressing the posts that said things like "motorways are expensive to maintain" and "The M50 cost €3.5 billion to build, not including maintenance".

As in my post above, what is included in calculations is fine once it's consistent. If we're talking about wider costs (e.g. health) then the wider taxation of motoring should be considered too. If we're only talking about the road costs, then a narrower set of motoring taxes may be relevant.

Victor wrote: »

Not every vehicle is a car.

Yes. However, I don't see how that changes any point. All (or nearly all?) vehicles pay tolls, and the other taxes/fees. And impose some cost on the state.

Victor wrote: »

I suspect that is only spending on national roads and not spending on regional and local roads (95% of the road network and about 50% of the spending).

Perhaps, but I can only go by the figures I see. The site I linked describes how the state spends its budget in any given year.

Edit: Article showing total road (including local) expenditure of €474m in 2017.

Victor wrote: »

Not all taxes on fuel go to the state. The EU has a call on some of the import duties and VAT. The NORA levy goes to the National Oil Reserves Agency, which exists for the benefit of fuel users.

I didn't know that. But I can't see it making much of a dent in the big picture.

Victor wrote: »

Taxes are not an admission fee, they are policy measures to discourage a behaviour or to redistribute excess income.

There's very little to disagree with in that statement. If the argument for tolling is that we need to change behaviour or redistribute more money from drivers, that is a valid point hat can be debated on its own merits. I just disagree with the seemingly widespread belief that motorists aren't paying their way, or that tolls are needed to fund road maintenance. I have yet to see Irish figures supporting such claims, and want to try to bring some objective figures to it.

dowlingm · 05-06-2019 5:55pm

gjim wrote: »

You can check it out on this toll calculator - says 56.20 for Paris to Bordeaux. Now that's expensive for 560km of motorway. At that rate it'd be 24 euro for Cork to Dublin.

That's one way to push people towards using trains etc. though especially when you look at how much France has invested in the TGV system... IE's fares don't look as bad when you have to pay as you use on the motorway!

Dravokivich · 06-06-2019 12:11am

Geuze wrote: »

You can't presume that VAT on cars or fuel should be earmarked for roads.

If that was the case, how would we pay for healthcare, education, etc.?

You should include just the following:

VRT
Excise on fuels
Motor tax

I was under the impression that all tax just got thrown into the same bucket, regardless of its source? If it's still the case, its label doesn't really matter at the end of the day. You're arguing over pennies.

Geuze · 06-06-2019 12:38pm

Dravokivich wrote: »

I was under the impression that all tax just got thrown into the same bucket, regardless of its source? If it's still the case, its label doesn't really matter at the end of the day. You're arguing over pennies.

Yes, most taxes are not earmarked, correct.

Although, motor tax and LPT are paid to local councils.

However, one can still do an exercise to compare motoring taxes with expenditure on roads.

[Deleted User] · 06-06-2019 12:45pm

Geuze wrote: »

Do landlords stop charging rent once the building is "paid for"?

Do you continue to pay a mortgage, once it is paid for?
Give the state ownership angle that mortgage analogy is more applicable, as they are owned by the people using them

donvito99 · 06-06-2019 2:48pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Do you continue to pay a mortgage, once it is paid for?
Give the state ownership angle that mortgage analogy is more applicable, as they are owned by the people using them

Everybody paid for the road's construction, but you ought to pay for causing congestion. Same as electricity, water, A&E etc.

tjhook · 06-06-2019 3:40pm

donvito99 wrote: »

Everybody paid for the road's construction, but you ought to pay for causing congestion. Same as electricity, water, A&E etc.

There is an argument for congestion charging. However, most tolls are on motorways around the country where congestion is not an issue. If anything, the tolls encourage drivers to divert to urban areas where congestion is already a problem.

The tolls may once have paid for the building of roads, but once the road is paid for, they're just a handy income stream. Same as any other levy that is left in place long after its original raison d'etre has ceased to be.

I have a car but mostly use public transport, so it would suit me better for the costs to shift from "static" costs (e.g. motor tax, VRT) to pay-by-use. But the current system is a hodge-podge that makes little sense.

Geuze · 06-06-2019 4:28pm

tjhook wrote: »

I have a car but mostly use public transport, so it would suit me better for the costs to shift from "static" costs (e.g. motor tax, VRT) to pay-by-use. But the current system is a hodge-podge that makes little sense.

Correct.

Fixed costs like VRT and motor tax should be reduced/reformed, and more pay-by-use taxes increased.

[Deleted User] · 06-06-2019 5:03pm

Geuze wrote: »

Correct.

Fixed costs like VRT and motor tax should be reduced/reformed, and more pay-by-use taxes increased.

Sure, if the objective is to move people away from more efficient modes of transport to private cars

magicbastarder · 06-06-2019 11:02pm

i've been known to opine many times that if cars had transparent fuel tanks people would be a lot more conscious of the impact of driving.
the analogy of popping to the shops every two or three weeks for 50 litres of milk is not accurate, as that's basically just flavoured water.
it's more akin to buying 50 litres of butter.

magicbastarder · 06-06-2019 11:04pm

DaCor wrote: »

Sure, if the objective is to move people away from more efficient modes of transport to private cars

not sure of the logic here. are you arguing that if fixed costs were lower, people would be more inclined to have the car sitting in the driveway (costing less to merely sit there), they'd be then inclined to use it more, even if actual use is more expensive?

Geuze · 06-06-2019 11:37pm

Geuze wrote: »

Correct.

Fixed costs like VRT and motor tax should be reduced/reformed, and more pay-by-use taxes increased.

By this I mean higher fuel excise / carbon tax, and congestion charges in cities.

But lower VRT.

Higher taxes on the use of cars in cities.

Sleeper12 · 07-06-2019 12:06am

epicmoe wrote:

Does it not infringe our right to travel? wasn't the line at the time that they would be there only until the road was paid for? it surely must be paid by now. whats going on?

You are free to use a different route so no infringement on right to travel. I'm not even sure if you have a right to "free" travel.

No it was never ever promised that they would be toll free once paid for. Ireland's first toll Bridge, East Link was to be owned by the East Link company for 30 years. This was to give them plenty of time to make money from their investment. It was then to be handled over to the government or DCC to run. This is exactly what has happened. There was never a suggestion that it would be toll free after 30 years.

You'll love this, there are plans afoot to add more tolls to the M50. Apart from raising money more toll sections will stop people hoping on for 2 or 3 stops & help free up the m50 for people making longer journeys. It's nuts that you can drive from bray to lucan toll free. There will be 2 or 3 tolls on that section within 10 years.

tjhook · 07-06-2019 7:28am

Sleeper12 wrote: »

You'll love this, there are plans afoot to add more tolls to the M50. Apart from raising money more toll sections will stop people hoping on for 2 or 3 stops & help free up the m50 for people making longer journeys. It's nuts that you can drive from bray to lucan toll free. There will be 2 or 3 tolls on that section within 10 years.

I can definitely see the attraction of enticing drivers to detour through the neighbouring residential and urban areas.
It doesn't seem like there's any plan - they're just lobbing random taxes and fees around the place.

Sleeper12 · 07-06-2019 7:37am

tjhook wrote:

I can definitely see the attraction of enticing drivers to detour through the neighbouring residential and urban areas. It doesn't seem like there's any plan - they're just lobbing random taxes and fees around the place.

The m50 is designed to get traffic from on side of the city to the other. It is part of the main route from North to wexford. Remembering heavy goods traffic are banned from the city. It was never designed to hop on & off after only a few stops. More tolls over the length of the m50 will keep it moving for the traffic it was designed for. Originally, at the time of design, there were to be toll booths on most entrances onto the m50. This idea was scrapped when we started getting mile long tailbacks at the west link toll booth.

First Up · 07-06-2019 7:46am

A higher toll for middle lane hoggers would work wonders.

[Deleted User] · 07-06-2019 7:55am

donvito99 wrote: »

Everybody paid for the road's construction, but you ought to pay for causing congestion. Same as electricity, water, A&E etc.

The only congestion in Fermoy/Rathcormac/Watergrasshill is caused by a toll and is traffic meant to use the motorway to bypass these places.

Esoecially dangerous heavy goods traffic going to Cork or Dublin

tjhook · 07-06-2019 8:59am

Sleeper12 wrote: »

More tolls over the length of the m50 will keep it moving for the traffic it was designed for.

I'm not trying to be smart, but how? People are using the M50 to get form A to B.

Maybe some people will decide not to travel at all. But given that most congestion is at rush hour(s), I'm guessing it's people traveling to/from work.

If everybody just pays the toll, it won't help congestion. But I don't think that's what will happen.

If some proportion of people divert through neighbouring areas, that will improve congestion on the M50. But I would have thought it will make things worse overall. I can see this happening to a significant extent.

Ideally, it could move people to public transport. And in some cases I imagine it will. But I take public transport. It is already crowded (see Irish Rail admitting they won't be able to supply more carriages for some years to come), and the routes don't work at all unless you're traveling to Dublin city centre (e.g. how to get from commuter areas like Lucan or Naas to Sandyford at rush hour?). And it's not priced particularly attractively, especially when you consider park and ride fees. The solution isn't to keep jacking up public transport fees, and then adding fees on driving just to match it.

Viable alternatives need to be provided before hitting the public with more taxes and fees.

magicbastarder · 07-06-2019 9:06am

it would be interesting to see how many people use the m50 but don't actually cross the bridge; i used to work on a team of seven people out in sandyford; i was the only person not to drive to the office. the other six did, and none of them hit the toll. which obviously unfair on those who do use the M50 and do pay a toll simply through a geographic accident. they're using a facility they are paying for, stuck behind a car which may not have paid for the same facility.

however, there is that question about the knock on effects of blanket tolling on the M50, what happens the surrounding areas if people bail out onto surrounding roads. it's using a stick without providing any carrots for people to find actual alternatives to driving.

[Deleted User] · 07-06-2019 9:18am

tjhook wrote: »

And it's not priced particularly attractively, especially when you consider park and ride fees. The solution isn't to keep jacking up public transport fees, and then adding fees on driving just to match it.

Viable alternatives need to be provided before hitting the public with more taxes and fees.

And this is what consecutive governments fail to grasp. Public transport should not be run as a solely "for profit" enterprise. It's function is to allow the smooth operation of our cities and surrounds. By doing such it drives further engagement in cities through workplaces, employees, and commerce and allowing for economical growth.
Investing in public transport should not be viewed as needing a direct ROI, from the transport, rather through economic growth taxes.

It's the same argument for "real" free 3rd level, as opposed to our "free" 3rd level but €3000 registration fees (2nd highest in EU and 1st after brexit). Invest in youth education to reap the benefits 10 years later through increased PAYE/PRSI and entrepreneurs succeeding in business.

Outside Dublin the tolls were put on Motorways, to allow for a PPP build, and there is no issue with this, BUT the motorways were supposed to be in place to allow for goods transport away from towns/villages, as a safety issue alongside cutting travel time.
HGV should not have to pay tolls on the motorway network IMHO. It will stop the diversion and danger they bring to population centres.

Also, no way in hell should there by 3 tolls from Cork to Dublin airport. It's a 250km stretch and really excessive, considering Belfast Dublin has 1

How are the tolls legal, and why are they still there?

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